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Topic : "We're all victims of circumstance" |
eyewoo
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 Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:28 pm |
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Of course it's not pointless...  |
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gLitterbug
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| Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:27 pm |
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The first step to where? Tzan, no offense, but you sound like someone who wants to convert people to his belief and thinks it is the only valid one. While I don't believe in Heaven and Hell like a Christian should, I doubt that everyone of those people lives for the afterlife he believes in either. Also you shouldn't forget that what works for you might not work for everyone else. Thinking that is just ignorant. Other people might indeed lose the sense of living if their belief in god or whatever is taken. Only because you and Impaler and even me would still be happy no matter if we are all just goo or whatever, doesn't mean that it's that easy for everyone.
Objectively it doesn't change much if you believe that there is more to us than biological stuff going on in our brains or if you call it our soul and imagine it as ghostly thing flowing through our bodies. As you noted it is about living your life, but to me that shouldn't mean ridiculing others for choosing their belief which helps them enjoy life and being a good person. Right, being a good person and enjoying life has nothing to do with following science or whatever other god you pray to. If you murder your parents in their sleep because your evil god told you or the undulations of your brain hardly matters in the end.
Maybe you didn't mean to include god and belief in this, but it sure sounded very patronizing and not like a talk about brains only. For me it doesn't matter if you are right or not, if its all biological brainfunctions. Personally I like to call it soul, because that is a simple word which is easy to understand and I don't have to talk an hour about memes or give biology lessons first. But I will enjoy this life no matter what science reveals or if a voice of god suddenly calls out of heaven.
I am just disappointed to see someone who seems to be scientifically interested rather than a follower of religion sound equally blind as some fanatic who accepts nothing but their own god. Hopefully this all didn't sound too harsh as I really don't mean to attack you and I would like to hear if I maybe misunderstood the tone of your posts. |
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Nilwort
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| Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:41 pm |
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| Tzan wrote: |
| We absolutely need to have an explanation for everything its part of us. Its also the reason why this thread started. We want to understand even the things that are hard to understand. |
From a rational standpoint, yes, I think we do too, but this doesn't describe human life 100%. I have a profound respect for all the scientists, philosophers, and mathematicians who expand our understanding of the world, but I think with the incredible advances they bring, we can learn to value them too much.
| Tzan wrote: |
| We want to really believe that humans are more special than other animals. We want to think that those items like hope and wonder exist in some way beyond our self, because they seem so special that no biological machine could contain them. And yet it does, in very complex ways that are certainly hard to understand, but must be. Otherwise we wouldn�t even be able to express those abstract concepts. |
Do we know of any other creature that uses complex tools, creates art, and has written language? Until we do, I'd have to say that humans are very special.
If I was going to clarify my statement, I'd say that science can describe our lives and that our thoughts are probably the product of complex chemical reactions. My point, given this information, is why stop there? Until we understand precisely how our consciousness is produced from these chemical/electrical reactions and what our consciousness is, the origins of our mind and daily experiences will remain, and may always be, a mystery.
| Impaler wrote: |
I understand where you're coming from, nilwort. I felt the same anxiety when I stopped believing in god. It felt like this cruel machine of science was snuffing out my soul, my very essence of being. It's an intensely lonely thought to think that heaven and hell don't exist. that when you die, you simply cease to be.
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I don't believe in a god in the traditional sense either. I do sincerely believe that science and spirituality can exist side by side because there is a lot we don't know about the universe and there is a lot of space to breathe if we are flexible enough. Looking at our past and at our ability to bring destruction to ourselves, I think it is our duty to consider all interpretations of reality as being valid. All things spiritual and scientific. It is the most intelligent thing to do, considering how science (or nature) can open up Pandora's Box at any place and any time and knowing as a whole we tend to make irrational decisions. Maintaining our humanity and respecting the humanity of others is the only way we will survive. I believe free will plays a large part in this (the story 1984 is a good example), so I have some strong opinions about it. 
