[Naeem]

Hi guys,

I'm writing a paper for class on the ethics of using photos in digital painting in the entertainment design field. I know that it's a hot issue nowadays, and I have a few opinions on it. The way I see it- when n00bs use it like n00bs, then I'm against it because they haven't studied the foundation, etc. When pros use it for work- I'm not against it at all, since they've got tight deadlines and need to get a quick idea down.

The thing is- I do feel that if I paint today, with no regard to a deadline or professionalism and as a student, I shouldn't use a photo in a painting at all- that you're not cheating anyone but yourself. I understand that using photos is a technique as well- but I'm sure that when you have a high understanding of color, value, and form- it won't be hard to master that specific technique. It's best to do it all the real way first- when you're not a pro. This way, you can use the tricks and shortcuts later, knowingly, and the right way.
Do you guys agree? What do you all think?


By the way- I posted on here because I need to have quotes from people about the issue I'm writing about, and also to start the conversation. So, if you say anything- know that I might cite you for the paper to "persuade" the reader that I'm right. I'm not getting you guys to do my paper- It's already done . I just need quotes from 2 designers in the industry, hehe

[mull]

I dont personally find any problem in people using photographs within their artwork, whether its due to deadline, texture or in-experience. What irks a lot of artists is when the photograph is used with no painting whatsoever, full of filters and its trying to be passed off as 'hand painted'.

I think along the same lines as yourself, with a no-deadline, personal piece of work you can invest time in painting everything by hand which not only provides greater satisfaction but increases your skill/technque levels.

[Sampster]

I also agree people who are just learning should stick to foundational painting skills. I feel like it's fine to use photo's to create artwork after that but in the spirit of full honesty I think the artist needs to be very up front about about how the photo's were used.

I don't have a problem with using photo's for texture, especially when work needs to be done quickly�but I don't like it when photos are clearly just spliced into work, not faded out as texture but as an actual part of a "painting;" when amateurs do that I think it's often very obvious and ugly.

I also agree with mull... I've seen so many terrible "paintings" done in Painter X that are obviously just clone brushes used over a photograph, following a few contour lines. Makes me upset but in truth the "artists" who do that instead of learning about color and form are only cheating themselves.

annnd I just read the part about "designers in the industry." There are a few thousand of my shirts in print, but I'm not a professional. You could call me a student artist at most probably, though I didn't write in formal paper quality anyway. Hopefully the thoughts spark some discussion that you can actually use.

[Nag]

"The end justifies the means." Is a nice quote that might help.

And a good question to ask when it doubt is "Would Rembrant have done it if he had the tools?" .... I would say yes.

[Naeem]

well, my thing isn't whether using it is right or wrong. It is a tool of the digital medium, that if you fail to use- you're depriving yourself. However, my firm belief is that before you can use this tool, or even paint well in the digital medium, you must be somewhat fluid in traditional painting and drawing. Sure, you can spend years digi painting trying to improve- but speaking from personal experience where I started digi painting heavily for 2 years, until I realized I had to draw- I can definitely say that the improvement I had in those 2 years was remote- if any. However, the improvement I've had since trying to draw with on paper and painting with traditional media is noticably higher.

So, my take on this whole thing is aimed towards those quick "quick fix" tutorial websites on photoshop everywhere- showing you how you can "paint cities like a pro" after reading the tutorial. I'm personally offended by things like that- because most of the time, the author of the tutorial barely knows anything himself/herself and it shows alot in their painting. On top of it all- they make it seem like digital painting is a breeze- where you slap on a photo that you steal from the internet and then blend it with the dodge/burn tool and so on, and cal it yours.

As for quotes- hehe, I wasn't asking you guys for quotes. I was just telling you that the discussion we have here- I may take it in context and use something you say for one of my quotes.

[Jabo]

If Rembrandt had had photography, he'd be a photographer.
_________________
CA SB|Flickr

[Nag]

Hehe.. that would have been a shame though Jabo =). That Rembrandt thing came to mind cause my art director once asked me if I thought if Mr R would have used the levels in ps had he had the option for it.

I know what you meant Annis and I did�nt really mean the quote in that way. For me it�s a bit of a philosophy, use the tools that are given to you. I�ve had the same experience as you with the drawing and I completely agree with you that you have to learn the foundation first and you can almost always see it right away if someone does�nt have it. I sometimes use photos but mostly for textures and color picking. It�s also sometimes handy for things like vegetation and lights (the halo), but that kinda is texture aswell. It�s sometimes fun also to have an image you�ve been working on but there�s something missing, and throw a photo in there (a texture or whatnot (or just a small single building in the backround)) and the painting goes "pop" cause suddenly you have something in it that the eye recognizes as a "real" thing. The eye fills in the rest and brings the whole image up to that level.

Anyways.. bla bla

[Affected]

If it looks good, who cares how you did it? Illustrations are made to visualize ideas. As for developing skills, how you do that is something everyone has to figure out for themselves.

