[[Shizo]]

hah hah.. no my idea is complete opposite, and yeah universe was forever and will be forever in case you didnt notice stuff floating infinite distances outside the cluster of stars that you might call "universe".

And human being best good or whatever? No humans are animals, more advanced than the rest of species living on planet Earth.

[ May 31, 2002: Message edited by: [Shizo] ]

[SWANYDSPIN]

Shizo, I agree with all your theory's, I thought of this, if the universe has been there forever, then TIME never began, and if time never began, nothing really exists, and thats why I cant pick up chicks!

[Gangleri]

In comes the physics guy to take up a few micrometers on a hard drive somewhere where this forum is stored.

Since I just responded in a similar thread, I can't help but pointing out that the current flavour of the month in biology is that about 80% of what you become is pre-determined by your genes. Only 20% is influenced of your surroundings. This explains why there is less of a pattern in good backgrounds/bad backgrounds in criminals than they first thought.
The view that your environment meant everything was prevailing back in the 60's and 70's though, so your views are not new, but quite accurately describe what scientist thought until the...let's say 90's, when the pendulum swung.

You have a good point though...
Want an even wackier one?
Well, like I said I'm a physics guy, so here's a weird theory, but totally based on science (albeit old, but quite excepted).
Okay, here goes... Everything that has mass radiates gravity. Gravity affects everything in the universe.

The earth has a certain gravity (or "sends out" a certain amount of gravitons...if they exist, we haven't found any yet, but the calculations... you know) that affects us. That is why we don't fly off into space when we jump. This probably everyone learned in school. Okay, but this affects the sun as well, and Pluto, and everything! But since the sun has much, much higher gravity, it doesn't show that much, and Pluto is such a long way away that the gravitational pull of the earth has watered out, but still, it's there.

Okay now for the interesting part... Every particle (even strings, if you want to go that small) have mass. Which means that (for instance) every molecule affects every other molecule. Now, the gravity effect stuff in a certain way, it pulls it closer to the source that sends it out.

That means, that there is no free will. It's all an illusion!

Since this has been going on since the birth of the universe, things down to the smallest pieces have stirred each other in a certain way, every thought we have has not been chosen (although we feel like it is) but it was actually decided at the very start of the universe.

This leads to another interesting effect, that is that if you where able to gather all data about how everything (and I do mean everything) have moved since the beginning of the universe. You could theoretically calculate what will happen until the end of the universe. Quite cool if this would hold true

//Gangleri

[Coaster]

Gang, I'm curious to know whether or not you've heard of einstein's lambda constant...

The universe to me:
A long time ago there where vast quantities of hydrogen everywhere, maybe in one area it was a little denser, more gravity, more and more gravity in places, eventually stars began to form and blow out leaving heavyer elements here and there, at least one small clump of elements had the right amount of gravity to support a nitrogen based atmosphere, oxygen finds its way in, chemical reactions form converting carbons and hydrogen into nicely shaped hydrocarbons, piles hydrocarbons become really nicely shaped, piles of hydrocarbons fail to accept the fact that they are only piles of hydrocarbons.

We are in the end no different then robots, robots have predetermined minds, so do we, the argument comes in because our minds wire themselves which some robots can actually do to a limited degree.

damn, these things would be fun to discuss in person.. at least I could articulate my ideas a little better.

The universe is very strange, and it would certainly be impossable to understand by constantly being fooled with our eyes.

Run on sentance/grammer error king!
~jeff

gravitons?

[Gangleri]

Yes, I've heard of the cosmological constant Coaster. It's quite an important part of general relativity. (And it feels like I've heard "The biggest mistake" story from every lecturer I had in classical physics. hehe)

A graviton is a messenger particle for the gravitational force.
For more on gravitons, you can look here.
Or for a more technical explination, here. It's about speed... but it has lots of info on gravitons baked in.

Yes, this stuff is indeed fascinating, isn�t it?

//Gangleri

[Coaster]

Even if the universe is predeterminded by the formation of the earliest particles, who eventually form the way the the earliest people's brains where (which would be fixed) which would form the way our brains our wired and because of an event maybe 20,000 years ago involving somebody's cave, I just decided to jerk my head to the right, allowing me to witness an event outside which would in the end effect the upbringing of my children. So everything is predetermined by those earliest hydrogen atoms? So then we could in the end find out exactly whats going to happen in the future?

