[Joie]

hOZIT everyone!

It has been a long time now since I have been thinking of joining this digital art movement. Digital art just seems to be so much more practical, no more dirty brushes, no more dirty fingernails and no more expensive oils! why should I get stuck in the past?

the thing is, I am not sure which program would be ideal for what i have in mind. The other day I just randomly downloaded the free MAYA software. I am also thinking of the 3d STUDIO MAX setup. Would this combo be ideal for computer art, or should I maybe focus on something totally different?

All I really want, is to create some kind of surrealistic/ fantasy art, by focusing on the illusion of depth and space.

Would the knowledge of computer animation improve a persons capabillites to become a better digital artist? Is animation a crucial part of creating space in a work of art?

Help would really be appreciated.
thank you

[Sumaleth]

There are many different types of digital art. It might be useful to find some artists whose work interests you and then find out what techniques they use.

If it's 3D that interests you, then Maya and 3D Studio are certainly the two most-used 3D programs, plus ZBrush has a following at the cheaper end. If it's "painted" 2D you like, then Photoshop and Painter are the main two (or GIMP for a low-cost alternative), or Illustrator for "design" 2D.

So find the software you like, then start doing tutorials, and copying paintings you like, and participating in communities like this one. It won't take too long to get the hang of it if you have a background in art.
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Art Links Archive -- Artists and Tutorials

[Joie]

Man, this is probably going to be one of the most embarrassing thing a person can say on this forum...

this morning, I realised, that Tablet PCs do in fact exist!
What a revelation!
Over the moon, i am telling you, I am a f@#king idiot!
This is going to change my life, for sure. Can't wait to get my greedy little hands on it. Who cares about texture, this is it, this is the ultimate tool, this is the future.

Just two questions, which tablet pcs are the ones with the good reputations?
I read this morning that nowadays you have the option of actually using you finger, jeewizz...
and do they come with DVD players?

appreciate your response

[Sumaleth]

Fingers? I don't know that that technology is available for the home computer just yet.

For a PC that is also a tablet -- where you draw directly on the screen -- there's really only one: the Cintiq

Not cheap though.

If you just mean a drawing tablet that you plug into a PC then the wacom brands are leaders there too. You've got the Graphire tablets at the lower end of the range and the Intuos range at the higher end. There are other cheaper brands too, but make sure you read lots of reviews before laying down the green.
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Art Links Archive -- Artists and Tutorials

[Joie]

Wow, that Cintiq model looks amazing, definitely an option, $2500 is just a bit steep... Today I have also done some research on LENOVA's ThinkPad models, and I have to say, quite impressed ($1800).

This is a quote from wikipedia which falls under:(Hybrid digitizers)

"More recently, tablet PCs have been equipped with hybrid digitizers that respond to both active pen and passive touch input. This allows the user to utilize simple finger based navigation, as well as the precision of pen input. An example of a tablet PC equipped with a hybrid digitizer is the Lenovo X60 Tablet with MultiTouch."

I really don't know what to think of it.. I just wonder whether the " finger based navigation" would be of any significant use to the artist?[/b]

[Ranath]

I read about a laptop computer that had a monitor that worked as a tablet. You could flip the monitor around and use it kind of a sketch pad. Manufactured by Acer I think. An example right here http://www.highend3d.com/articles/reviews/21-1.html

Not too expensive considering that you get both Cintiq style tablet AND a decent laptop..

[Sampster]

I have (non-art) a teacher that has a tablet PC.

The thing is I'm pretty sure it doesn't have pressure sensitivity or tilt functionality.

That might not sound like a big deal, but pressure sensitivity especially, is very useful.

[Ranath]

It does have pressure sensitivity, though only 256 levels (compared to cintiq that has 1024)

[Joie]

thanks for the help you guys, I can't wait to see what the future holds in store for the art community. Just imagine, a Cintiq tablet the size of a door...costing about the same as a pair of shoes..

What I really love about computer art, is that, unlike physical art, it is shared, not purchased to be exclusively enjoyed by the few.

[Brake Check]

This is a fingerpainting or "mouse painting"...finger on mouse or mouse pad...I suspect most fingerpainters are like myself..non artists...who started in MS Paint graduated to PSP Tutorials then ...Corel Draw/ PhotoPaint..
The FingerPainting is created freehand or as vector line art with a mouse pad on a laptop usually but some use the regular mouse (hat's off to them..that mouse is jittery)..NonArtists are hesitant to buy items like Tablets because their talents don't justify the expense. Here is an example of "Mouse Painting" all original ...Jar w/ Spoons ( BTW..Does anyone know if there is an equivalent to PSP push brush in PhotoPaint?)

