[Vesuvius]

I realize I may be in the minority in my feelings on this, as VoodooExtreme (a games site)and PennyArcade (a game comic) are both in favor of this product, but I for one am deeply bothered by this.

the american military spent 7 MILLION creating an advertisement/recruitment game (which is higher then the majority of other games created for PC in terms of budget). this game, marketed towards the very young as much as to the old ( and keep in mind the FPS game market has a LARGE portion of children 8-15 who play them), it glorifies the military, ignored the collateral death and destruction that our military causes, and makes military service seem fun. the game trains children to learn military hand communication gestures, formations, and protocols. the game also is only available by providing personal information to the US army.

Distortion of the truth of military service ( that it all is glorious and righteous), enticement of children, and tracking users for the purpose of further recruitment effort, at an expense far higher than that required ( and an expense paid by taxpayers) bothers me greatly. it may be a fun game, and I may play it, but it can be a dangerous tool in that those who are ignorant of the truths of our military ( and those so caught up in games that they cannot differentiate at their young age potential REAL suffering from amusement in a game) can be easily misled and used.

[burn0ut]

yes, it'll work, and we will have a huge army... a huge army of.. NERDS...

[[Shizo]]

HEhehe americans are such pussies

No but seriously you guys, army games = sick.

[Impaler]

If you and I, the lowly proletariat, aren't fooled, then who will be, Vesuvius?

I can guarantee that every nerd aross America was laughing his cynical ass off when they heard the military was making a game, instead of thinking, "w0w! this military shit be the motherfucking l33tz0rz bizomb!".

The claim that the game is only available by providing personal information is wrong. The games will be coming free with all sort of gaming magazines, and you can go by and pick it up at your local recruitment office.

I'll also wager that you didn't make as big a fuss when Return to Wolfenstein came out, or when Counterstrike reached the million player mark. Those games glorify the military to the same extent, except it's not shoved in our face because it's made by fellow nerds.

And, hey. It's a free game, albeit on the Unreal engine.

[[Shizo]]

I'm pretty sure they're using a UT2003 engine there baby.

[Coaster]

sick, but nothing new.
Propaganda is everywhere in games..
and the sad thing is people like it when they play a game demonizing actaul groups that they're suposed to already hate.

[Anthony]

Let's see..I'm trying to promote my profession, which I believe is noble and good, by and large. So do I create an image of my profession as something where you must accept morally questionable orders, or do I create an image where you are noble and good? Its simple advertising, and you can't expect people to promote the downsides of their product.

[elam]

Vesuvius, chill out.

It's for recruiting purposes. It's no different than ads they play on TV.

Have you actually played the game, or served in the military for that matter? If not, then stop whining, please.

[edraket]

You get a free game.
They get their recruits.
The europeans can shrink their army even more and spend their money on better purposes.

Everyone happy.

[Basse_Ex]

I'd wish they'd make a "The Norwegian Army" game. That would totally rock. Think of the gameplay possibilities:

- Crush 50 000 new toilets that were ordered by mistake!
- Shoot up hundreds of millions of kroners in in ammunition and rockets to keep the defence budget steady!
- Crash brand new destroyerboats into reefs!
- Blow up dozens of new tanks cuz they got the wrong screws!
- Bomb the chinese embassy in Serbia!

How is this all possible?
With high-tech ultra tactical planning and coordination by old   cellphones!
Man, what a sweet game that would be. There could even be a mini-game where you get to teach americans how to ski. Amazing.

[ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: Basse_Ex ]

[Gimbal8]

I'm really looking forward to Raven Shield and Doom3.

And the 4 player Godzilla: Destroy all Monsters game for the Gamecube. The new Robotech game looks sweet.

And I just spent almost all of last night reading the 200+ page addition to the manual for Falcon4 since the Superpak3 patch was just released.

I love games. I say 'Make games, not war'.

[Pat]

The best part of the game is you shoot terrorists. This becomes a moral quagmire because you can only choose to be a US soldier. However, in-game you appear to be a terrorist to the other team and vice versa. I guess one man's patriot is another man's terrorist.

-Pat

[cheney]

What do you guys want to know about the US Army. I am an NCO in the army. If there is something you wish to know I can mostly likely tell you.

So, please ask, because most of you prolly do not know as much as you think you know.

Keep in mind that the Army is a good thing. Its the only socialistic aspect of American culture. Once you are in the military you get unlimited free health care, free college, career training that is usually compatible with the civilian market (unless you become infantry or artillery), and you get to try to places such as Korea or Germany all while getting paid and having almost no expenses.

[ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: cheney ]

[Ysg]

Hopefully this is a sign that video games won't be blamed for societies problems anymore. The 7 million was the budjet for two army games (the other one seems kinda lame though)
The only mistake that the military made is their glorifying the wrong thing, if they want to make game of the year they gotta glorify crime man!