Isn't that what the chaos theory is all about? (i'm not sure)

I have a problem with that though..
what about the quantum duality, where you can't at the same time know the energy of a photon and its position. Position relating to it being a particle, but then if its a particle how could it have energy... energy which would relate to its frequency... but then its a wave and you can't measure its position exactly.. so theoretically you couldn't have all the information to tell the future like that and theres a lot of photons in the universe so you wouldn't be very close either.

And to tell the future like that you'd also need to know what happened at the begining of the universe, which its argueable actually exists. Thermodynamics is a start...

Seeing as books are my only source of this information and I've never been able to have an actual discussion about this i'm probably fairly wrong. But its fun talking about this anyway.

Although I'm not ruling out that everything you do it just predetermined, infact I quite argee with that, my problem with it is that you wouldn't be able to figure out whats going to happen next, so in the end it is sort of like we choose the future.

I'm weery to exept gravitons, but it seems resonable.

Einstein did yap on for a while about the cosmological constant being his biggest mistake, but it never really was disproven was it?

I really need to get reading about schodneers kittens and that book about chaos i just dug up.

Bah I wish I could communicate my thoughts better *sigh*

[[Shizo]]

Why are you all are calling universe a small cluster of galaxies (only a few billion trillions light years in diameter), and as it was created <here> and will end <here>
No it wount, the one single thing that is forever is universe (universe as in 'all' not as in 'a cluster of matter that's floating in space right <here>')

[Gangleri]

Well...
Everything is determined by the first mass (in this somewhat philosophical theory), but it is also determined by every proceeding mass as well. If I put it this way, the first mass effected the second mass then came the third mass which was effected by both the already existing masses, then it just multiply. I can't use terms like molecules or particles really since that indicate that a particle is the smallest kind of mass.

You touch on quantum physics... Quantum physics doesn't change the basic "Gravity affects everything" part of physics. Or should I say, at least not yet. Obviously, new findings can throw everything on its head so I'm only talking about our current understanding of things. You don't need to know where a certain particle (in quantum physics, the particles are waves and particles at the same time. Since most people are used to viewing things as particles, that is what I call will them) to be effected by it.

It is true that you would need to know its exact behaviour and place to get any useful data to try to guess the future, but I wasn't suggesting you would be able to do this with current methods, just that it would be possible if you knew all the variables.

As for chaos theory... I don't know if you can call this chaos theory. I don't know that much about chaos theory to give any deep insights on that.

Yep, it seems Einstein was right on with his cosmological constant. At according to the string theory people.

It's kind of hard to mix classical physics and quantum physics though. Classical physics usually describe big things, like how an asteroid travels the universe. But when you calculate really tiny things (like particles/waves-whatever) it breaks. Quantum physics describe the micro cosmos. The calculations on small things are much, much more accurate with quantum physics, but as the objects that are being calculated on gets bigger, it breaks down. That is why some people started on the whole string theory business. It brings together classical physics and quantum physics. It's a long way to go, but the work is promising. And it's not as if it is something one would throw together over tea.

//Gangleri

[Gangleri]

Shizo, I don't think anyone is talking a galaxy cluster here, at least not me.

We more or less know (or at least have very strong indication) that there is a beginning of the universe we live in. Obviously none lived when it happened so it can never be proven without a doubt, but we have a pretty good scope on what happened to as soon as 10^-43 of a second after the universe was created. (The famous big bang or whatever you want to have happened)

It is also possible that the universe might do a big reverse, named "the big crunch", in the future, where it crunch back to the size of about a planck lengths or two (it is unbearably tiny) and then spring up again. Sort of like a rubber band stuck in a loop of expanding and contracting.

And, then there's of course the possibility that our universe isn't the only universe out there.

The scales are giant (to understate) and complicated (another understatement).

Personally, I believe that the universe has a limit but it is growing. But it will eventually spring back for the big crunch described earlier. I also think that "the big bang" was only one of many expansions and contractions of our universe. But this is just I of course. It is not a result of scientific research, it's just what I think sound probable.

//Gangleri

P.S. Forgot to add that I define the universe as a physical system that is potentially observable. In other words the space-time we live in, but not limited to a particular space/place within the space-time. D.S.

[ June 01, 2002: Message edited by: Gangleri ]

[Drift Kid Runner]

Shizo, I agree with all your theory's, I thought of this, if the universe has been there forever, then TIME never began, and if time never began, nothing really exists, and thats why I cant pick up chicks!