[Joie]

How on earth did you do that with a mouse? It most have taken you forever to finish, and while we are on the topic, of course you are an artist!
About your question, I dont even have a clue what it means... this whole computer business is pretty new to me. It is my basic foundation that is missing.
Like for instance, I am not even sure how to share a couple of my creations,
which "web server" should I use? Which ones do you use

[Brake Check]

I use my finger on the mouse pad on a laptop..The Line Art was drawn in Corel Draw..then "rendered" (which means painted or colored) in PhotoPaint..
I have never taken an art class..could not draw stick figures. I studied PSP tutorials..The computer/mouse are new art brushes/tools ..Drawing with a mouse isn't any different than learning any other "tool"..Pencils are artificial tools and just as difficult to learn. The most difficult part to learn is perspective, shading, color and composition..just the same as traditional art..I can draw a daffodil and color it just as fast as you can draw...but the proper shading..color and perspective takes study..and more study...The tool, be it finger or pencil, is the easy part..
If you are a Trained Artist on Paper..it would be better to Use a Tablet as that is a familiar tool to you..I have never used anything except my finger and the program "brushes" But fingerpainting takes as many years to learn as drawing with a pencil on paper..You might do a Google Search for PSP tutorials as, I suspect, most PSP users are "finger painters"
Does fingerpainting improve skills? Yes..I could not draw a few years ago...but today.. I was having a problem with perspective on a daffodil painting and I was so frustrated..I grabbed a piece of paper and drew a daffodil from 3 different angles..and the drawings look like daffodils..I suppose, an artist points the pencil with the index finger..
The DOWNSIDE of computer art is that it is poster art..It lacks the textures that are necessary for hanging on walls..and every time the computers change file formats..the art is lost because it can't be "read"
I use bluedomino as a server...it is a few dollars a month but when I was new to servers I liked the 24 hour support (still do) and no ads placed on the pages..
BTW..I stuck the question in because I didn't want to start a new thread...I can use the Push Tool in PSP and save it to .bmp for transportation into PhotoPaint but it is an esoteric question ..I didn't expect a quick answer..even from the experienced users

[Petri.J]

About those TabletPCs..
I have Toshiba Tecra M7-132
http://eu.computers.toshiba-europe.com/cgi-bin/ToshibaCSG/jsp/productPage.do?service=EU&PRODUCT_ID=120566

I also have Wacom Intuos1 at home, and Intuos3 at work, so I think I know what I�m talking about.

In art as general, it�s crucial to have a good monitor, so if you already have a good monitor at home: Calibrate it well and go for Wacom Intuos3.
It�s a good choise. At first it feels wierd and hard to draw to the table and look at the result from the monitor, but you�ll get used to it fairly fast.
When drawing with intuos, I prefer doing the actual drawing work with traditional way, pen and paper, but now after ..eh.. 7 years I�m starting to feel bit more comfortable drawing with Intuos, but it still is very hard to get the line where I want it to go.

I have had my Tecra for two months now, and I really like drawing on screen. It feels so easy after Intuos. The down side of this Tablet PC is that the monitor SUCKS! It just can�t repeate the color scale it should, and that is really annoying. For example from green it cuts almost half of the color palette, and in any picture that is alot! Just open the Photoshop, select green color from the color picker, and reduce the satureation to half, and that is the maximum this display can view. other colors crop quarter from the scale.

So.. Both have goods and bads, make your pick if you can�t afford a cintiq

[Brake Check]

Joie..There are picture hosting sites..I heard of one named Photo Bucket (Paint Bucket?) where you can upload an image then post it to a forum like this one..I don't know much about the image hosting service but I know people who don't want to maintain web sites who use it..and there may be other sites that will host images for uploading into forums and blogs...but you still need a scanner..and some instructions on loading the images..AOL also has free FTP space for home pages..AOL has a program that helps create the page..so there are many options besides maintaining a web site..

Petri ..interesting information about tablets....The write-on screen is new technology..the bugs will be worked out in time which is why I passed on the write-on option when I bought this new computer...Maybe next time..

[Petri.J]

Yes, every new gadget always have bugs. I forgot to mension, that Tablet PC has a small latency when drawing. The first week I..

Tablet PCs are targeted for business people, and not for artists. That's why Tablet PCs don't stand a change in performance with normal laptops, wich are targeted for young students that play games. I actually tried to find the best Tablet PC on the market, but couldn't find any that would fill my quality reguirements. Every Tablet PC seems to have bad monitor, and low quality integrated graphics card.
As I see it, Tablet PCs will remain low quality computers as long as the target customers are business people.

