[Vesuvius]

the prez is saying that the palestinians have to have democratic elections, but they can't elect arafat, and if they elect arafat no palestinians will receive any US foreign aid. http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/27/international/middleeast/27PREX.html
what fucking gall, to FORCE democracy, to threaten them if they don't choose who you want, and to say nothing about the other side.
I don't think the Palestinians are all innocent, and I think the suicide bombers are horrible. but the Israeli military admitted to pretty inhuman practices themselves, including human shields, shooting every window in case of snipers (regardless of innocents), cutting off food and water while holding 24 hour curfews, shelling (from a tank) people who were at the market after curfew, repeatedly assassinating via helicopter and in the process harming innocents nearby (as they did in April and did again to two taxis recently), arresting thousands of innocents to get at the guilty and making all the arrested handcuffed blindfolded stripped and held outdoors, etc etc.

both sides are wrong but Bush only blames one while hailing the other, that is currently erecting a berlin wall of sorts, as a society lead by a man of peace. such fucking bullocks.

granted he's done plenty bad to America as well, but this really takes the cake for hypocracy in my eyes.

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Vesuvius ]

[Loki]

hey - only 2.5 more years ... we'll all have to hang in there ...

[Impaler]

America is one big piece of Imperialism pie, my good man.

[klaivu]

Lebensraum.

[xXxPZxXx]

not that I don't agree with you, there are a number of cases where we (the u.s.) has gone in and been even bigger dicks. Reforming whole governments and countries, rigging elections etc.

But one thing I heard last night on P.I. with Bill Maher (My favorite show too bad it got canned because he talked bad about america) is that it is known that Israel has nuclear power and palestine doesn't. Do you think that Palestine would hold back on using them like Israel has if they did have them?

Who knows maybe they would, maybe they aren't so bad but we only hear the "spin" our media puts on them. But I would have to think that there is a good chance they would.

who knows...

-PZ-

[edraket]

Err... Nuclear warfare is not a very good idea when you want to conquer land. Especially if your own land is right next to that land.
I think even the palestinians would realise that.

[Svanur]

quote:

---

Originally posted by klaivu:
Lebensraum.

---

You said it.

[[666]Flat]

So you guys are familiar with the meaning of the german word "Lebensraum", oh well. Let's face it, Israels way of acting is extremely questionable. Intimidation is one of their main goals, altogether with suppressing the, in their eyes, rebellious palestinians who are blind with hatred and have to be "brought under control". In fact, the Israelis are acting like they had a god given occupying power and civil losses among the palestinians were tolerable at the sight of the great cause, whatever that might be. No matter if all their military actions have been completely useless and produced nothing but collateral damage. The only way to reach a state of peace again would be to have the palestinians found their own state and to accept, tolerate and support their independency. Doesn't look like that's gonna happen, though. We've seen in the past Ariel Scharon understands the whole Isreal conflict as some kind of personal crusade against "the evil" as a whole and especially against Arafat, who may still be the official head of the palestians but doesn't has disposal of them. Nobody seems to work on a real solution in Isreal and as a result of this lapse innocent Isrealis and Palestinians have to die day after day, supporting the way Scharon is handling the situation will help to find a way out of the vicious circle of destruction and pain just as much as helping a fanatic running amok to find the next big crowd to fulfill his mission. There were a lot of discussions going on here in Germany for a while 'cos a german politican dared to criticize the actions against the civilian palestinians taken by Israel as response to the bomb attacks. Due to that critique, the president of the the jewish supervisory board in Germany put that politican in charge of being a right-wing extremist and demanded his immediate withdrawal... What the fuck? "Evil Nazi bastard, die die die!", is that their idea of taking care of a problem? Acting like they're "evil nazi bastards" themselves? Gosh.

[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: [666]Flat ]

[elam]

It's American money. Denying access to said money because your leader is a terrorist isn't a threat. It's common sense.

Now if G-dub was consistent just about no one would get foreign aid. But hey, welcome to the world, Vesuvius.

And, remember this, 60%-80% of Palestinians support suicide bombings. Live by the sword, die by it.

I have a suspicion you have no idea of the history of that region,only what you've been reading in the last year or so.

Weren't you the whining bitch who was complaining about The Army's new video game?

quote

Quote:

Lebensraum

Syria, Jordan, and Egypt all occupy Palestinian land, not just Israel.

[edraket]

I can't really have an opinion on this. Ethically speaking I think the palestinians should have the leader they want to choose.
But from a practical viewpoint it is pretty clear that palestina needs to reform to have some chance on fixing the whole situation.
Judging from Bush's previous actions ethics are not something he bothers himself with. So..practical it is.
Can't say that I agree. But it's definatly not the worst he's done.

People were flying palestinian flags over here to show their solidarity. They got sued for anti-semitism.

Flat..whats wrong with you man?? I am considering starting a "worried about Flat" thread. You've been writing in normal language. And just now you actually wrote something constructive!!!

[cheney]

I believe this hypocritical. Israeli military practices are barbaric. Perhaps more barbaric then the futile Palestinian suicide bombings.