| Impaler wrote: |
| What's the point of free will? To end up squarely in the rat race? To spend 35 years of your life in middle management? Free will has this quirky habit of isolating you from the rest of the world. Sure, your decisions affect other people, but ultimately the burden of being falls squarely on you. |
This is where I agree with you Impaler. We are in control of our lives and they are a product of our decisions. If someone is in middle management for 35 years, it should be because they decided to stay there. We should assume that this person has the power (even if genetics or some other preconditioning says otherwise) to do whatever they want as validation of their humanity. |
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balistic
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| Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:46 pm |
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eyewoo: the wonderful thing about a pointless universe is that you're free to develop your own reason for living
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Domino Harvey
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| Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 8:45 am |
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I agree annisahmad. A lot of people can't understand that circumstance has completely determined my life for the past few years, and the course my life's taken hasn't been a positive one. Any choice or action of mine has been futile. Sometimes, with some hands in life, there really is nothing you can do. I'm not whining, though believe me I could post a many E/N threads. I'm just saying people need to understand that you aren't always the God of your own destiny that they seem to believe.
As for the purpose of existence, I'm not content if there's no afterlife. As much as my life has been bad so far, and most of it completely out of my control, there's no way I can be happy if this is all there is. I'm not really sure what I believe right now, but I sure do hope there's an afterlife or reincarnation or maybe even transposure to another timeline. I don't care, I just refuse to rot in a hole in the ground, forgotten. (I'm not going to though, I'm going to be buried above ground, baby  )
But seriously, I mean I'm not attacking anyone's beliefs, I'm just not content with this as it is. There either has to be a hell of a lot more to life for me to be content or an afterlife for me to be happy. Preferably both, because I can't be content with this...
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Tzan
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| Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:10 am |
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Sounded like a good attack to me
Uhmm.... yeah you read way too much into what I wrote heh
| gLitterbug wrote: |
| The first step to where? Tzan, no offense, but you sound like someone who wants to convert people to his belief and thinks it is the only valid one. |
The first step to understanding who we really are. That we are biological and thats it.
I dont really care what other people believe and I know that nothing I say will ever sway them. Yes I think my version is the only valid one, at this point in time. If some fact came forth tomorrow I would have to change. And I can change. Most people cant.
In order to present an opinion I have to present it, you dont have to agree with it but please dont make me out to be some kind of fanatical nut case.
| Quote: |
While I don't believe in Heaven and Hell like a Christian should, I doubt that everyone of those people lives for the afterlife he believes in either. Also you shouldn't forget that what works for you might not work for everyone else. Thinking that is just ignorant. Other people might indeed lose the sense of living if their belief in god or whatever is taken. Only because you and Impaler and even me would still be happy no matter if we are all just goo or whatever, doesn't mean that it's that easy for everyone.
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"lose there sense of living if god was taken away"
I doubt that very much, you dont give people enough credit here.
| Quote: |
Objectively it doesn't change much if you believe that there is more to us than biological stuff going on in our brains or if you call it our soul and imagine it as ghostly thing flowing through our bodies. As you noted it is about living your life, but to me that shouldn't mean ridiculing others for choosing their belief which helps them enjoy life and being a good person.
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Point out the sentence where I said belief in god is stupid. I didnt ridicule anyone. I intentionally didnt mention the G word so I wouldnt get caught up in a conversation just like this Oops but here we are anyway. 
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Right, being a good person and enjoying life has nothing to do with following science or whatever other god you pray to. If you murder your parents in their sleep because your evil god told you or the undulations of your brain hardly matters in the end.
Maybe you didn't mean to include god and belief in this, but it sure sounded very patronizing and not like a talk about brains only.
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Well thats how it was written, no god just brains.
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For me it doesn't matter if you are right or not, if its all biological brainfunctions. Personally I like to call it soul, because that is a simple word which is easy to understand and I don't have to talk an hour about memes or give biology lessons first. But I will enjoy this life no matter what science reveals or if a voice of god suddenly calls out of heaven.
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The Soul word is very complex, not simple and will be easily misunderstood unless you give an explaination with it.