______________________________________________

I dont think that time exists. Seeing that we dont really live in a length of time, but more of the smallest fraction of time, which is in itself impossible, so we basically live and die instantly. As crazy as that sounds, if you think about it it is true to an extent at least. The past does not exist, and neither does the future. All we have is now, and now is gone. Time in itself is a paradox, and one made by man.


Didnt someone say that the universe will collapse and expand,and we will live our lives over and over and over, for all eternity? Doing the same thing as last time, and the same thing we will do next time? Im not sure on this, but I think I read it somewhere.

Mike

[Gangleri]

Man do I feel better after that chick connection Drift Kid Runner! *LOL* I've always wondered the same thing.

We do live in a time dimension and three space dimensions. The time dimension just has different properties than the space dimensions. Without time, we would, as you say, not exist. And it would be impossible to plot a path in space, 'cos it's constantly moving.

//Gangleri

[Drift Kid Runner]

I see that, but when we see something move through space, we really have no proof as we only see it through multiple instances. Even if you video taped something moving through space, it would still be seen through multiple instances. That is what questions my belief in time, and what I stated earlier.

Mike

[Coaster]

Shizo, I should be more clear.. when I refer to universe I usualy meen all the crap in it.

Time, light, or matter are all effected by gravity though. So assume there was no source of gravity in the universe.. there could be no time. And therefor I wouldn't be standing here because everything (nothing) would have happened at once. so there has to be something around forever therefor ruling out anysort of creation (in your face god!).

And if we find evidence of a big bang that means for sure that it had to have been from an earlier 'universe' and therefor we'll also suffer the same fate. Huh, everything you do is worthless..

So does the universe expand so much to rule out the lambda constant and then be allowed to collapse or what?

I need to read up on my string theory now...

[Coaster]

[Another crackpot theory]
Or, the quantum particles that seem to randomly appear (along with an 'anti' counterpart) from nothing like in the experiment with the two very close metal sheets that would actually pull towards eachother as particles randomly appeared between them. Perhaps at one point a buncha hydrogen (a BIG buncha) just popped into existance, gathered up, and explodeded in the big bang, where it formed more elements and will just keep expanding.

But since motion requires energy, and there was only a fixed amount of hydrogen in the begining does that mean the universe will just thin out into nothing?

Unless more particles pop into existance and loose their 'anti' counterpart through a black hole then I guess so...

Either way we're screwed and it doesn't matter if I do my homework...

[Rat]

quote:

---

Originally posted by [Shizo]:

And human being best good or whatever? No humans are animals, more advanced than the rest of species living on planet Earth.

---

I said that in another thread, just in different words.

Interesting read...now if only someone would arrange this in book form...it'd be much easier to read.

(I won't comment...math and science are my weak points.)

[[Shizo]]

The best solution to such thoughts is not to exist at all, i mean there is no point of finding out. There is no way to learn, and there is nothing to learn about universe as a whole! Nothing is what we know about universe comparing to infinity of knowledge and mass that it contains.
Contains is a bad word.. since containing means to hold, the universe is rather a container without boundaries, if you know what i mean.

[travis travis]

quote:

---

Originally posted by [Shizo]:
The best solution to such thoughts is not to exist at all

---

like to see you suceed at that

[Coaster]

I really see why lots of people choose/make up religions.

I can't stand not understanding stuff, its just... just... unbearable. And the problem is exactly that the brain wires itself up to understand its surroundings, our eyes decive us more then anything, because light is very, very tricky.

We only think in the 3rd dimension plus time and fail to comprehend other... uh... comprehendable stuff... (like what if we could easily see the red shift with our eyes but still make out colours (now there would be a way to tell distance)). So is understanding presicly the way the universe acts unobtainable? I'd like someone to prove me wrong, and then write a book about it.

anyways..
I finally got around to reading the first post and what exactly does this have to do with it?

I can relate to a lot of what shizo says, as well as gang.

damn, I wish there was some magical way to talk to someone directly in person.

~jeff

we should novalize this...

[Levijuice]

Shizo : funy thing is that i had the same idea in my 18teens , and I was in deep depresion becouse of that, becoase not only human are good or bad but your future and everything is determined. Bot after some years of thinking I realized that its doesnt matter, you dont know what your future will be so you still got to work on your " better tomorows". And when you know that you are what your DNA and suroundings is, you can use this fact for achieving your goals, so after all it isnt as bad as it looks

[Gangleri]

Uhm, I'll just fix on weather or not life is worth living because of the fact that everything is predetermined.