The only way this could be made fair is if we promised the same thing in Israel, because Arial Sharon is a great evil.

I have no pain in saying that Sharon is a weaker parallel to the practices of Hitler.

[Vesuvius]

Flat- I may have to stop hating you, you showed a brain and a conscience.

elam- you're just as petty and biased as you were in the other thread. first you get ready to dismiss what I say because you didn't like something else, second you ignore the aspect which causes the hypocracy: FORCING democracy while not even letting it be democracy, thirdly I have yet to see anything conclusive that arafat is a terrorist- he's supported some shady groups yes - but so has Bush while we're at it (he supported the taliban with over a million the spring prior to sept 11, he supported gen. Dostum in Afghanistan who has been found to have mass murdered the unarmed who surrendered). I think that Arafat does need to stop supporting those groups, but also the Israelis have tried to kill him with military force on at least 2 occassions in the past year so I can understand some desperation. Also- G Dub as you call him does not have the last say on all American money, but he's acting like he does. I do know about the history of the region, from WWII on, but you like to spit out belittlement without thought. also- 90% of Israelis currently like Sharon's action, should they all be prepared to die (justly in your mind) too? and where is your figure for the 80% from?
weren't you the idiot from the america's army thread who kept on resorting to insulting me to avoid the issues?

PS- if they have to remove arafat under these circumstances, he'll just become a martyr. And just WHO do you think will be chosen to replace Arafat, who will bring a better chance for peace- what major Palestinian figure is more willing to deal with the West and Israel to negotiate peace?

[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: Vesuvius ]

[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: Vesuvius ]

[vigilo]

I heard about some German politician on the radio who was saying some pretty harsh (truthful?) things about Jews in general. I was extremely surprised that someone had enough nerve to say what he said.

Of course it didn't take Jews long to accuse him of anti-Semitism and do their usual image staining routine.

Btw, anyone seen that next best candidate for the Palestinian leadership on TV. The guy is an Arab version of Sharon. He said he promotes war against Israel and will not rest until all land is liberated, could be the elections gimmick but who knows?

elam: Funny how we don't hear about Syria, Jordan, and Egypt sending their tanks to run down Palestinian villages?

[jr]

did it sound something like this?
"oh i f-ing hate jews! i mean they come into a land that doesn't belong to them, (all over the world), and settle in like it's theirs! and then they work hard and move up in society! making more money than the rest of us! how dare they work hard!"

[vigilo]

No not at all. It was in lines of "There could be a reason why Jews are disliked all over the world, and that reason is is mirroring itself in their behaviour in Palistine."

No-one questions that they are hardworking people with iq above average. Its their racial favoritism and attitude toward others...

[Vesuvius]

well, given that Sharon has accused Kofi Annan of being an anti-semite when he chose to ask questions about both sides rather than blindly follow Israel, I'd say that what you said comes as no surprise

[[666]Flat]

quote:

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Originally posted by vigilo:
I heard about some German politician on the radio who was saying some pretty harsh (truthful?) things about Jews in general.

---

The guy I'm talking about is Moellemann and he was talking about the political leadership of Israel, in other words, Ariel Scharon, and not about the "Jews in general". That's a big difference.

[[666]Flat]

You could be talking 'bout Dr.Jamal Karsli, though. He immigrated to Germany from Iran, at least to my knowledge, became a politician and took his chance to do anti-semitic "public announcements" (if you want to call his interviews to the press like that)... He was dismissed of his post and his party emphasized they're not sharing his views and opinions - of course the reputation of that party suffered none the less. Yes, Jamal Karsli is indeed an anti-semetic, but that doesn't has anything to do with the critique of that guy I mentioned before. I guess incidents like that happen in every democracy, of course it's especially embarrassing if it happens in Germany.

[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: [666]Flat ]

[vigilo]

I don't know the name of the guy. I just remmember that quote vaguely on the radio, and that he was some politician and was later made appologize for what he said... i doubt we are talking about the same person. You would know better though...

[elam]

A poll released last week by a Palestinian think tank showed support
for suicide bombings dropped from 74 percent in December to 68 percent
recently. The survey, which had a margin of error of 3 percentage
points, was roughly in line with other polls.

There's nothing undemocratic about not dealing with an elected leader. I don't want my tax dollars going to Arafat. The Palestinians can turn around and say "Fuck you!" and elect him. Democracy in action.
As long as they know the consequences. There might be something non-sensible about it, though.

The funding that is in jeopardy is for rebuilding aid, not the $100 million in humanitarian aid we give to the Palestinians each year.

quote

Quote:

PS- if they have to remove arafat under these circumstances, he'll just become a martyr. And just WHO do you think will be chosen to replace Arafat, who will bring a better chance for peace- what major Palestinian figure is more willing to deal with the West and Israel to negotiate peace?

You only become a martyr if you die. If Israel wanted him dead, they would have killed him by now.
There are a number of moderate, sensible Palestinians who could replace him, most notably Anan Hashwari, a female cabinet minister.

quote

Quote:

Funny how we don't hear about Syria, Jordan, and Egypt sending their tanks to run down Palestinian villages?