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I am just disappointed to see someone who seems to be scientifically interested rather than a follower of religion sound equally blind as some fanatic who accepts nothing but their own god. Hopefully this all didn't sound too harsh as I really don't mean to attack you and I would like to hear if I maybe misunderstood the tone of your posts. |
Sorry to disappoint you again, but I'm not a fanatic.
My Uncle believes in God very much. I think he is one of the best people I have ever met. Not because he goes to church every day of the week (he does) but because he and his wife volunteer their time in the community. My Uncle installs those "I've fallen and cant get up" machines in old peoples houses and drives people to medical appointments. My aunt does their hair.
I havent even discussed this with him, no reason really. He has never tried to convert me either.
I'm more open minded than you imagine. If I'm wrong great! I'll get to live forever, awsome! But you have to realise that if someone tells you what they think they arent going to write the word "maybe" after every sentence |
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Tzan
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| Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:34 am |
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| Nilwort wrote: |
| Tzan wrote: |
| We want to really believe that humans are more special than other animals. We want to think that those items like hope and wonder exist in some way beyond our self, because they seem so special that no biological machine could contain them. And yet it does, in very complex ways that are certainly hard to understand, but must be. Otherwise we wouldn�t even be able to express those abstract concepts. |
Do we know of any other creature that uses complex tools, creates art, and has written language? Until we do, I'd have to say that humans are very special.
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Well we have certainly accomplished a lot. Mostly because of our big brains . But I guess my point is that we are very much like the animals in that we live and die just like them. Not special in a sense that we deserve more out of life.
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If I was going to clarify my statement, I'd say that science can describe our lives and that our thoughts are probably the product of complex chemical reactions. My point, given this information, is why stop there? Until we understand precisely how our consciousness is produced from these chemical/electrical reactions and what our consciousness is, the origins of our mind and daily experiences will remain, and may always be, a mystery.
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Until the exact answer is known the only thing we can attribute these things to is our brain. Certainly there are still many unanswered questions and I have no problem with that. Not knowing something doesnt bother me. But I dont go off inventing other things and say thats the answer (not saying you did, I'm reffering to others, others not on this forum, or possibly even in this country, there see, my disclaimer has now covered me... maybe). |
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gLitterbug
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| Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:56 am |
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Nah I know they won't write maybe, but there's people who don't write it and people who wouldn't even consider ever writing it. Reading through your posts I couldn't really tell that and as I said sometime before on sijun I like to reply with my impressions so things can get cleared up rather than just me walking away thinking you're a fanatic
I didn't mean that you are a fanatic btw, just that it sounded like you meant everyone who doesn't share the scientific view to be walking a wrong path and they need to take the first step. I guess that formulation threw me off the most, it reminds me too much of something one would say before the word salvation comes up. Obviously salvation is out of the question when we talk about biology and brains only, but in that case I thought you might mean "take your first step out of idiocy".
To the point that I don't give people enough credit, yeah I usually think 80% or a similarly high number of humanity is rather simple and not making much use of their free will at all. What I didn't think about here is the biological urge to survive we have in us I guess, so they would probably just come up with a new reason instead of being without one. My bad there.
Sorry again for the fanatic thing, I shouldn't have written that, but your wording made me think you pretty much look down on every person that refuses to share the sober view on our existence that science gives us. Combined with Impaler throwing in how liberating not believing in God is kind of worked me up.
I think I just care a bit much for the regulars on sijun here and such discussions as these often times make me wonder if a certain person is someone I like or rather someone I stay away from. I know with Impaler that whatever he says here that I might not like I can talk it out over aim with him and we'll probably get away with opinions which aren't far apart at all. Most of the time we just crash on our wording and expression. Since I don't know every sijun regular that well and have them all on my buddy list to talk it out, I have to admit often times makes me seem a bit more agressive and hot headed than I actually am. But in the end this helps me to see if I can take a person serious in the future and not call him a fanatic that fast . |
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Tzan
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| Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:21 pm |
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heh, ok
| gLitterbug wrote: |
I didn't mean that you are a fanatic btw, just that it sounded like you meant everyone who doesn't share the scientific view to be walking a wrong path and they need to take the first step. I guess that formulation threw me off the most, it reminds me too much of something one would say before the word salvation comes up. Obviously salvation is out of the question when we talk about biology and brains only, but in that case I thought you might mean "take your first step out of idiocy".
