[Pixie Nim]

Hmmm, the argument has escalated...

Okay, while I entirely agree with Vesuvius' comments on artistry and originality, maybe it wasn't such a good idea to start shouting and swearing at people... not a criticism, just a comment... I'm not picking sides...

ahh, but the debate. Okay, well I have more than a few points to make, so allow me to ramble for a second:
Wayfinder, let's start with you, shall we?

quote:

---

people dont want good music
people want to project an image
eminem gives them that. marilyn manson gives them that. korn and slipknot and icp and bodycount do/did it.
you may care about the quality of the music
that means that you are part of a minority
your vision of good music may differ from everyone else's quite heavily

---

sadly, you are right, to some extent. People who love music because it is a creative art form, and a form of expression, are in the minority. Most people seem to think music is a brand name. But that doesn't make it right. Not everyone wants to "project an image", some of us are actually interested in listening to something intelligent, well-thought-out, and well written. That's not so much to ask, is it? But it seems you think such views should not be spoken. Well, I have news for you.

Chaney:

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Its logical. If a band sucked ass then they would not have an album go platinum 28 times. You have to admit selling an album 28,000,000 times is a whole lot.

oh, what light of wisdom died and made you king?
Firstly, have you never heard of marketing? The Spice Girls have sold considerably more records than Eminem ever will, as have Boyzone, but I don't claim (and I don't believe anyone could with a straight face) they are actually any good. They are manufactured pop bands, designed to be fashionable to the under 13s, and basically high class overpaid pocket-money stealers. Judging how much money you made is no sort of example of how good you are. Orbital have sold a hellava lot less albums than the Spice Girls, but they're much much better, write their own music (shock! gasp!) and what's more, they've been around MUCH longer.

quote

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sh*t cheney.. you're perfect type to be religious - "woah.. millions of buddhists can't be wrong! harri krishna!"

heh, this amused me. Nice one, Shizo...

PixelSoldier:

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What bands do you listen to Vesuvius? From the way you speak, you must listen to the Teletubbies soundtrack 24/7. You seem to be violently against any negativity in music - whether it be satire or not.

Nah, I think he's just violently against shite. Which is a fair enough view to have and one I share.
I don't approve of music that condones stupidity... such as: rape, and beating women, and murder, and having a gun (how impressive and hard!), and getting into fights, etc etc etc... because it's stupid, and sadly, some people are stupid enough to take it seriously. You can't deny that Eminem spouting his homophobic views to whoever can't get away fast enough is not going to be shrugged off as some sort of eccentricity by some of his fans. Some of them will take it to heart. Eminem abuses what is essentially a position of responsibility. Like it or not, he's a role model to thousands.
I'm not saying, of course, that I condone some sort of mass censorship action meaning artists are not allowed to say what they want. Eminem takes it to far - and I'm not sure if that's because he actually believes these things, or because he just likes the publicity. Neither is particularly good.
Apehx Twin wrote some very dodgy lyrics himself, but I don't object to him. The difference is that his music is inspired, original, and comes from a tradition of inventiveness. His lyrics were more satirical than offensive. Not approving of people shouting how much they hate gays does not mean I have to sit around and listen soley to Bob the Builder.

Right, I believe that concludes today's rant. Any questions?

Pixie
xxxxx

[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: Pixie Nim ]

[cheney]

No amount of marketing can possibly sell an album 28,000,000 if the music sucks. Maybe that is why the Eagles have sold more albums than Eminem. o.O

If marketing alone could make a band then NSync would rule the entire world as an evil dictator, and Eminem would be a puppet dictator.

[cheney]

I suppose if popularity is only backed by marketing rather than good music Pink Floyd must be one seriously inflated version of Nsync to have sold so many damn albums while have the most expensive and elborate concerts in history ever.

If marketing were the only issue in place (rather than good music) then bands like Beatles, Pink Floyd, or Metallica would never rise above their very small target of children. Such bands must have some appeal to more than just children or they would not have been so popular.

[Basse_Ex]

Chill out people?!??