[Giant Hamster]

Reasons this game won't ever get to serve it's purpouse:

1. In two hours after release: Someone's gonna make a crack, a false personal information patch, a cd-protection remover, and distribute it online, through p2p programs, and on ftp's for free; so you won't have to pay or fill anything out.

2. The army, although wasting lots of money on it, will never be able to satisfy fickle little gamer kiddies. They will all go back to playing Q3, Tribes, and CS within' a week.

3. If this game is supposed to be a recruitment device of such nerds, Comments such as; "The Physics suck!", "Where's the rail gun?", and "Stop shooting me, i'm on your team, you fag!" will definately get them all killed in any real battle.

4. Silent hand gestures; weapons that require you to actually take out the clip, grab a new one off your belt, and put it in the gun; way too many controls, and many other advanced and special features will scare most un-experienced players back into games they're more comfortable with.

5. After the nude patch is released the game will loose any integritiy it might have had.

[ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: Giant Hamster ]

[Akolyte]

I wonder if you can rocket jump in real life?

[Coaster]

I thought they had wars to recruit people for video games..

[Nilwort]

This game is FREE! stop complaining! I'd rather have a free game sent to you than a useless series of be "all that you can be" "army of one" commercials...

[Dr. Bang]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Akolyte:
I wonder if you can rocket jump in real life?

---

you could, but then you would land in pieces.

[-HoodZ-]

what no vehicles? OFP is still probably the best simulation out there right now...and im looking forward to that add on...i just love em tanks

[Vesuvius]

quote:

---

Originally posted by elam:
Vesuvius, chill out.

It's for recruiting purposes. It's no different than ads they play on TV.

Have you actually played the game, or served in the military for that matter? If not, then stop whining, please.

---

I can't complain about the way the military works, the excessive collateral damage, the wasted money, the numerous reported accidents from seeming lack of training unless I join an organization I disagree with?
that's like saying you can't complain about the KKK unless you're a member.

and as for the game, I've come as close as anyone else, I've read a large number of interviews and previews regarding it.

[glody]

i hear the game is actually gonna be a good game...which i have yet to see...graphics look pretty sweet...an if it runs on the unreal engine...it should feel rather creamy with the mouse...so we shall see...im still waiting for unreal tournament 2003 ......of course its not going to make me want to join the army at all....i almost joined outta highschool because i wasnt sure what i wanted in my life...glad i chose art/design.......i do take pride in america an all that...but...im not a fighter....im a gamer

[elam]

quote:

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I can't complain about the way the military works, the excessive collateral damage, the wasted money, the numerous reported accidents from seeming lack of training unless I join an organization I disagree with?
that's like saying you can't complain about the KKK unless you're a member.

---

Of course you can complain. You can say whatever you want. But when you throw generally ignorant statements around about something you know little about through actual experience, you sound like an idiot, imo.

Why don't you explain to me how "the military works" and the "excessive collateral damage"?

[Vesuvius]

we fund and have funded those warlords though.
we funded bin laden and the taliban during their fight with russia and afterwards we encouraged them to establish government in afghanistan.
we are have currently (within the last 2-3 months) and may still, I'm not sure, fund dostum, of whom there has been evidence (known of for years) that he committed war crimes.

[Nilwort]

Vesuvius: What did we get in return for funding them?

we got the communists out of the middle east and unknowlingly created the taliban.

And we funded the other guy(s) to get rid of the taliban.

Yeah, the US did screw up, but what else was supposed to be done? At the time, funding the pre-taliban seemed like a better idea than sending in our military to fight the communists and starting or re-ignighting a cold war.

Same thing recently with trying to get rid of the taliban, why not use the local people rather than jumping in ourselves and getting people pissed off even more that we are there in the first place? It's not the US's fault that the only people with enough power in afganistan to make change are crazy warlords...

The US is in a really tough position, we've become this global peace-maker, but in doing that we've also become a target for critisism and terrorism. Ok why don't we just pull everyone out of Afganistan and everywhere around the world and see what happens? In a perfect world where no evil or greed existed this would be perfectly plausible...but it's not. Things don't always work out perfectly, sometimes we may have to fund shady characters in order to achieve a greater good. It's a really delicate situation and everthing isn't going to work with no death or injustice, that view of the world just isn't realistic anymore.

[ June 09, 2002: Message edited by: Nilwort ]

[elam]

Excessive collateral damage? That implies there is acceptable colateral damage!

So tell me, Vesuvius, what isn't excessive? 500? 1000?

Your argument falls apart if YOU decide what is excessive!

It's either no collateral damage or what you can manage, and I believe the U.S. goes out of it's way to protect civilians.