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I suppose its a fine point. I do think people who are religious are on a wrong path. I have to, in order to think my way is right, you cant have both. But its not my job to point it out to all of them.
But thats my opinion, I may be wrong (disclaimer). And one day if I'm proved wrong, fantastic! like I said before. I'm very easy going on which way it turns out in the end. But I do have a very definite opinion now given the current info and why not? After all, I have to live my life that way
| Quote: |
To the point that I don't give people enough credit, yeah I usually think 80% or a similarly high number of humanity is rather simple and not making much use of their free will at all.
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I certainly agree
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Sorry again for the fanatic thing, I shouldn't have written that, but your wording made me think you pretty much look down on every person that refuses to share the sober view on our existence that science gives us. Combined with Impaler throwing in how liberating not believing in God is kind of worked me up.
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Yeah I dont look down on them. They have made their choice and I have made mine. Although there is certainly a lot of looking down on people from both sides.
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I think I just care a bit much for the regulars on sijun here and such discussions as these often times make me wonder if a certain person is someone I like or rather someone I stay away from. I know with Impaler that whatever he says here that I might not like I can talk it out over aim with him and we'll probably get away with opinions which aren't far apart at all. Most of the time we just crash on our wording and expression. Since I don't know every sijun regular that well and have them all on my buddy list to talk it out, I have to admit often times makes me seem a bit more agressive and hot headed than I actually am. But in the end this helps me to see if I can take a person serious in the future and not call him a fanatic that fast . |
Its all good.... maybe
Text is really a horrible form to communicate in and I am not its master
Hmm... maybe I should make that my sig line. |
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Nilwort
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| Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:10 pm |
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| Domino Harvey wrote: |
| There either has to be a hell of a lot more to life for me to be content or an afterlife for me to be happy. Preferably both, because I can't be content with this... |
I hear you Domino Harvey, sometimes life can be very disappointing, but you will always have some amount of control over your approach to the situation you are in (unless you are in a coma or something  ). The mindset you take on determines how you will deal with it. Which is something you can choose, no matter how much the odds seem to be against you.
A guy nammed Viktor Frankel talks about finding meaning in life as the most important thing we can do (in contrast to people like Freud who say that sex is at the bottom of everything). In one of his books he describes a man who breaks his back and is paralyzed in an accident. The guy tells Viktor: "I broke my back, but my back didn�t break me." This is a really wise thing he said. The paralyzed guy knew that he might not have been able to prevent his current situation, but as long as he was conscious, he knew his world was what he made of it.
| Tzan wrote: |
| Until the exact answer is known the only thing we can attribute these things to is our brain. |
Are you 100% sure of this? One of the first things we learn about the scientific method is that nothing is certain. Science is all about making educated guesses and connecting them to observed phenomena through deductive and inductive reasoning. Perhaps everything science tells us is true of our experience, but is it true in every case? Even Einstein�s theory of relativity is only a theory that is based on reasoning and observation. Perhaps future developments in the field will present new problems that challenge all that we currently take as being scientific truth (there is no such thing, only observations of tendency).
Turning our back on any idea limits our ability to understand other ideas. All I'm saying is that we should keep our minds open to any possibility. That's all...
If I'm getting too intellectual about this, someone can throw something at me (preferably something soft and fuzzy). |
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lysander
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:05 am |
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mmm quantum physics , saw a documentry on this years ago, very interesting. Consciousness itself, self awareness that is, cannot be explained at the moment by neurologists through the chemical reactions in our brain alone, its being theorized that the process takes place on the quantum level. Its also possible that due to quantum entanglement, this information is not lost and remains intact after death.
I'm not saying its right, its just a theory, but it shows that we may actually scientifically prove the existence of god or an 'afterlife' some time in the future. I'm sure in the distant future death itself may be a thing of the past.