[Brake Check]

Petri
The Big Buck Bug is unfixable and liable to get worse..The original idea..be it PSP or Tablet PC is good and the audience finds the product..Then the Target Audience idiots take over and PSP becomes a photoeditor..Tablet PC's are targeted to older business people..who are presumed to not be able to actually draw on the mouse pad..or deserve or want high quality graphics..
It happened to Country Music ..the target audience is "Debbie, who has two children and lives in the midwest" Who the heck has ever met anyone by that description? The target audience is a phantom in some bean counters imagination..and the original audience is insulted by the cheapening and dumbing down of the original idea..
Then the Music industry blames music download for their woes..
Thanks for the information about the tablets..I have a laptop that has a good graphics card and excellent sensitivity on the mouse pad..so yes, it is targetted to the game players..
That is just one more thing a consumer has to know..who the targeted audience is..But once that happens..once the original idea is lost..the product is usually ruined..

BTW...I found the "push brush" in PhotoPaint..It is the retouch tool and it is fine..Corel does make some good programs..The Graphics Suite has always been a favorite of mine....I am replacing PSP with Corel Draw/PhotoPaint..I was using Painter but..I got to looking around in PhotoPaint and it has all the tools I need..Just have to translate from PSP

[Brake Check]

Free Hand Mouse Drawing...

[Joie]

this whole Tablet pc thing is really starting to chafe where it hurts the most, my pocket, but oh well, not the end of the world...
At least there "is" the option to buy the cintiq. I am sure that Van Gogh would have given his left nut to have one of those...
But anyway, thanks for the info and stuff. Maybe it is a better idea to first produce a respectable picture before posting. That is the thing with me, one day it's this, the other day it's that.

(And Brake Check, it sounds to me like you have solved your own problem) nice one!
(you know what, you can make a print on canvas of that flower, then bring in the colour with acrylics. After that , you should definitely have it framed) how does that sound?
By the way, does anyone in this forum have a "Cintiq 21ux" tablet? Is it really worth saving our butts off before buying one?

[Brake Check]

Joie
acrylics? framed? Sounds scary ..and it is impressive that I can do this on a mouse pad..to me..but..this is an art forum..Anyone here can draw a daffodil twice as good/ twice as fast..Also, I need to draw two more..matching daffodils ..and render one more spoon..to finish my piece..
Now I wrote reams of good advice and deleted it all..in this edit..I will repost it if you like..but in the meantime..
Have another Daffodil..with a few problems..Oh Well, will fix in the morning..
Good Luck!

[Joie]

Yea, why not, at the moment advise would be very much appreciated, thanks.

[Brake Check]

OK All of this is $$$..Get the bang for the buck..
1) I buy graphics programs with an eye to the future..how stable is the company? How much of an upgrade is each upgrade? The reason for this is...if I have a program..the update is usually cheaper if I own other products..but is the company dedicated to development? Will the upgrades be usable upgrades or cosmetic? Which should you buy? Is Adobe PhotoShop better than Corel Painter? Who knows.. It isn't the quality of the program..it is the quality of the artist. Download the free trials..and Learn the Programs..Do tutorials..spend some times learning what the program will do..and whether the program does what You Do
2) Pay attention the graphics/monitor review Petri posted..that is important..Let the sales reps know..you game..fast refresh, quality video card and a high res monitor..Cutting Edge? Stay a bit behind the curve..the newest of the new may have a few bugs
3) Look into the image hosting services..scan some work, post into the forums and talk to people about what you are doing..A web site can be time consuming and technical but if you like or know coding and how to solve the backend problems..go for it
4) Solving Problems..This is new technology..a new frontier and the questions have not been asked yet much less answered..I may be the only person here who has used the retouch/push brush in PhotoPaint and PSP so if the answer isn't forthcoming..it may be no one knows..
That is what I would have told myself when I stumbled into this..But mistakes are more interesting than costly..I bought Corel Draw by mistake..was upset about it until I opened the progam and took a look..Best Mistake I ever made..So look carefully at each thing..it is all new and any of it may be just what you are looking for..

[Joie]

Brake Check, you sound like a very focused individual. Interesting points you've made.

[Petri.J]

Heh, sorry. I was at work, and had to restart my computer, so I couldn't complete what I was about to say, and forgot to edit it later.

Anyways, I was about to say that the cursor latency, my tablet PC has, was disturbing at fist, but since I was drawing daily, after a week I didn't even notice any latency. The only thing that is bugging me about that Tablet PC is the monitor.
Though, yesterday I was thinking about that monitor issue, and thought of an possible fix to it. I used adobe gamma to calibrate the monitor, but since the colors was so much screwed up, adobe gamma wasn't enough. I used Nvidia colorcorrection to tweak the colors in place.
But yesterday, as I was about to say, I figured that maybe it's the Nvidia software that didn't do the correction as well as I had assumed.
But this is only a theory, and I could be wrong, but that's one thing I should test out next time I get some spare time.