You see, there exists some things called "Sarcasm" and "Irony". These two things are often used to create another thing, called "fun".
Artists like Eminem and Marilyn Manson, uses these strange things called "Sarcasm" and "Irony", to have "fun" themselves, and to say something about society(No matter how unoriginal and unimportant that message may be).
Eminem is having fun. He's using a tool called "exaggeration" to tell something about normal situations. When he raps about killing his wife, he doesn't actually go out and kill his wife, but he imagines the situation to it's utmost extreme. He uses it as a way of getting rid of aggression(It can also be used by listeners for the same purpose). It becomes a sort of happy-violence. Similar to what computer-game players get out of playing games like Mortal Combat, Soul Calibur, Soldier of Fortune, Zelda, Postal, or Nerf Arena.
Eminem is using these elements for shock value, another way for him to have fun, make money, and actuallu force people to view things in a slightly different way. Eminem is probably telling a lot more important things through his lyrics than Creed or Radiohead or Eagles put together. He is making a statement on society. But that statement may not be exactly what he is saying in his lyrics.

Does that mean his music is good?

No. But his music isn't bad either. He's got Dr.Dre, and anyone who's got the first Snoop Doggy Dog album knows that has to count for something.

Does that mean his message is good?

No, he's saying a lot of fucked up things, and underneath all the humour and shock effects, there probably are some fucked up meanings. But no more than those sleazy motherfucker's behind "Moral majority" artists like Britney Spears and Backstreet Boys.

Look at Cheney's list. What do you see?

It's just a bunch of drug-romancers, satanists, shock-rockers, sell-outs, and bat-eaters.

REM one of the most inspirational bands of the 80's?
What the fuck did they release in the 80's?
Or rather, what the fuck that anyones heard about did they relase in the 80's?

Alice in Chains, inspirational? Who the fuck did they inspire? Don't fucking say Creed, because NO-ONE listens to fucking Creed outside the US.

The Eagles?

Fucking hell?!?

Do they actually have more than one song?

I won't buy Eminems new album, but I'd gladly listen to it 24 hours a day, if it means I wont have to hear "Hotel California" ever again.

Now back to some good music...

...(Puts on some Hank Williams SR)...

[cheney]

The Eagles may not have more than 1 song, but appearently that one song was enough to sell 28,000,000 albums.

Alice in Chains inspired Metallica. Lars has said this on MTV countless times. Since Lars writes most of the Metallica songs..........

[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: cheney ]

[Basse_Ex]

McDonalds has sold umpteen billion burgers, but they still taste like paper with pickles and ketchup.

[[Shizo]]

"I don't approve of music that condones stupidity... such as: rape, and beating women, and murder, and having a gun"

Thats why i like Nirvana : "And i dooont have a guun.. no i DONT have a gun.." :D

[pixelsoldier]

Did I insult you, you insignificant little ball of shit?

You suck. You have no artistic talent, and you're an enormous asshole. Quite obviously, you're no older than eight and lack the mental capacity to argue a point without using endless profanity.

Go away, you're pathetic. I actually laugh out loud when I read your shit. Not because it's funny, but because you're just so, so sad.

[Vesuvius]

you haven't a fucking clue. I do have artistic talent, I may not be prolific or as high quality as the best here but I most certainly am above average, but that's not even the point here. the point, my dear fellow, is that I got pissed that you resorted to a defense that made no sense whatsoever, that came down to an attack on me and my taste, and that drew conclusions which had jack shit to do with the points made. but you're to dumb to see that. I'm not leaving, I've been on this board for over 2 years, so tough shit.

oh, and better to have the mental capacity to argue a point with profanity than to not have the mental capacity to understand my points at all and therefore voice arguments with no relevence, as you have.

[pixelsoldier]

'but you're to dumb to see that. I'm not leaving'

The irony. Are you still unable to tell the difference between to, too, and two?

Keep on replying, you're doing a lot more to prove my case of you being a retard than I am.

[Vesuvius]

oh yes, because I typed to quickly to spell one word correctly means all of my points are obviously invalidated. like I said you are avoiding the issues raised.

[wayfinder]

pixie nim, let's start with you!