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Tzan
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:52 am |
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| Nilwort wrote: |
| Tzan wrote: |
| Until the exact answer is known the only thing we can attribute these things to is our brain. |
Are you 100% sure of this? One of the first things we learn about the scientific method is that nothing is certain. Science is all about making educated guesses and connecting them to observed phenomena through deductive and inductive reasoning. Perhaps everything science tells us is true of our experience, but is it true in every case? Even Einstein�s theory of relativity is only a theory that is based on reasoning and observation. Perhaps future developments in the field will present new problems that challenge all that we currently take as being scientific truth (there is no such thing, only observations of tendency).
Turning our back on any idea limits our ability to understand other ideas. All I'm saying is that we should keep our minds open to any possibility. That's all...
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I thought I was being vague enough when I said "Until the exact answer is known" meaning we dont dont know yet. So we agree.
Then I said since the only thing we are certain about is the existance of our brain, then we can attribute things to that until we know more. Seems sensible enough. I'm not totally excluding everything, just stating that right now we have only one proven source of thought. I just dont see the need to invent more. If facts change in the future, great. |
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DJorgensen
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:39 pm |
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Hmmm... interesting.
| dictionary.com wrote: |
free will
n.
1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will. |
It would my belief that free will does exist, however limited due to circumstance and genetic memory. In essence we were born of our parents genes, data that has been passed on for eons back to the simplist mitochondria and bacterium. As for the existence of such memory, I feel that the only scientific possibility would be to use the string theory - that we exist in either 10th, 11th or 26th dimensional hyperspace. That perhaps one of those alternate dimensions allows for a sort of residual energy, something of a spiritual energy. I dont know if anyone here is familiar with string theory however. I come from a university physics / astrophysics background.... I quit university though before I got far into it, just didnt enjoy it.
And yes, it is rather absurd, romantic and idealistic. Actually I really like string theory for the sake that it reminds me of the possibility that the universe has a relation to music (being wavelike). To say that I was never influenced by Tolkien or Herbert would be a complete lie, but again I am an idealist, and an optimist.
People need something to believe in. It gives us hope in an otherwise bleak world
As far as free will, its ultimately a matter of perspective.
Is the cup half full, or is it half empty.
Choosing to do something or even not to do something is really a choice. Whether you were free to choose it or compelled to should not matter.
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Domino Harvey
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:01 am |
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| Nilwort wrote: |
| Domino Harvey wrote: |
| There either has to be a hell of a lot more to life for me to be content or an afterlife for me to be happy. Preferably both, because I can't be content with this... |
I hear you Domino Harvey, sometimes life can be very disappointing, but you will always have some amount of control over your approach to the situation you are in (unless you are in a coma or something ). The mindset you take on determines how you will deal with it. Which is something you can choose, no matter how much the odds seem to be against you.
A guy nammed Viktor Frankel talks about finding meaning in life as the most important thing we can do (in contrast to people like Freud who say that sex is at the bottom of everything). In one of his books he describes a man who breaks his back and is paralyzed in an accident. The guy tells Viktor: "I broke my back, but my back didn�t break me." This is a really wise thing he said. The paralyzed guy knew that he might not have been able to prevent his current situation, but as long as he was conscious, he knew his world was what he made of it. |
This is true, to an extent; however smiling at problems will not make them go away. In fact, I find that attitude and that type of lying to yourself quite rediculous. There's optimism, and then there's lying to yourself. And telling yourself that everything is good when it isn't isn't healthy. I am optimistic; but I'm very much a realist.
There's a lot of the "turn that smile upside down" mentality that gets thrown around when a lot of the time, it doesn't matter just like anything else that the person has tried to do. Like I, and annisahmad have said, sometimes you are dealt a bad hand, and you cannot win, no matter what you do.
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gLitterbug
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:40 am |
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You really made me curious as to how bad of a hand you got dealt Domino. What I'd consider really bad hands are stuff like being blind, paralyzed or having any other bodily defect that really cuts into your freedom. Mental damages received like when getting raped by your own dad or stuff like that surely makes for a bad start too. Or getting forced into things by your parents our society in an ugly way.
In the end it is always a matter on how you look at things and getting dealt a bad hand is very subjective and depends heavily on the persons view. That is were your realistic optimism comes in. I would really like to know what your definition of realistic is, as for some people a realistic attitude excludes everything that is improbable already. |
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Capt. Fred
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:52 am |
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Impaler:
Without free will, how do the memes and memeplexes change and develop / 'evolve'?
Without free will, acting however weekly, the memeplex as you put it would have to remain stagnant would it not? |
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eyewoo
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:08 am |
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exactly...
| eyewoo wrote: |
If we only used reasoning based upon previous experience then the great discoveries would not have happened. The great art would not exist.
Most of us are greater than the sum of our experience. That is how we move ahead and succeed in life. Certainly experience is a big part of each person's makeup and motivation... but as a teacher, guide and point of departure, not as a dictator.
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uh-oh... I'm quoting myself
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Drunken Monkey
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:25 am |
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| Quote: |
| and you cannot win, no matter what you do. |
and as long as you have that paralizing throught running your mind, you definetly cant...
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Max
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:39 am |
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I haven't had time to read all the previous stuff so excuse me if I echo someone. I have a little theory about free will.
Eighter the world is predeterminated or pure coincidence. Logically there can't be something between those extremes. In both cases we can't be free because if everything is predeterminated we can't decide anything and if everything happens by chance we don't have control over our life eighter since we are guided by chaos.
Conclusion: there is no free will...
Anyway, I believe I have control over my life. If not, I don't care eighter. As long as I think I do control my life I am happy 
It's really just a question of your definition of beeing free. For example: I can't live forever. That limits my existence. I am not free because of that. I am also not free to fly away like a bird...see what I mean. |
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oDD
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 12:37 pm |
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sorry for my english and spelling.
| Quote: |
| ...it shows that we may actually scientifically prove the existence of god or an 'afterlife' some time in the future. |
Are you trying to go to hell or something ? If there is a proof for god there is no room for faith! and religion becomes science.
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| Can't imagine that it is all that pointless... |
I hear this argument all the time that without god/afterlife - life is pointless and dull and ugly. And i don't like it. I will try to describe how i look at this subject. Imagine a sheet of paper with text written on it. There is an infinity number of possibilities what is written there. It could be a love letter, a military order to kill a million people, a message that you won million dollars or a messege that someone kidnaped your child. Now think back to the most wonderfull thing you ever read, the thing that moved you. I say that what makes the thing you read wonderfull is simply what was written there, althou it is "only" paper and ink it still is moving and meaningfull (what makes life great and meaningfull is life itself), you on the other hand say that without some "magic powers" like a pink glowing ribbon on that paper or whatever this text you read is nothing special because without it we are just left with paper and ink. (life without after life , god etc. is misreable, we must be more than carbon and water). The sheet of paper is your life, what will be written there ? I hope you can see my point.
to get back to a topic, i was listening to a song and i liked one lyric that i think fits to alot of us, and it goes something like this:
"whenever something bad happens to you you blame everybody else, whenever you achieve something it's all because of you"
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Domino Harvey
junior member
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Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 37
Location: Winnebago in the Nevada desert
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:53 pm |
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| gLitterbug wrote: |
You really made me curious as to how bad of a hand you got dealt Domino. What I'd consider really bad hands are stuff like being blind, paralyzed or having any other bodily defect that really cuts into your freedom. Mental damages received like when getting raped by your own dad or stuff like that surely makes for a bad start too. Or getting forced into things by your parents our society in an ugly way.
In the end it is always a matter on how you look at things and getting dealt a bad hand is very subjective and depends heavily on the persons view. That is were your realistic optimism comes in. I would really like to know what your definition of realistic is, as for some people a realistic attitude excludes everything that is improbable already. |
My definition of realism? Being in touch with what I believe reality to be and not getting your hopes up for crazy things. The optimism? Knowing how vast the universe is and the incredible amounts of possibilities in any situation, including those extravagant things to happen. That said, they don't happen often and maybe that's what makes them beautiful. I'm not asking for miracles in my life. I'm just asking whatever spirit that's out there, if there is one, for a little help. I'm not hearing much response and I feel like I'm talking to a wall unfortunately.
