[udal]

@drunken monkey
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,2059528,00.html
i found this pretty relevant considering what you said about gun laws

[Drunken Monkey]

udal, i love arguments that are based solely on linking articles, they require minimal thought and effort, here is my reply:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=21902
_________________
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" - Sigmund Freud

[udal]

...yeah. sorry for linking but i have to watch my blood pressure.

[Misc]

hmm... flying of topic here

"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."

ok... another good way would be to convice people that they are free by having them believing that a text like this would make any difference whatsoever. If the government would like to enslave you in 2007 chances are that they would NOT try to conquer you with firearms...

I can honestly say that I have never understood this obsession with freedom and pride and so on. I simply do not get this. I have for the past two years gotten more involved with business people in different ways and I have met a few people that are quite good at it. What is obvious is that these people are not particularly smarter or in any way superior to anyone, they are just regular guys with a big interest in something that has to do with business, like making a shitload of money, realizing their dreams, interest in economics, a passion for making deals, leadership, bossing people around, the freedom of not having standard work times etc. For the same reasons we gather on forums like this, they gather together in whatever ways they find beneficial. Since politics and business always go hand in hand, it's easy to realize that these groups are pretty tightly tied together, the same way an artist and a web designer can have a mutually beneficial relationship.

This is of course something people are saying all the time, but I doubt that it is something people in general actually UNDERSTAND. Why do I believe this? Well because people in general, when this subject comes up, are upset or negative about this relationship. They are not UNDERSTANDING about this. It is a phenomenon that is just as natural as Sijun or whatever commmunity where people with similar interest meet and benefit from each other. These are just ordinary guys with specific interests. ORDINARY GUYS! This is why I'm having a hard time understanding patriotism, being loyal to your country etc... what is there to be loyal about??? It's just a bunch of guys like you and me, but with other interests! Lets say you like governing people and enjoy making people do what you like, and lets say that you notice that people put great pride in defending their country and being patriotic. Would you not then encourage people even more in this direction if it would make you develop and get better at something that you are interested in? There are a thousand ways of making people do what you want them to do, and there's alot of people that are passionate about this, the same way we are passionate about art. It's nothing special at all, we just have different interests. So, why should I feel any need to be patriotic? There's nothing to be patriotic about, just a bunch of people that have noticed that this is a good way to get other people to do or think what they please. And it has definitely nothing to do with freedom. it has everything to do with control. Notice that this also has nothing to do with conspiracy. They are just passionate and interested in what they do the same way we are. It's just another way of living.

also

quote
"How many would that psychotic prick in Virginia have killed if half the students and faculty were armed? I'll tell you - he wouldn't even try. "

He wouldn't even try??? You just said that he's a psychotic prick! He also killed himself, right? Sounds like he wasn't too terrified about losing his life...

to tie this to the topic; most americans I have met or worked with have been really nice, open and warm people. My guess is that we are similar enough so that we start taking each other for granted, but have a few hard-to-point-out but maybe fundamental differences that we do not accept when in taking-for-granted-mode... just my opinion though.

[Drunken Monkey]

misc,

<heavy sarcasm>

Yeah its totally ok to intermix business and politics. After all, having sweatshops that work people 18 hours a day under a whip is so much more profitable than having workers that are only willing to put in measily 8 hours... and demand all that silly health insurance and those damn paychecks. I mean we are here for profit, we are just regular guys looking out for our interest to make deals and boss people around and not work at all ourselves, but to force someone else to work for us through bribery and exploitation of corrupt politicians.

What is this pride and patriotism thing? That liberty and bill of rights nonsense! Thats just bad for business. All that silly stuff just protects these sheeple that are so easily exploited to buy our houses on private islands.

</heavy sarcasm>

Misc, do you know what they call perfect merger of politics and business? They call it FASCISM and we all know how well that works. But hey history doesn't repeat itself right?

p.s.

