[Jimmyjimjim]

I am REALLY not trying to start a debate here...really (Yeah, I know my track record for debate).

What I'm curious about can be answered by all non-U.S. people around here...

Why is it that it seems the last five to ten years, Americans have been increasingly viewed as dumb, fat, and ignorant? I'm really curious (please, all my fellow Americans, lets let everyone speak without an argument). Keep contrary opinions to yourself for this one.

Have you observed people personally, or is it things you see on TV? Is it the guy that got elected president? I'm really personally curious why we, as people, have such bad reputations. I seem to hear over and over from most Europeans, Africans, Asians, British that most people they meet from the U.S. are very nice, but somehow that doesn't translate into popular opinion overseas. Naturally I can see how people from the Middle-East would dislike us.

Really- I'm just curious. I won't argue with anyone's opinion. Just give me more than "...because you're dumb, fat, and ignorant". Please, again, to any other U.S. citizens on here don't start debate, either. I'm really looking for honest opinions.

[Ranath]

I don't really like stereotypes, but this is what many people seem to think here, and while some might be totally wrong, some definitely have truth to them, as I have seen myself.

media gives a lot of statistics. Let's take the fat -issue for example, a couple of years ago they said over 50% of americans are slightly overweight. I'm sure that's probably not much more than in any European country, and they never said how much "slight" is. But media tells it anyway, I don't know why. But my friend was visiting America and she said the amount of severely obese people was much much higher than here in Finland for example.

Finland seems to pride with it's level of grade school education, and we constantly seem to be on top at all tests (like PISA etc.), while (as we are often reminded) America does there poorly. Also it's kinda widely "known" (meaning, nobody actually knows, but they say..) that the history they teach in America, the geography etc. seem to circulate very much around America themselves, causing the citizens to live in ignorant bliss about the world around them. I think it was some series like Survivors or something, where the opening animation showed the world and the camera zoomed into the island where the people competed. Some study suggested that American children and teens could pick that island from the map no problem, but failed to find their own capital. So it's that kind of stuff.

Also the grammar skills of American people can be sometimes surprisingly bad. Foreigners seem to sometimes know the language better than the natives. You can see this in any public forum where American children post.


What comes to politics, most people today do not really think. They believe what they're told. It's easy to believe something like Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 because the propaganda is done very well. Not to mention that nobody likes a country that's invading others pretending to be some kind of world's police or something, whether the citizens think that or not. It's easy to criticize Bush for the war of Iraq, and most people don't really understand how difficult politics actually are. But neither do they in America, I just heard that majority (like 70% or something?) of Americans don't agree at all with what Bush does.

So yeah, that's my take of what's causing the attitudes you mentioned. However, most people don't really agree with that, it's just the sterotype (like that Finns are unfriendly, rude and quiet to strangers).

[Max]

I have to agree with nearly everything Ranath said already.


Might just add one thing.

[Jabo]

Ok, this topic is sensitive, I hope I don't insult someone.

I think the reason you think people from the Middle-East dislike the USA is the same reason the rest of the world does. Of course we're not personally affected. But a lot - most - of my friends are from the Middle-East (Turks and Arabs represent the biggest part of our immigrants), so this might not be fully objective.

I can just speak for myself and the people I know. Hailing from Germany, the reason is clear: Our ancestors started and fucked up two world wars, killed millions of innocent people and the country was therefore burned to ashes. What resulted from this is a land of conscientious objectors and imperialism-haters.

The US on the other hand is a country that:

a) we don't know much about first of all

I was rather surprised when I read a blog that explains the USA to us (German language) by an American who lives here. I found out that I can't compare our countries because the US are rather something like our EU, not like a state in itself. Your thoughts are completely different. We still love your Hollywood movies, your music (well, the UK is better here ) and like eating at Burger King. But we are completely alienated to the idea of patriotism, nationalism and offensive war. When I meet a US-american, I'm totally jiggered by their self-confidence that borders on arrogance. Okay, I live near Wiesbaden and their Air-Force base, maybe that's why I think this way.

b) doesn't seem to give a shit about other countries' opinions but wants to play world-police (as Ranath puts it)

Old-Europe, anyone? As I learned from the blog above, the federal government doesn't have a lot of influence on the states themselves, I hope I got that right. But it controls the whole external politics. So, the people of your country don't give a shit about what's happening outside and the federal politicians can do whatever they want. Cool.

c) is Christian, insular, highly offensive and prude at the same time

What a mix. I don't get it. Your entertainers (I think they are a mirror of the people) mostly use more foul language in a single sentence than one of ours will use in his whole show, but at the same time your presidents use god as a holy shield? How sick is that?

d) is full of pride

We don't have that here. Not too good either, but at least it stops me from judging from a nationalist standpoint and let's me (nah, obliges me to) think for myself.

e) starts wars, spends billions on them, and at the same lets it's people rot and die inside

The best thing is that you don't seem to get it yourselves. It's almost ridiculous. Instead of pulling out of other countries, the income of those wars has become an unevitable source of wealth.

f) allows it's citizens to carry guns

Sure, it's the people killing people, not the guns. But with a gun, it's way easier. Then again, you're to proud and overly angst-driven to forbid civil gun possession.

g) is DANGEROUS

Probably the most important part. I have the constant hunch of a cannon pointing at me. And ironically it's not coming from the East, but from overseas. As Obi-Wan once said: "I have a bad feeling about this."