Of course, a lot of the time paintings will look better since finding photos with exactly the right light etc. can be impossible. It's far too often easy to spot a photo that's been contorted too far to "fit" into an image.

[notic]

to quote craig: "professional is what get's the job done"

[Ben Mauro]

when doing work work.....do whatever it takes to get the job done. I don't think
there should be any guilt in using photos or looking at reference, if you have
never seen a car before how will you be able to draw one accurately?

If you want to grow as a designer and illustrator i would only use it when it is
necessary, if it is helping to illustrate and visualize your idea more quickly then
go for it. As with anything it is all relative. If you want to be a professional
matte painter, thats a large part of your job, coming up with your
shot/background/whatever and collaging photo's together to get a photo real finish.

But in the end, if you don't have any drawing and design foundation, no
amount of photo collaging and filters will get you anywhere.

see you in class dood.

[Ranath]

[notic]

spot on there ranath..

i think the biggest concern is that it's easy to forget/ignore about the actual 3d form that is so crucial, and simply end up copying 2d shapes.

[Ranath]

[Synnical]

Photoshop is a powerful tool, and sorry to quote Spidey's grandma, with great power comes great responsibility, and that responsibility of doing good art has to be learned through studying the fundamentals. If you abuse the tool without knowing the basics, you are ignoring that responsibility and cheating yourself out of actual improvement.

I personally learned how to paint digitally, but I did my fair share of drawings the traditional way. Digital for me is a great tool for understanding how colours work; and I believe if you start out by treating Photoshop strictly as a painting tool (no heavy filters/photos/layers involved), you can actually learn and find your own style faster than you would traditionally. Like Ranath said, you don't want to limit yourself, you just have to be smart and responsible in the ways you learn.

[Mikko K]

[Ranath]

[Hideyoshi]

I think everyone knows when he/she is ready to use photos in digital artworks and get away with making it look skillful and not amateurish. It's pretty evident if you lack the basic skills and simply use cheating tactics to get fancy results.
I believe photos should always take on an aiding role in achieving your visions and not be used as something you built your artwork around with filters etc. Because then it becomes manipulating rather than creating.
Personally, I'd always keep the use to a minimum just for the sake of learning...
I have recently played around with paitning over heavily blurred photos just to get your imagination started. I think using photos as a means of inspiration is a great thing and I am pretty sure I read that Mullins used this technique occassionally...
Also, I personally think that custom brushes can be an equal curse if you start to rely too much on them. It's tempting, but not as rewarding as painting your stuff by hand

[notic]

mikko, it wasn't really a complaint though, more of a concern towards beginning artists who gets easily deceived by "shortcuts" instead of thinking while painting.

i always encourage experimentation in art though, it's fun and much can be learnt from it. but i also think it's important to do longer studies not having to think about which brush get's the coolest effect.

i'm not claiming to be an expert though(just look at my paintings ), everyone can do as they want, and shouldn't feel obliged by following "rules".

[Mikko K]

I totally agree with you guys. I was just trying to point out the somewhat ridiculous concerns everyone (myself included) always seem to have about "kids using shortcuts and learning bad habits".

It's not like anyone has ever gotten *really* good results from just brainless photo/texture/brush play.

I usually go through the speedy thread so quickly these days, and it takes something special to catch my attention. So the gimmicky stuff really isn't doing it for me anymore.

[notic]

hehe yeah.. i suppose we're getting old!

[seth1]

Synnical, that was his grandpa.

[Synnical]

o right, my bad

[Duracel]

[sweetums]

[Duracel]

[Kamal]

As long as the artist is the exclusive copyright owner of the photograph it's fine regardless of the circumstance. What really bothers me is when artist pull stuff off the web and think that if they change it enough, it's their own work. Eek!! So sad to see even professionals doing this

[Ranath]

roaylty free stock photos, man..

besides, the way good artists use photos is such that you'd never recognize any specific photos there.

[Kamal]

I love using royalty free photos in my design work, but you can't paint over royalty free images or make a painting of a royalty free photo and call it your own. That's a derivative copy and therefore you can't sell exclusive rights to it to anyone (which is usually what clients want). That's the down side of using "roaylty-free".

[Max]

I really have to agree with you Duracel. Wise words. Maybe I understand them different than you mean it. I dunno. Doesn't really matter anyway. It seems you really know what it is about, and in the recent months I expirienced a similar change of things in my art or my approach to art. My motives seem to change,...I questioned myself, why I draw and paint. I am still not really sure. I just know I became stuck at one point.

Using photographs is okay if you are honest and feel good about using them. If there is anything that bothers you, don't use them. If you want to sharpen your skills, try to avoid it. At the moment I have to use photographs a lot in my work at Crytek because we simply don't have enough time and people want to see highly detailed stuff, furthermore we have to deal with very complex structures. Working with photos is very technical, not very artistic (at least the way I feel about it). However it still is very hard to implement them in your work. Most of the time you won't suceed with photos. it will look fake, because of fake lighting, fake values, etc. You have to be very good to use photos the right way. Which brings me back to the point that basics are essential for that kind of work.

Cheers!