Wether he would try or not - he would not have nailed 30 people before getting riddled into swiss cheese himself by either security, armed faculty or other students properly trained and licensed to carry firearms.
_________________
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" - Sigmund Freud

[Misc]

I'm not saying that it's morally correct in any way, just that it's my subjective view of reality. Fighting this would be about as easy as trying to stop any group of people with similar interests from finding each other.

Regarding the bill of rights; I was only commenting on your quote. And I'm also saying that if I would want to control people, I would love to have statements like that to play with. I'm sure that quote was valid when it was written, but now government/companies do not need guns to properly fuck you.

In Sweden I have maybe seen handguns 3 times in real life (not including police, military). As far as I know, to get one you would either have to be affiliated with a criminal gang, join a sport shooting club (these are not common) or illegaly import one. You can simply not just buy one. It's not a common element in our culture, it's more like a dolphin or something; you see them on tv an occationally in real life... This, I believe, is very important when it comes to school shootings and such. These kids seem to be heavily delusional or otherwise fucked up, and if you have large cultural and physical barriers to even aquire a gun, the probability that they would get their hands on one should decrease.

It gets even more funny when people try to blame this on video games and stuff... Talk about starting at the wrong end! I would rather be much more suspicious about a kid that is NOT playing video games today

[Gort]

[[Shizo]]

"A rifle shoots by itself once a year." - Russian proverb.

In China there are no guns. It's very safe.
If police finds you with a gun - they shoot you in the head.

[Max]

[Drunken Monkey]

[[Shizo]]

Hahah DM, you're very angry! It's like you're ying and Max Kulich is yang. Nighty night!

[Tomasis]

lol shizo haha

I think that not having any weapons is anyway better because some mad/weak persons could not outburst easily with such simple guns. a monkey can even shoot with a gun nowadays :D

[Ainmosni]

As much as I disagree that firearms are necessary to protect us from the zombie horde (shovels and axes are safer and easier to maintain), I think that Intoxicated Simian does make some important points.

Pretty much like what happens if the proverbial shit hits the proverbial ecologic-economic-political fan and it is chaos in the streets? As our population grows there is going to be more and more pressure on every facet of our society...look at all the past build-up to war and genocide throughout history. All the potential is there sitting just under the surface.

I'm not crying apocalypse, but from what we know of our past, I wouldn't get too comfortable. We do have it pretty good as it stands, but a way of life is only as strong as the chain of systems that support it. In the event you aren't completely self-sufficient and living out in Siberia or Northern Canada, I would be at least a little uneasy considering how things are going in the world today.

[Capt. Fred]

[Affected]

Doesn't seem to me that there's any strong correlation between gun ownership and murder rates. On one hand, you have places like the US, with high gun ownership and, reputedly anyway, high murder rates, and then you have places like Switzerland, population a bit under 7.5 million, estimated number of privately held assault rifles over 400,000, estimates of total number of firearms ranging between 1.2 to 3 million, and they do not have exceptionally high gun crime rates. Then you have places like Finland, where gun ownership is low, and gun crime is low, but homicide rates are relatively high anyway.

The point is, gun ownership doesn't really affect murder rates, for better or for worse. Maybe some part of the issue is the reason people get guns. In an area where people buy guns because they feel the need to defend themselves it is not surprising to have higher gun crime, either because the area is genuinely dangerous, or because you have armed people walking the streets ready to "defend themselves" at the slightest hint of trouble. In the end though, weapons are just inanimate objects. They will not save a society, and they won't destroy it either. People can do both.

[[Shizo]]

It's still super safe in China. Nyah nyah nyah!!!

[allpetter]

[Tomasis]

[Max]

Drunken Monkey: First off, let me tell you, that I respect your opinion. And from your point of view SOME of your arguments might be rational. I try to think in a global way tho. Looking at the whole world, at every country, not just at several states in the US and their statistics which don't prove anything and you should know that. Don't trust statistics without REALLY knowing what they mean. Otherwise it's just a cheap way to make an argument which makes an declaration of something which is a global issue.