[Brake Check]

Petri
I looked at a tablet owned by a friend of mine..The video card is ..newsprint quality..desaturated..but crisp..And that was on a different brand..
I buy computers by sight..and this one is good without any correction..Gateway Laptop..but I have other issues with this machine..so it is like buying anything..tradeoffs

Joie
The single biggest investment is the programs..because of the time and effort spent learning..
To switch to PhotoPaint I have to spend hours figuring out how to do things I do without thinking in PSP..
If the software program goes out of business or sells out or quits developing..it impacts the user in a very big way
Jasc sold PSP...That has been a wrenching change for the customer base who were very dedicated to Jasc PSP..even though the purchasing company has been good about the changes..the new company has PSP as its low end photo editor..where, before, PSP was a competitive, high end, well developed graphics program..at the top end of the PSP line to the bottom end of purchasing companies line..
And that is what Buyer seemed to think of the PSP users abilities and art..low end..possibly correct but it doesn't sit too well when the "low enders" are the customer base..

I had already started switching to Corel's Graphic Suite but selling of PSP has affected me in some ..admittedly..small but very annoying ways..

Joie..not focused..Just "Been there, done that." And I wouldnt' buy a program now thinking it would give me Petri's or Eye Woo's artistic abiility..I wouldn't buy PhotoShop thinking it would make me Craig Mullins
This is a tool just like a paint brush..and although quality tools are important...and there is right tool for the job..it is the quality of the workman after all

[Tomasis]

Tablet PC looks to be such nice thing. Im sure that it'd be enough good as simple "sketch pad". I have to wait when it does down to 1000 euros price :P

[Joie]

Yea, just because you own a flashy Ferrari, doesn't mean you're going to drive like Michael Schumacher.

Did you guys know that PSP could also stand for Paralytic Shellfish Poisoning?

But anyway, at the moment I am fiddling around with Photoshop 6.0, so naturally I am curious to see what the difference is between 6.0 and 9 would be.
Talking about the latancy issue, I wonder if the Cintiq has the same problem?I know,I know, I can't stop thinking about it. I am obsessed. The best bet would probably be the Wacom Intuos3, combined with the newest possible photoshop version.

thanks

[Brake Check]

Joie
The latency is probably the interface between the computer and the tablet..Not the tablet.. What say Petri? Did you have the latency issue on other computers?
Joie....Check out Corel Graphics Suite..Corel X3 also..
Now I like Corel...so I deleted my rave reviews but..try out a bunch of programs..look at Corel..PhotoShop..and the 3D
Take yrour time..with 30 day or more free trials..it might be years before you actually have to make up your mind..

[Brake Check]

Yunno here I am.. The Big Expert..but here is what I don't know..
OK...I see people make this statement:
"That person used ...(shock..) a photo reference"..
Then someone else will Immediately post..
"Yes But, Norman Rockwell used photo references."
Now, I don't want to be uncool so for the other daffodils..I sat outside and stared at the first daffodil in bloom..made some primitive measurement sketches for perspective and drew the two specimens freehand from memory..more or less... But for this one..I looked at a photo while I was drawing this daffodil...That ain't cool? Or is "photo reference" meaning something else? Like tracing? Exact duplicate copying? Or looking at someone elses probably copyrighted photo or artwork? What does " using a photo reference" mean?
My SigO said it didn't look like a daffodil without color..so I put some color..not the best..don't know if it improved it at all..acrylics? Yes, indeed!

[Joie]

"Those who do not want to imitate anything, produce nothing" Dali

A definite improvement, nice shading. Now, what about a cute little ladybird crawling over one of its petals? Or a butterfly? I Dunno, maybe it's a bit too girly for you..
About the 3D thing I mentioned earlier , I didn't know what I was talking about. Afterwards, when I downloaded the software, i realised that I was way off track. A three year training course would cost you about $15 000.

[Brake Check]

It would be helpful to acquaint yourself with Vector and Raster Graphics..It is a good idea to have a Vector Technical Illustration program and a Graphic Paint Program
The Corel Suite would be Corel 3X..includes both Draw and PhotoPaint..Many very good artists use Corel Painter additionally..I use Painter but..I like the precision of the vector engine behind PhotoPaint..which is part of the Corel 3X suite..
The Adobe Package... PhotoShop and Illustrator cost about the same or more than for all three programs above..
With those programs..in a few years..you will learned enough to do Maya..and save the money for training
Thanks for the comments about the daffodils..no butterflies...I am going to do three daffodils in a "painting" based on the practice done with those drawings..then go on to something else..I like technical illustration..
I have to work so I won't be online for a while..Nice talking to you and I will give you my favorite quote

"If you don't have raw talent and the art instructor doesn't think you have any skills worth developing, then it is important that you have a thorough understanding of the fundamentals" US Navy

Also..all of my art is free for anyone to use..download, copy, fold spindle or mutilate..if anyone wants to print out a copy for the kid's to color ..or for practice painting..or for a web site..feel free to do whatever..no strings attached..so you can put the butterfly or ladybug in there if the mood strikes you..