Like Levijuice said, it doesn't matter to us if it is, since we live on a way, way too short of a timescale to feel or do anything useful of the predictability.

This can change of course, depending on how much our understanding progress, but we are probably talking about many eons in the future until we will be able to construct computers that can deal with the incredibly large numbers. We also have to be able to understand literary everything about everything. Personally I find it unlikely that the human species will survive for several eons though. It is more than likely that a large asteroid will kill us off. Maybe our moon will get crushed which will have almost even more devastating effects on this planet. And then there's the possibility of earth actually colliding with another planet... It's not an eminent danger, but I am talking about a long time in the future here. And finally, we might just disintegrate back to Stone Age kind of living for reasons unknown. It has happened before. (Sumerians, Egyptians and possibly Atlantis) It�s just too many things that can go wrong� And you know Murphy�s Law, if something can go wrong, it will.

//Gangleri

[Coaster]

Isn't there that star neerby thats going too 'splode is a few (hundred) years?

*which there is evidence of happening in the past, scientists have found large amounts of dead sea life and heavy metals buried deep down in the ocean from another star much further away*

Then again the star could have nova'ed already RELATIVE to earth time.

Either way.. thats what I kinda meant in an earlyer post, everything is predeterminded.. but since its impossible to use the previous information to find out the future we are still technically in control.

I think we should all read about chaos...

~jeff

[Coaster]

nothings faster then light, so if the star blew up and its oh say 2 hundred light years away from us... and it blew up right now relative to earth time I wouldn't give a damn because the effect wouldn't.. effect.. us for 200 years... where we'll be barbequed by the high energy photons, then a few hundred years later be pelted with the debris (like how you see the flash of lightning before the sound.

However theres no way to tell that it blew up 200 years ago so there would be no warning and it would be like it happened instantly.

The sun could have blown up 7 minutes ago, it being 8 light minutes away from us...
Theres no way to tell so in one minute you couldn't say it blew up 8 minutes ago, because it would have just blown up.. solution:
live in constant fear.

BOOM

[Drift Kid Runner]

Yeah , I know that nothing can accelerate to the speed of light, but it would be a screwy concept. It would be heading towards us while we couldnt see it. In a totally incorrect scale, if you were to put your hand out full length keeping it there, as if it were that star, but it took two hundred years for the light to get to us. Your hand explodes, but you wont know it for another two hundred years, but during those 200 years before you know that the star exploded, the debris is moving. What would you notice of the debris? Thats what Im not too sure of. I have an idea, but it would take a while to type. If anyone knows let me!

Mike

[[Shizo]]

Hehe heh dammit, i didnt say everythign is pre-determined, somebody else said that but it doesnt matter. One thing for a human life i know for sure is "nothing really matters". because even if you discover a new musical genre, if you build the biggest company ever, make most famous paintings ever, or if you just live as a subway bum - it all doesnt matter

Cool eh? i thought so

[[666]Flat]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Coaster:
The sun could have blown up 7 minutes ago, it being 8 light minutes away from us...
Theres no way to tell so in one minute you couldn't say it blew up 8 minutes ago, because it would have just blown up.. solution:
live in constant fear.

BOOM

---

Tick tock, motherfucker.

[[666]Flat]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Drift Kid Runner:
Shizo, I agree with all your theory's, I thought of this, if the universe has been there forever, then TIME never began, and if time never began, nothing really exists, and thats why I cant pick up chicks!

---

We're getting a big step closer to the true meaning of VIRTUAl SEX.

[Coaster]

You wouldn't know about the debris, it would come later then 200 years. And thats after you've met your fate with the worlds largest solar oven. Light behaves a lot like matter, so just think of it the same way.

If matter accelerated to the speed of light, it would create so much gravity, that for it time would stop.

[Drift Kid Runner]

I dont think that anyone sees what I am explaining from my point of view. Its my fault. Its hard to get accross over the internet

Mike

[Drift Kid Runner]

If that star already exploded, and we are just seeing it from not being blow'd up, yeesh, hard to think about, by the time we see it explode, wouldnt the peices of the star and shit already be heading towards us? But then it would be traveling basically faster than ligt AAAGGGH. COnfusing.

us. <-Light---(planet)

what we see as the planet regular right now, would be past, but the atomic winds and shit like that would already be hurtling towards us and shit. yikes. me and my crazy talk. It should be right though.

Mike