The issue for the Palestinians primarily is occupation of "Historical Palestine", which the three mentioned countries also occupy.

[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: elam ]

[cheney]

I watched Anan Hashwari speak on C-Span a few weeks ago. She is a brilliant speaker. If I were a Palestinian I would vote for her.

[vigilo]

quote

Quote:

The issue for the Palestinians primarily is occupation of "Historical Palestine", which the three mentioned countries also occupy.

What are you trying to say? That Palestinians just choose to ignore Jordanian tanks running over their homes and decide to strap themselves with bombs when a Israeli tank does the same?

[elam]

quote

Quote:

What are you trying to say? That Palestinians just choose to ignore Jordanian tanks running over their homes and decide to strap themselves with bombs when a Israeli tank does the same?

No, I was simply responding to the Lebensraum ("living space") remark.

[Vesuvius]

elam- you raise a few good points and a few I have issues with. I disagree with your democracy remark in that I feel we've made no efforts to work with the existing government through diplomatic means over the last year- during which we place increasing demands on Arafat which we expect him to effectivley stop all groups (even those he has no direct control over) while we allow him to be confined to 3 rooms. I feel that saying you want democracy but you condemn electing who the people want IS hypocracy, and that while removing certain funding from corrupt governments is okay, removing all aid, including humanitarian, is heartless blackmail.

I think you have a good point about a proper successor, but that you can't force anyone on a people without them wanting the change.

I think that you don't understand what I mean by martyr, yes people achieve martyrdom when they die for a cause, but they also do by suffering for a cause- it's part of the traditional definition. (the second definition in merriam-websters dictionary is "a person who sacrifices something of great value and especially life itself for the sake of principle" which could indeed be a way of construing him being taken from power to insure his people have aid.

and regarding your poll- although I don't know how reliable a source Salon.com is to begin with- supporting an action is not enough reason to punish someone as though they committed it. Live by the sword, die by it is not justification of anything. Americans support US military action, that doesn't justify having them killed. believing in an act- even an atrocious one - is something you have no right to punish someone for, so long as they don't commit the atrocity themself. And given their position, while personally I feel killing the innocent is unjustifiable under any circumstance, I can understand them feeling that way (the Israelis feel the same, that their actions- regardless of death toll - are justified by their suffering)

and PS- about 1300 Palestinians were killed by Israelis since the year 2000 whereas only about 300 Israelis by Palestinians.

[elam]

Well, we worked with Arafat under Clinton for 8 years and it got us what we have today.
Arafat isn't interested in Peace anymore than Sharon is. They both need to go.

I don't care if the %80 of Palestinians who support bombings don't go out and do it themselves. They support these measure in large part because there is a governmental and cultural support for it, and a large part of that is due to Arafat.

Arafat is the one who urged the current intifada, and now he and his people pay the price.

If the Palestinians adopted a movement similar to Civil Rights movements of the 60's, which emphasized non-violence and civil disobediance as a means of resistance, which many have urged, I think sympathy for their cause would surge dramatically.
It certainly would for me.

[edible snowman]

that move seems pretty unneccessary. they want the palestinians to make their own decisions, but then at the same time turn around and say they can't be trusted to do so. do you think the u.s. and the rest of the world will finally take an equal stance on israel when we start to lose are dependency on oil? or is there more to it than that? i dont really follow this too closely.

[DrunkenMoNk]

First I would have to agree, to simply try to force a country to have a democracy (which is undemocratic to start with isn't it?) and then to tell them who they can and cannot elect is hypocritical.

Second how about a simple solution, apparently both sides are guilty to a certain extent so why doesn't America just stop giving money to either side until they figure out a way to settle things?

That's right, stop paying for oil in countries they believe harbor terrorism and stop giving money to the Israeli's... I'm sure that after a nice and long embargo either both sides will fess up and decide that making money is a good thing... or they'll do something stupid like attack us and then we'll just wipe em off the face of the Earth .

My views maybe simplistic but you know that a sacrifice by America (increased gasoline costs and ignoring big oil) rather than us imposing our will may be the easiest way out.

[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: DrunkenMoNk ]

[James Bradford]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/020627/170/1re1l.html

[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: JamesBradford ]

[lalPOOO]

I don't know why we even bother with these shithead countries and their constant bullshit. It'd make things a hole lot eaiser if we just said, screw you, we'll put our money back into the education system and maybe build a couple monuments, instead of wasting time with ungrateful shits. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be stuck up, I feel sorry for the innocent people caught up in this, but I guess it just sucks to be them. They'd probably think the same way were we in opposite postions.

[Beowulfthefallen]

Our nation has some sort of preoccupation with being nosy bastards who decide that everything is our business. We could never, of course, blame the Jews for doing any harm. The Jews have endured enough suffering ! Yet they get to occupy Palestinian land while the US supports them and denounces the Palestinian cause. What a bunch of bullshit. I'd be blowing myself to pieces and smacking planes into buildings too, if someone was screwing my country.