[Drunken Monkey]

Max do you have other statistics? Post them.

[Drunken Monkey]

capt. fred, you have a healthy concern, but thats where the proper training part comes in. If you are properly trained you are not a danger due to lack of training.

And i don't think anyone should be able to get any firearm without proper checks into mental and criminal history. The Virginia Tech shooter was in a mental hospital labeled as - danger to himself. Why was he sold a gun to begin with?

Here in California you can't do that. They wont sell you any gun if you are nuts or a con.

[Drunken Monkey]

and here are a few more quotes for you guys, i just personally love them:

this one is for you Shizo:

�All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns, that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party� - Mao Tse Tung

�The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government� - Thomas Jefferson

Regulations Against Jews� Possession of Weapons
11-Nov-38
�Those now possessing weapons and ammunition are at once to turn them over to the local police authority. Firearms and ammunition found in a Jew�s possession will be forfeited to the government without compensation Whoever willfully or negligently violates the provisions will be punished with imprisonment and a fine�
_________________
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" - Sigmund Freud

[Gort]

Guns can be a defensive measure. You just don't hear about it as often.

I wonder where Venus Ramsey would be if she hadn't had a gun to defend herself or property? Found gagged and beaten to death? Another statistic?

There are many accounts where guns have countered criminal activity and for better.
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- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[Sumaleth]

The Venus Ramsey one is interesting because it's a clear example of why there are opposing views on the issue.

It's an example of a short term gain for long term loss. Ramsey won this one because she had a gun and the intruders didn't. So next time they'll bring a gun, and they won't give her a chance to bring hers into play.

So yes, you can say that by having a gun that situation worked out well. But you could also argue that the same result would have been achieved by using the police. And in the long term, that might have been better for the community as a whole.
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Art Links Archive -- Artists and Tutorials

[Drunken Monkey]

Suma, assuming police can be summoned as fast as a handgun.
_________________
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" - Sigmund Freud

[Gort]

Indeed

I can see your point, Sumaleth, but in cases where guns have been successfully used to deter crime, I am not sure there have been any cases of predators coming back when a gun has been defensively used; successful defense puts predators either 6 feet under or locked away. If a law abiding citizen owns a gun and is faced with a life or death situation, there's an advantage to having a gun; ownership is meant for defense and is therefore put to such use - the odds are evened or swayed to the victim when the need arises.

This is such a charged issue and one that has been wrangled with for so long here in America. Round and round . . .
_________________
- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[[Shizo]]

[Max]

I can't add much to what I have said already. I see your point. I disagree. However I try to understand you, I really do. Again. We will see what's the better way in the long run. Just don't be to extreme in your believe. You could be wrong! - as long as you are aware of that, believe what you want to believe, but never, on no account, stop questioning these articles, quotes, statistics, and at the end your own believe, otherwise you are already lost in a diffuse world, no matter if what you believe in is true, false or neighter of both.

Have a nice day

[Drunken Monkey]

[Sumaleth]

Maybe I didn't explain clearly enough.

It's a classic arms race situation.

Everyone having a gun doesn't deter criminal activity, it just means that the criminals will have to use guns too. And it means that the criminals behavior will be based around the assumption that they're up against someone with a concealed gun, which means they'll work in a way that negates the benefit of you having a gun.

If you don't have a gun, criminals are more likely to be sneaky in their endeavors rather than violent. This is safer for everyone, and makes it easier for the police to be effective.

In Ramsey's case, the police didn't need to get there as fast as a bullet. If she'd given the police a description of the vehicle and the number plate they could have been picked up in the possession of stolen goods, and gone to jail instead of being charged with misdemeanor trespass.

Of course there will always be situations where having a gun just happens to save your life. And that's why this is a no-win argument. It's the "every man for himself" conservative instinct against the "every man for society's good" liberal instinct.
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