Afganistan ain't America. 20+ years of civil war have turned that place into hell. Figuring out friend or foe is a crapshoot.

I'm glad you care so much about the Taliban. Remember that these people beat and murder women for showing their faces in public, herd people into stadiums for public execution, and destroy priceless cultural artifacts in the name of Islam. The Taliban and Al-Qeda are worthless.

You want to get all teary eyed over violence, feel sorry for Daniel Pearl, not these pieces of shit, who are no better than petty muderers.

Don't blame the American military for 20+ years of fucked up foreign policy. Blame yourself if you didn't vote, or blame your parents for being apathetic, or blame The American public in general for being fat ass, ignorant, dumb-asses.

But please, don't blame the average military man/woman who's just doing there job, trying to make a living, while you sit safe and snug in your dorm room, preaching what is morally right or wrong.

[ June 09, 2002: Message edited by: elam ]

[Awetopsy]

hmm Vesuvius is entitled to his opinion on this.

I can see some good coming from this.. take a person who is mentally unstable... a potential Mass murderer.. who has had no disciplinary training in his life plays this game and thinks to himself, I could go into the army.. who knows but that army training woulndt help him straighten his life out.. and if he is a problem he peels potatoes and get put out on the front lines. (in no way is that to say that mentally unstable people are all potential mass murderers or that Games make murderers or anything)

there can be good things that come from somethinglike this. all it is is a marketing play.. and besides the actual cost of the game comes out to less than a dollar divided up between how many million tax payers?

I want to try it. Ill play it a bit

[Vesuvius]

elam, you do realize you're a bigot, don't you? yes a large portion of the people of afghanistan believed nasty things and a large portion of those in the government DID horrible things- but we put that government in power, and beyond that, while bringing people to justice is one thing, ending the lives of people who are unarmed and either totally innocent or are willing to pay for their crimes is sadistic.
YOUR argument makes no sense, saying that merely because I don't have an all or nothing attitude, what I say is not valid.
I UNDERSTAND that if you're playing around with weapons, for good reasons or bad, people can and will get hurt, and having a small number of deaths for a good end, while not something I like, is something I recognize is necessary at times. just because some deaths are necessary does not however excuse the military from being careless with human life, which they have been.
I'm not in a dorm room, I haven't gone through college yet for financial reasons, I work full time. I don't blame the average military man, but I do blame the institution and the leadership.
and I'm not in the mood for you spitting out judgements about me or my life as a way to justify this.

[elam]

quote:

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I'm not in a dorm room, I haven't gone through college yet for financial reasons, I work full time. I don't blame the average military man, but I do blame the institution and the leadership.
and I'm not in the mood for you spitting out judgements about me or my life as a way to justify this

---

You're profile says your a student.

All you're statements to this point have been broad, vague, and hypocritical and lacking any sort of proof.

On one hand, it's terrible to have a game that 'glorifies military service, ignores colateral damage...blah blah' but hey! it's a fun game and I'll play it! Wheeee!!

Colateral damage is bad, in fact, it's 'sadistic', but hey, it's okay if a *whole* bunch of people don't die. Golly!

I'm not being a bigot. I'm simply pointing out the inconsistencies in your arguments.

[Vesuvius]

when I made my profile, 2 years ago, I was a student, a high school student. that has nothing to do with my argument.
my statements were not (for the most part) broad, and if something is not understood by you, you should ask what I mean.
I was not a hypocrite at any point, human suffering should be minimized, if that means that we need to attack to end their suffering under the taliban, and our own potential suffering from terrorism, then we should, but we should be careful so as to minimize damage to the innocent, which I know we have not been. we should also be responsible, for that same reason, in regards to who we lend large amounts of money and weaponry to.
"On one hand, it's terrible to have a game that 'glorifies military service, ignores colateral damage...blah blah' but hey! it's a fun game and I'll play it! Wheeee!!"
I didn't say I'd play it, and if I did play it that wouldn't be a problem because I'm entering the situation while aware of (many of the)costs of military action, my main problem was that this game, like most FPS games, will be played by the young and ignorant who will not know better than to think that our military is always the just hero they will be portrayed as, and many of whom will consider military service more seriously at a young age prior to gaining the perspective necessary to make that choice responsibly.
"Colateral damage is bad, in fact, it's 'sadistic', but hey, it's okay if a *whole* bunch of people don't die. Golly!"
yes, excessive collateral is sadistic and negligent, I accept that a small number of innocent may die as a result of even the most necessary responsible military action- that doesn't mean I have to like it when we cause thousands of preventable innocent deaths (and I do consider it preventable when the death comes from not bothering to check the source of your intelligence before bombing away, and not bothering to confer with your allies as to where their troops are before going in at night and killing 10, arresting 30 of your allies.
it's not inconsistent, and if you think so you need to re-read it.