Let the flaming begin.

*ducks*

[neff]

Yeah, i think Jabo gets the Point.
I'd like do add, that your law-system is quite strange,
you can sue everyone for everything and get millions.
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*

[Ranath]

[Drew]

Please continue guys, I think this is really interesting.

[Gort]

yeah (says Tom reading and doing his best to honor Jimmy's reques )
_________________
- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[gLitterbug]

Indeed, go on.

[Tinusch]

And lets face it, we do have one fat fucking country

[Max]

That's one of the weird things which might sophisticate statements. The US seem to ba a single country altough it's as big as Europe.
(which has many countries which are all very different)

I don't know much about the relationship between the states inside the US. I'd like to know how americans think about these sterotypes. Actually it shouldn't make a differnce if we are talking about objective things. If everything is subjective again we only waste our time,...At least I, beeing and austrian, can say alot about my country, good and also bad stuff, therefore I don't understand the reason why only non americans should give their opinion about americas sterotypes. Eighter it's the truth or it isn't or it's somwhere between (most likely) however it shouldn't mattern if you're american or not to value this. I myself don't know. It's a complex thing. I think americans should eb able to say more about this than people from europe...no?

[gLitterbug]

Sorry to get slightly off topic for a second and say this, but reading your replies I realized how carelessly unpleasant your spelling has become of late Max. Also stemming from the lovely country of Austria, I am of course interested in it being represented well and put into a positive light. Especially considering what this thread is about in the first place. So I politely ask you to put more effort into the creation of your replies or at least to get off the booze while writing them, lest I have to hang my head in shame about being put into the very same pot as the savages that this ruckus is all about.

[Novacaptain]

You jester.
_________________
It's nice to be important, but more important to be nice - Scooter

[Gort]

[Novacaptain]

Brazillians are usually very receptive towards foreigners. Sure there are stereotypes about americans here too but most of it is based on what comes here from north-american media. So you have your own selves to blame for making it.

Stereotypes:
You gotta have cash or you're a loser.
You gotta show you have cash or you're a loser.
Being a loser is every american's worst nightmare.
Being a winner is everything, even if people only think you are.
Being a hero depends on the bodycount. Higher=better!
War is good for the economy.
Only losers find "moral issues" about sending troops overseas to kill/die for the economy.
Caring for the environment is something that only losers and treehuggers do.
Americans are very christian and pray a lot.
Everything is big in america: cars, cities, highways, people, boobs, steaks, the country itself.
Americans dont know how to drive a car with manual transmission.


Personally, I don't have anything against americans. I am very strongly against war though. War is abominable no matter what the cause and war without a cause is even worse. And yes, it's because the civilians. Soldiers too, but at least american soldiers made a choice to become soldiers.
_________________
It's nice to be important, but more important to be nice - Scooter

[Jimmyjimjim]

[Max]

gLitterbug: I am trying to think of an excuse - can't find one though except that I am rather busy lately - which is no excuse of course.
Okay, take it easy gLitter! Dude - thanks - I will try to be more precise!

[Nag]

I usually don�t participate in these discussions on forums but here goes anyways.

This is a disgussion I�ve had with many people, Europeans, Americans, Asians. My words come not only from myself, but are also the views of many people around me.

The US, in the past, has never been perfect (like every single other nation in the world) but they have always been improving and beeing on the way of realising a dream. On the right path.

Untill recently.

It is the perversion of this progress that is the core of the gripe agains the US today. Today the US seem to be corrupted, ignorant and engineering wars openly and without shame. Of course not everyone is like that in the US, but the goverment hawks get away with misleading the general puplic.

I think the root of the problem is that majority of people that are living in the States are amazingly ignorant of the world around them. I�m not refering to anyone on these forums and I have many good friends from the States that are excactly the opposite and are very enlightened and open minded people, so please don�t take this the wrong way. Put it "appears" that the majority is less educated. Probably because the people in the spotlight (like the president and his entire cabinet) are. They promote extremism, religious zealotry and ignorance.

I was in the states not long ago in California and I turned on the TV, and watched for a while and flipped through around 30 channels to see what was on. What I found striking was that there did�nt seem to be any "substance" there were only some "cops and robbers" shows, some miniscule internal news (cats stuck in a tree), propagandish commercials from large mega corporations and a one sided view of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. I just found this profoundly sad and sympathised with americans that this is all you guys get. Even the strongest minds cannot withstand a constant current of misinformation.

About apathy, lets take the popular and simple example of geography. It�s like the general puplic can�t point out where Europe is on the world map, they think Australia is Iraq and China is Holland - and does Holland even exist?. If this was a tribe in the jungles of Kuala Lumpur this would�nt matter. But if a super power which hosts the U.N. and has their fingers in international politics is this badly educated about the rest of the world then this becomes a grave matter.