My hand is a combination of personal, mental, situational, societal, and physical problems right now and I'd rather not go into detail. It's one that I'm quite sure there is nothing that can change it (as the past is already done). As for the person who said this is a 'crippling attitude' you are free to think that, however you are wrong. I have every intent to succeed in what I can, but you are precisely who I am referring to in saying that people condemn what they do not understand. For your sake, I hope it is something you never do have to understand.
And as for the above poster, I am not content with just leaving behind a good story. I want a magical pink ribbon and a slice of pie with it - and I'm damn proud to say it. Life, for me, has been quite ugly and I have not lived a good one. I'll not sit content with rotting away in the ground; I, for lack of a better word, demand, some sort of reimbursement.
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Nilwort
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Joined: 26 Jan 2002
Posts: 319
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| Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:11 pm |
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| Domino Harvey wrote: |
| I am not content with just leaving behind a good story. I want a magical pink ribbon and a slice of pie with it - and I'm damn proud to say it. |
At the risk of sounding insensitive/sarcastic and overusing the ability to post images on the forum, I've decided to bake up something nice for someone who sounds a little down on their luck!
I hope you like cherry! 
With best regards,
Nilwort |
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Domino Harvey
junior member
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Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 37
Location: Winnebago in the Nevada desert
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:18 am |
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| Nilwort wrote: |
| Domino Harvey wrote: |
| I am not content with just leaving behind a good story. I want a magical pink ribbon and a slice of pie with it - and I'm damn proud to say it. |
At the risk of sounding insensitive/sarcastic and overusing the ability to post images on the forum, I've decided to bake up something nice for someone who sounds a little down on their luck!
I hope you like cherry!
With best regards,
Nilwort |
Haha, thank you.
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Drunken Monkey
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Joined: 08 Feb 2000
Posts: 1016
Location: mothership
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:48 am |
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i read "we are all victims of circumcision"... and thought this was some new thread i missed.
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Nilwort
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| Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:27 am |
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Don't be forcing me to make you a pie Drunken Monkey.
Because I so will... |
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SAM
junior member
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 12
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:58 am |
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I'm sorry if this was said before, I only read the OP.
Circumstances shape us in a way, I can buy that, but it's also possible to shape your own circumstances. For example: If I want to meet a girl I can go to a singles bar or somewhere else were there are single women. Thus, I create the situation where meeting someone is a lot more probable than if I was lurking around at home. What I mean to say is that the circumstances that shapes us doesn't all have to be external, we can create our own circumstances. Thinking about it otherwise is just, depressing.
hmmm... reading the rest of the replys makes me think my post is off topic for some reason. Don't be mad at me, I'm new  |
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Sumaleth
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Joined: 30 Oct 1999
Posts: 2898
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:29 am |
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SAM, your example there operates at level above what annisahmad is talking about.
The real question is: how is the decision to go to the bar made?
And that is an impossible question to answer right now.
--
Free will is a fascinating subject. I've participated in a couple of lengthy discussions on the topic, and never did come to discover any underlying truth. Damn.
It's worth noting that our experience of life is identical with or without genuine free will. Everything that has every happened as the result of a thought could have happened as the result of human free will or as the result of a deterministic process that gives the impression of free will.
Which probably means that we don't have genuine free will.
At a high level, I like to define free will as the ability to make a decision that goes against instinct. Which I suppose is the ability to recognize and instrinctual decision and then deliberately choose the opposite.
But at a deeper level, in the actions of neurons, what is free will? At the neuron level, decisions are made by an impossible complex weighting of competing goals, with the full weight of an individual's life experience behind it.
Do I go to the bar?
It means having a shower, and I'll miss the season premier of Scrubs. But I could meet the perfect girl. But I never meet the perfect girl, or if I do she rejects me. But what if this is the time. And that girl might be there that I like. Can I even afford it?
There'd be a million thoughts like that, most subconsciously, all weighing in, dancing with a lifetime of experience playing against your genetic starting equipment.