��O(...)

you conveniently left out of your quote of my post the one sentence that makes your statement go *poof*.

here you are:

quote

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if it sucks, try and change it within your reach.

Bitching and moaning about the damn kids who like the image and don't care about the music isn't going to change a damn thing. they don't even hear you.

i like good music myself, hell, i MAKE music myself, and would rather be regarded on grounds of artistic value and carftsmanship than image, but sometimes it just doesn't happen, you know?

now, WHAT news do you have for me?

[XandGash]

"Since I'm in a position to talk to these kids, and they listen.
I ain't no politcial, but I'll kick it with 'em a minute.
You see, they call me a menace, and if the shoe fits, I'll wear it.
But if it don't, then y'all'll swallow the truth, grin and bear it.
Now who's the king of these rude, ludacris, lucrative lyrics?
Who could inherit the title to put the youth in hysterics.
Using his music to steer it, sharing his views and his merits.
But there's a huge interference. They're saying you shouldn't hear it.
Maybe it's hatred I spew, maybe it's food for the spirit.
Maybe it's beautiful music I made for you to just cherish.
But I'm debated, disputed, hated and viewed in America
As a motherfucking drug addict, like you didn't experiment?
That's when you start to look at who's in the mirror.
And see your self as a kid again, an you get embarrassed.
And I got nothing to do, but make you look stupid as parents.
You fucking do-gooders, too bad you couldn't do good at marrige."

This is most of the first verse of a song called RENEGADE that Eminem did with Jay-Z.

The basic jist of it is that he's trying to make music for people who respect his imagination, no matter how extreme it is, and the depth of his rhymes("Shady's as bad as they say he is...Satanist, scatterbrained Atheist"), but people slam him for the extreme lyrics he puts out. These same people probably did more drugs in the 70's and 80's than their kids ever will, and lived in times where some of the narrowminded views expressed in EM's songs were commonplace, views that are still around in today, in smaller but still disturbing proportions, among people who don't even listen to music like his. In a time where parents put their kids on time-outs, and the kids tell them to fuck off, they seek to control the media that influences the children that they're unequipped to control. It's like suing McDonalds, because they didn't put heat warnings on their HOT COFFEE. This will hurt if you pour it on your crotch.

I'm looking forward to his new album. This is a guy who made me laugh during a song where his wife was screaming for her life. Even a female friend of mine, with several gay friends, got a chuckle out of it. I listen to everything from Clasical to Rock, except Country. I like well crafted music, no matter what the content.

Side note: I'm tired of the predictable pop formula. verse, chorus, verse, chorus, breakdown, build-up, chorus. Did anyone else realize that "La Vida Loca" and "She Bangs" had exactly the same pace and flow, just with slightly different music and lyrics?

[[Shizo]]

Doesnt 'she bangs' mean that the boobies are bangin'? I think thats what i heard about a woman with large breast implants once.

[travis travis]

who gives a shit about eminem? talking about your self-induced conflict with the media isn't exactly new ground. and he's definitely spiraling down into boring abstract self-indulgence and less interesting observation

i saw him perform on saturday night live the other day and it bordered on retarded. he was for some reason holding a kerchief which he flicked during the whole performance and wearing jammies. methinks the eminem show is eminems 'oops i did it again'

[glody]

bah....sit down in front of your computer pop in a tool cd start drawing an shut the fuck up

*ahem* i mean that in the most respectful tone possible....

[XandGash]

Love him or hate him, he managed to beat every other artist's weekly sales in just one day. As far as this being his "Oops, I did it again", critics across the board are calling this his most cohesive album yet, citing that you actually get a better understanding of where he's coming from. Eminem reminds me of Archie Bunker or Peter Griffin from Family Guy. It's not the bad that he's saying that're funny, it's the fact that he's saying them. Let's see, top selling CD, #1 on both 106&Park and Trl, very well produced tracks, critical acceptance....yeah, sounds like the album is crap.

[XandGash]

quote:

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Originally posted by cheney:
Its logical. If a band sucked ass then they would not have an album go platinum 28 times. You have to admit selling an album 28,000,000 times is a whole lot.