I have not met a single person in my country (and the rest of europe) that thinks the current president is a good one and I would go as far as saying that he is one of the worst in the history of the US (if not the worst), atleast PR vise with other nations of the world. The fact that he got elected again after 4 years, was to me and many others the last straw. A man that cheated in his first elections got elected again? How is that even possible?

I really could go on and on, I still have�nt touched the subject of how the US stands against environmental issues, a serious issue and you can�t imagine how much I sympathise with my own children and future grandchildren that they very likely have to live through dark times ahead when global warming has serious effects on the world.

About religion.. well this is a touchy subject. I�m an atheist myself so I won�t go into that. I don�t mind religion at all but I detest fanaticism.

I hope I did�nt offend anyone. These are just my oppinions.

[Mikko K]

To be honest, I think if some of the european countries were as wealthy and influential as the US, they would behave more or less the same.

There should be a Defcon-style game made out of the global economy where you would basically fight wars by economics. Putting sanctions on evil countries and what not. Each time you tighten the financial grip over someone, you would see messages like "10 000 people malnourished" or something..

Whoops I got a bit carried away here.. anyway this soooo tiring subject matter to discuss.

[Capt. Fred]

Many of the popular themes of the modern world are generating malcontent. Capitalism, weird 'Democracy', Political marketing (propaganda), Governments gaining power, Surveillance, multi-million dollar PR. Partly unfairly, America represents all that stuff, because it represents the modern world.

Also some of the statements that come out of the white house are pure naked aggression. Take some recent statements about space.

'Last August, President Bush laid out a new US national space policy which said Washington would "preserve its rights, capabilities and freedom of action in space" and "dissuade or deter others from either impeding those rights or developing capabilities intended to do so".

The statements are frankly unbelievable. And there is no doubt as to what they are saying:

"The United States will oppose the development of new legal regimes or other restrictions that seek to prohibit or limit U.S. access to or use of space", whilst threatening to "deny, if necessary, adversaries the use of space capabilities hostile to US national interests".

"We will do what we goddam want in space. If you try to do the same we will kill you."

It's worth a reminder that we are all equal on this planet and all countries (groups of people) have equal rights. If you used the America's international attitudes in school you would be called a bully, where as Finland would probably be called a nice boy.

/
Sorry, that got a bit tetchy.

[Nilwort]

Well, by historical standards, North America is a relatively new continent to be settled by hostile white humans. It is radically different than other countries because of the new-ness (again by historical standards) of its infrastructure and the large surface area that it has covered in such a short amount of time. The screwiness of American culture is simply a product of a precocious young country that is going through one of those silly adolescent phases. And you know how awkward those are!

[Diruo]

Well said, Capt Fred.

For me, personally, my negative view of the United States comes mainly from the actions of your government. The US being, without question, the largest enemy of democracy and freedom throughout the world since the second world war. Whether in South-east Asia, South and latin America or the middle-east. We're talking constant subversion of democratic movements, overthrowing democratically elected governments and replacing them with brutal (albeit US friendly) regimes and support of sitting dictators even in full knowledge of the crimes they are committing (see Saddam Hussein).

If we're talking about the current US administration the critique should be obvious to anyone. One argument I hear a lot from Americans is statesments like: "That's our government! We know it sucks, but what has that to do with us?". Well, that's a notion that could be applicable to Iraq. We have no reason to dislike the people of Iraq for the actions of Saddam. But when the people ELECT someone like Bush, not only once but TWICE, in the light of knowing that he's a greater mass-murderer than Saddam ever was... it reflects poorly on the people (to say the least).

Now, the educated among us know that you are merely cleverly manipulated by the industry of propaganda and control that is the American media, and that your ignorance is really not your fault. Well, I could forgive you, but I suspect that to most living outside the "American media bubble" the actions of your people seems utterly absurd and, I might add, evil.

But if you want to know why people outside the US think as they do, listen to people like Mr Chomsky, for example. He will give you a more thorough picture than I could. I suggest you start here: (and watch all 7 parts)
The Assault on Freedom and Democracy - 1 of 7

Or do a youtube or google video search on Noam Chomsky.

[Gort]

[Ranath]

and you get your impression from where, Gort? You actually think your goverment is decent? How's the US media any more honest than ours? We have no chance but to believe the stuff media gives us, and media is not honest. Has never been, will never be, even in the might United States (at least not there, I would say).

[gLitterbug]

You better watch your back now Ranath, you might have just woken the Defender of the United States of America.

[Drew]

[Gort]

Mine too - I'm cracking up! (Mmm - this is damn good popcorn)
_________________
- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[Ranath]

such confidence! I wonder what the defenders would want to say, other than "that's wrong because I'm not like that". While I think too the manual transmission thing was kinda hilarious, there's a lot of stuff americans are going to have hard time just explaining away.

[Jabo]

Obviously you're wrong. Whatever it is, it can be dismissed

[Gort]

Ranath - you're assuming too much, which is dangerous in itself in regards to objective thinking. I get the sense, which I could very well be wrong, that you're taking it personally.

We can take this "off-thread" if you want - PM me.
_________________
- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield