[Returner]

Someone very close to me died a month ago totally unexpected. I have never been religious (even though Im confirmed and babtised etc) and after this I can't understand how anyone can be religious at all.
To me to be religious is that you have a strong belief in your mind that there is some sort of afterlife where your soul/brain somehow stays intact even after you have died. Call it heaven if you like.
But the thing is that in my experience so is there no proof whatsoever of any life after this....I havent been contacted by any soul..and I dont think any of you have either, except maybe in your dreams.

So lets look at the afterlife from a pure pragmatic view based on what we know today: (the visions in the bible are not included)
We knew nothing about the world before we were born..we had no great insight/memorys of any "soul world" before we were born..there was nothing before we came out through our mothers vagina..zip..nada.
And by science the human "soul" is only the atoms that make out our brain and the eletricity that runs trough that brain.
And the "soul" disappears after we die beacuse out atoms disperse and brake up...and no electricity is avting as motor oil in it.

So how can you religious people be religious??? There are no justice in the world...people die of war and famine everyday...is that the act of god??
Why does innocent people get killed??
In my opinion the only heaven there could be is the universe it self.
When it comes together in some billion years when we are all dead we might be united in some sort of heaven.
But hardly not as individuals...not even soulwise.
Now you might argue that I dont know/understand what a soul is.
Well lets put it this way: Mankind has evolved from apes which in their turn had gotten evolved from more primitive apes/rats/fish/bacterie/etc. exaclty in which of those stages did we get a soul then??
Did mankind just get a soul suddenly when we reached a certain level of intelligence?
Or does all life have a soul? even the lowest form of life?

Now you might have drawn the conclusion that I dont want to be convinced because I already have these arguments ready, that im just some ateist who wants to trash down on people that are "belivers".
That isn't right at all. I just want the replys to this thread to be on a certain level. I would like to hear your view on this.Hit me with your own philosophies and motivate them/explain them...just as long that "you behind the computer screen" has put some amount of thought into your reply.
I belive this topic has been going on forever in mankinds history but I think it's unstoppable

[Loki]

Flamebait ...

But:

When we're conceived our life starts and when we die, it ends. Just like that. Nothing before and nothing after that. Why should there be something?

It's a construct to keep people from being afraid of death - or in the catholic church - to make them afraid to burn in hell, so they donate money and try to be good christians ...

[Returner]

By the way my own philosophy is the same as Conan the barbarians
We are given life by some higher being/force/universe/coincidence and that thing doesn't interfere with our life, ever.
It just gave ous life nothing more or less.

[Coaster]

I'm sorry if I sound like a jerk, but my believe that when you die, your brain (being which contains your thoughts) decomposes.

[Returner]

Loki: mankind has always had thoughts about the afterlife, even before christianity. (but what you said is also right)
I for one don't feel comfortable with just the idea of "nothing" waiting for me and my close ones after I die. But as long as there isn't any real reason for me to belive in something after death why should I then construct something from a mall that the pope advertisers?? That is what many ateists thinks.
But I think it's perfeclty ok/normal to have have some philosophy as long as you have some motivation that doesn't quote the bible. Something grippable. If it makes you feel better.

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: Returner ]

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: Returner ]

[Steelwind]

Man as a rule is incapable of imagining his own destruction. So, afterlife. I mean, hell, after all I've been through in life I honestly can't conceive of not having some awareness. I bet you can't either.

And no good scientist will tell you that just because we don't remember anything before we were born there can't be anything after we die. Maybe something changes while we're alive that we can't fathom.

I'm not 'religious' in the traditional sense. But I do have my beliefs, and they do include after-death awareness.

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: Steelwind ]

[Awetopsy]

the terms "Christian" and "Catholic" define two very different things. Please choose your words carefully.

[V Shane]

Hmmmmm....well this can go in all kinds of directions. I think I'll pick the....We don't exhist in the first place,so there is no death, there is no life, there is no afterlife. We are but humble imaginings of the source of creation itself, kinda like a trial run before the actual creation itself. So basically creation hasn't even started yet.

[[Shizo]]

All knowledge and power defined by man, all stars and galaxies that fly in an endless loop, all volume, scale, and metrics, all of it was put down in one neat phrase by yours truly:

Nothing really matters

[mjmcchesney]

We find out when we die. Until then, don't worry about it.

[Loki]

Awetopsy: Catholics trying to be good christians - wtf is wrong with that wording??????????????
Nothing. Next.

Returner: I agree - believing there's something in the afterlife is a very comforting thought. But if your life just ends when you die - you won't really be there to worry about it or be afraid about it ... So - that by itself is a comforting thought by itself.
But I'm not a nihilist or something like that. Life itself is a miracle big enough to make me wonder what is behind it - where it came from - etc. ...

[Awetopsy]

Loki, I wasnt specifically reffering to your post. The term "christians" has been answered after your post about "Catholics". Im merely making a distinction. No crit to you.

[Icannon]

amen.

My thoughts dont go much past the point where this discussion is at now. They dont need to.

[Loki]

Awetopsy: sowwy! I got things confused as usual ... I'll be more careful next time
Thanks for staying calm ...

[mjmcchesney]

Mr. B: Just for saying that, You're going to Hell. =]

[Loki]

I knew Hell was going to feature Midi-Music ... I just knew it ...

[StrangeFate]

I'm with Loki on this.

Thinking that there's something makes it easier, like it does to think that someone listens to your prayers and actually helps you, it's all in your head. If you hear voices, go see a doctor.

Religion (as long as it isn't missused) is great to keep order, if people weren't afraid of anything we'd have anarchy.

[V Shane]

___________________________
it's all in your head
__________________________

Where else would it be?