Clearly somebody must like that album. If nobody liked that band then maybe they would not have sold so many albums.

---

Explain Creed then. They suck balls, are uninspired and bland.

[Basement bound]

I am not one that is a 'expert' when it comes to music. I do though have an ability to recognize 'good' sounding tunes. No arguments here about the generics of the music industry. Mr. Mathers has alot of horrible messages in his music. He is a talented musian. Just listen to 85% of the rappers out there, the music is not smooth, has a horrible rythm and half the time they don't even make an attempt at rhyming.
I don't know what the obssesion about movement to a Mature music is all about. For instance, movement from rap/pop to classical. How, can someone feel one is the better? We are talking about music here, sure one is more complicated and tecknical. But, so are paintings does not make one better than the other. It's music, aesthetic sound.

JA

[turnip]

Blame MTV and radio.
Creed...HAHAHA...seriously blame it on radio.

[glody]

rap is just "music" to hump ladies on a dance floor for hours at a time...border line rape if you think about it...

[Vesuvius]

glody, you're a moron. I don't like rap, and I don't like eminem, but there are talented rappers out there, and there are shitty rappers out there as well, but neither of them makes music for the purpose of committing 'borderline' rape.

[edible snowman]

vesuvius are you ever in a good mood?

[glody]

quote:

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Originally posted by Vesuvius:
glody, you're a moron. I don't like rap, and I don't like eminem, but there are talented rappers out there, and there are shitty rappers out there as well, but neither of them makes music for the purpose of committing 'borderline' rape.

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i would have to say moron is a bit harsh...if you learn how to read a bit closer into things...you will realize that i didnt say "rappers make music for the purpose of committing borderline rape"....i was referring to the ignorant fuckers out on the floor gettin their "groove" on................you dumb fuck...

learn to read and it will make the world a better place...

oh...and i want you to do me a favor...next time your at a dance club or even a party...where there is "rap" music playing and people dancing....look around and observe...what are the guys generally doing to the ladies? they are "grinding" the living hell out of their asses...and even...dare i say it?!! their INNER CROTCH AREAS!!!!


now...picture this with their clothes off? what does it look like?? well..mebe not rape but borderline horizontal consensual sex

one more thing...you take me too seriously...dumb ass

oh...and you can take that moron comment and shove it directly up your ass...

[ May 31, 2002: Message edited by: glody ]

[Vesuvius]

you said 'rap is just "music" to hump ladies'
if that's it's sole purpose, then it is logical to assume that there is no other purpose for which it would be made.

beyond that, go kill yourself, or if I see you I will.

PS- edible snowman, very very rarely...

[XandGash]

quote:

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Originally posted by turnip:
Blame MTV and radio.
Creed...HAHAHA...seriously blame it on radio.

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Creed sucks balls so bad, Eminem wants to stab them. See, if you don't get the underlying humor in that "abusive" comment, then Eminem is definitely not for you.

[ June 01, 2002: Message edited by: XandGash ]

[glody]

quote:

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Originally posted by Vesuvius:
you said 'rap is just "music" to hump ladies'
if that's it's sole purpose, then it is logical to assume that there is no other purpose for which it would be made.

beyond that, go kill yourself, or if I see you I will.

PS- edible snowman, very very rarely...

---

what i said and what YOU interpreted are not may fault...your retarded, you were dropped as a baby and theres no other explination for it....sooo...kill yourself my friend....people like you deserve to.

[[666]Flat]

quote:

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Originally posted by glody:
rap is just "music" to hump ladies on a dance floor for hours at a time...border line rape if you think about it...

---

"Border line rape"... muahahaha...

[zak]

vesuvious and everyone else. we seem to have a BIG misunderstanding here. there is no point arguing about this any longer, like i normally say "whatever turns you on" just because someone likes eminem one cant start picking on him/her, and that goes the other way too. i listen to everything really, and i have to say that his new video put a grin on my face to say the least, but some of his stuff is utter bollocks. same with other artists. except creed. they are through and through shit but then again some people like them, im no the one to tell them what to like and what not.

ps. if you aint seen the parabola video youre seriously missing out, its soooo creepy, but its got style