And then a decision is made.
Was the decision made by free will, or was it the inevitable result of a deterministic process? If you then decide to do the opposite of what you originally decided, is that free will or just another step in the deterministic process?
No way to know. Could be either explanation.
The free will offering has the difficulty of explaining just what free will is and how it emerged out of a cause-and-effect brain.
The deterministic offering has the difficulty of explaining self awareness, and that ability to recognize when a decision was instinctual.
Fun.
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Yarik
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Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 231
Location: Russian/Ukrainian American in California
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:26 am |
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Here is my hit on free will.
Please follow this experiment.
Take your right hand. And place it on your hand.
Now, put your hand back where it was previously.
Now, touch an object that is white or light in color.
Tell me this now, other than what I instructed you to do, who moved your hand? When you saw your hand move, did you feel like it was an act of someone else? Or did you feel your own body making that decision?
Now, here is another experiment.
A guy just says that a local company is hiring. You are sitting at your computer. Do you decide to continue sitting in your seat? Or do you get up and go apply?
Tell me this now, who made that decision? Did you feel making the decision that you will sit in the chair versus going and applying at the company? Or vice versa?
The answer is YES. Of course you felt that YOU made that decision. Nothing else did it for you. You felt no power over you. Your choice was purely yours. If you say "Destiny doesn't permit me to apply for that job" and you continue sitting in your chair, than you are fullfiling your destiny.
Every time you do something that you feel is your own movement, thought, idea. Every time that you go to the store. Every time you walk to the bathroom. You feel that it is your own body making those choice. No entity is making these choices for you. No supernatural force is forcing you to do this.
Do you know the difference between animals and humans? Humans know that the hand that is typing this message is MY hand. Humans know, that when they pick up a cup of coffee, it is THEIR own body that is doing this. Humans know, that when they say something, it is their own thoughts coming to words.
Somehow, we KNOW our body is ours. And yet, people feel the need to blame God for being poor "I was meant to be poor. It is my destiny. I can't get out of this rut because the forces are against me."
Listen you pitifull fool. No magical forces are holding you back, or making you do something that you don't want to do. If you commit a crime, you do this soley because your movements produced a death blow to your opponent. You start your car, you know that your hand is starting the car and no one else.
Everything you do, is based on you. Not a super natural force. Not some wheel of fortune. And certainly not by circumstance.
Your right, most people do follow circumstance. But it is only because that is 1) The easiest thing to do.
2) They don't know better.
I've seen lots of poor people transform their lives, simply by doing someting about it. There is a difference between successfull people and uncessful people.
There are formulas that work. That will let you succeeed. The wealthy, acquire wealth by using these formulas, either by circumstance (accidental. A set of sequences that just happens to fall into place) or they use the formulas of success consciously.
Those that fail and are poor, never become successfull unless they utalize the given strategies and formulas. NO MATTER HOW HARD THEY TRY.
I've seen every case proven and disproven. |
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Yarik
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Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 231
Location: Russian/Ukrainian American in California
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:37 am |
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If you don't follow this guide, you are the only person to blame.
I'm going to unload as much information on you as possible. Some free some cost money, but all work to an extent of making you succesfull.
IF YOU DON'T FOLLOW THIS GUIDE, YOU HAVE NO ONE TO BLAME BUT YOURSELF.
Free E-Book:
http://websyte.com/unity/rich.htm
Books:
Law of Success (25 years of research over 1000pages)
Think and Grow Rich
Power of the Subconscious mind
Success Is a Choice : Ten Steps to Overachieving in Business and Life
Masters of Success
12 Choices... That Lead to Your Success
Success Through a Positive Mental Attitude
The Magic of Thinking Big
The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People |
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balistic
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Joined: 01 Jun 2000
Posts: 2599
Location: Reno, NV, USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:29 am |
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It's easy to feel like you're the captain of your own destiny when you've never faced a genuinely insurmountable problem.
Wait until life comes at your out of your blindspot, Yarik. There are problems you cannot possibly prepare for or solve on your own.
You're only in control as long as fortune smiles.
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