[vigilo]

This is a TROLL. But in any case...

I believe soul/consciousness/spirit is a lot more than brains electrical patterns.

I think V Shane has something.
What I think is that God is simply Consciousness manifesting itself through the grand illusion we call Universe/World/Life, with single purpose of getting back to the absolute center where it is conscious of everything there is.

Returner,
Even though I am anti-religious in a sense that i believe people should think for themselves, i think you shouldn�t generalize �religious� people as though they all have Christian beliefs. But then again I think you posted this to get some attention and me saying this is pretty much useless.

[Awetopsy]

Loki: you bet.

[Tiger Eaten]

I suggest that anyone feeling doubtful about life/death rummage around and find themselves a picture that was taken one year before their birth, for example if you were born in 1976, then go and find a picture taken in 1975. Take a good hard look at a world that existed without you. You were nothing and guess what? It wasn't a big deal, no sweat, it didn't bother you a bit. Some day you will die and it won't bother you a bit either, except possibly the few moment before death itself.

Personally I believe that if we exist once then there is a good chance that we will become concious again at some point, possibly in a rerun of the life that you are currently living. The nice thing about not existing is that time has no meaning and even if it take a hundred billion years for you to get your shot a life again, for you it will pass in a heartbeat. There is a great deal of repeating pattern in our universe. I personally believe that the first thing you most likely experience after dying is your own birth. Perhaps in the future, perhaps in the past. Its a nice thought IMO.

P.S: Go out and have a couple of children at some point, just in case I'm wrong and live your life well in case you are doomed to repeat it for all eternity.

[zak]

someone clearly got too much time on their hands i mean, who would write shit like that??
shit 1
shit 2
shit 3
and who the hell wastes their time on stuff like that?

half the site aint even working.

people like that make me go CRAZY!!!! i feel like shoving a 6 ft up that idiots ass that wrote that page

[FSME]

Any of you been to the hospital for surgery or whatever? You get your anesthetics and you're gone within seconds. I mean, seriously, you don't even notice you're not there anymore. It's not like sleeping, it's just... not being. It's a really weird feeling to remember, but I guess that's what it must feel (i.e. not feel) like, being dead.

[Awetopsy]

Does the person who wrote that page deserve fredom of speech without ridicule? like everybody else?

why dont any of you ever talk like that about pages that are in Allahs name? or Buddha? or pick another god/goddess

(just for clarity sake, I think this guy at yourgoingtohell.com is going about his message all wrong. right from the name of the site onwards.)

why does everyone of these religious topics end up being a christian bash?

"Christianity" and "religion" are also two very seperate things, again, choose your words carefully.

[Basse_Ex]

I consider myself jolly fucking religious, although not very good at it. But an afterlife?

How should I know?

I've never died before, or at least I can't remember dying before.

I don't really understand why both atheists and religious folks always quarrel about and stress these issues. The Bible very clearly states that God moves in mysterious ways, and that only the Lord has the right to judge.

Part of being a good God-fearing person, is accepting that we will never comprehend the reasons, or the plan, of our world. We will never know what comes tomorrow, and we will always forget what happened yesterday. All we can do is try our best to do what is right(Whatever the fuck that is), and hope that we will someday get our reward in heaven, so to speak.

Those atheists that insists on bringing up these issues constantly, must have too much spare time. Get a life. You can never prove that God, souls, and afterlives don't exist, because their very nature defies proof in either direction. Some things we never know, until we find out for ourselves in the end. Or as Hank Williams Sr said:

No matter how I struggle and strive, I'll never get out of this world alive.

[wayfinder]

awetopsy, you're paranoid.

and the right of free speech -- without ridicule? where did THAT come from? i mean, it would be nice if people didnt ridicule as much, but you know, it's not a right anywhere to go unridiculed ...

in some places, not even free speech is a right. you might fight these places, or condemn them, but they do have their reasons. matter of perspective, again.

[balistic]

When I am, death is not. When death is, I am not.

[Returner]

Loki:
Yes for some peoples that view might make them able to cope with worries about the afterlife. But for me it doesn't really bring any comfort that a person I've known all my life doesn't have to fear/worrie about being dead, he is still gone.

Vigilo:
I just asumed that most people on this forum that are religious are christians of some sort. (sorry all non christians )

Tiger Eaten:
That's a very nice thought you have there, hehe. Reincarnation i mean. If the universe implodes and explodes in all eternity there should eventually come a time when all your brainatoms are the same as they are now. As you said, it doesn't matter if it takes some billion billion year until it happens cause you are going to stay dead until then anyway

Basse ex:
I just think that it's better to discuss these things with others and have an open mind. That just buying what the bible says right off and not think of it at all is making it to easy for yourself. But it's just my opinion.
Nice quote btw

[Awetopsy]

wayfinder: paranoid? no. Im merely drawing a conclusion that Christians are the most ridiculed of groups. Take this thread for example, were any other religious beliefs mentioned? Buddhism? Ba'hai? Pagan?
No. As soon as anything that even uses the term "religious" pops up, some "christian" website or "christian"-mocking website gets thrown forward and people automatically start trashing Christians. why is that?

Im just stating a observation and asking why. Harldy paranoia.

[ July 09, 2002: Message edited by: Awetopsy ]

[mjmcchesney]

Eh, I was just playing around with Loki. Didn't mean to start the whole Christian-bashing thing People can believe what they want, religion, if there's an afterlife, if a donkey gave birth to the universe, etc. I just thought it was sorta fitting in a joking manner. I guess I could have used a Buddhist site as well...just a random choice, really.

Oh, and I believe that when we die, we meet the Queen Spider and are enslaved in her nest of death.