[Spartanic]

I'm looking to buying a new program to use for painting. I want something with a lot of brushes. I'm currently using PSP 8, which works fine but the brushes aren't all that great and they're limited. just wondering whether to go with Painter or Photoshop.

P.S. When was the last time Sijun visited this place?

[Jin]

Hi,

While both Photoshop and Painter are terrific programs, each is designed for a different purpose and each does some things better than the other. Ideally, it's good to have both programs.

Painter IX is by far the better program for painting and if you want a lot of brushes, there are something like 789 in the default brush library installed with Painter IX and many more on the CD, plus loads of custom brush variants shared by Painter users.

Painter works beautifully with Wacom tablets, taking full advantage of pressure sensitivity and other tablet capabilities.

If you don't already have one, and if you can afford to buy one, do buy a Wacom tablet. They're the best tablets available. Check the models and pricing here:

http://www.wacom.com

Learn about Painter IX and download the free 30 day trial version of Painter IX here:

http://www.corel.com/painterix


You'll have a great time painting with Painter IX as there are so many options to choose from and so many ways to adjust brush control settings to make a brush variant paint the way you want.


Have fun!


Jinny Brown

Hurricane Katrina Relief:
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2005/katrina/help.center/

Corel Painter Focused Sites:
http://www.pixelalley.com
http://www.tutoralley.com
_______________________

[Spartanic]

Yes I do own a wacom, and I love it. Unfortunatly PSP 8 doesn't take advantage of Wacom's pressure sensitivity and tilt control.

[ceenda]

The main difference (imo) is the colour engine and method of brush application.

In photoshop, brushes apply colour to the canvas in a very linear way. Also, brushes in Photoshop can't 'drag' the colours underneath in order to give that 'wet paint' effect that Painter brushes do.

This is all personal, but I find Photoshop easier for detailed work, and work which requires good colour/level controls. Painter has a levels curve control which can be adjusted manually across the curve, but it's awkward.

Painter, however, has a colour engine that introduces some slight variation when mixing colours. Sometimes it's quite nice, sometimes it's completely off the scale (try using watercolor very lightly on a white background with paper texture).

In Photoshop it can be a bit of a struggle to get colour variation, but the little colour swatch has an HSB setting that makes adjusting colours quite easy.

Jin is quite right, having both is great and it's easy to switch between them. However, that's not always feasable (financially).

This isn't an iron-rule thing, but to get a feel for either, look at:

Photoshop:
www.dusso.com
www.goodbrush.com
www.sparth.com
www.supalette.com

Painter:
www.ryanchurch.com
www.mattiassnygg.com
www.imphead.com
www.seegmillerart.com

to get a sense of the strengths of each package. But bear in mind that all these artists frequently use both.

[Capt. Fred]

That's a good review there

Just to add to the argument my personal feelings on the down sides of painter�

Althought the brush options in photoshop are pracially an afert thought in the photo manip program, for me, using PS is like carrying a 5 colour watercolour set in your pocket. Whereas painter is like carrying 2 suit cases of parameters and brushes and assorted variations of palette knives.

Photoshop's simplicity appeals to me personally, the program is never in my way and the versatility of the simple brush options is surprising. When I open up the free trial for painter IX i feel a like I am squatting under the bow of a dank, dripping 80,000 tonne liner. It is dark, cold and wet and i want to play with my favourite red and yellow ball, but I have no idea where it is.

(sounds obscure, but that's just me)

[Max]

I have the same feeling like Capt. Fred concerning Painter.
It's just too much. Well, maybe once you have control over all options it's great to work with but I am just too lazy to start learning all the fuinctions. I've worked with Photoshop for quite a while and I am slowly getting control over the brushes. I think Photoshop images have a more clear, sharp look in general. Painter tries too hard to replace traditional mediums. It's digital and thats the way I like it. If you want oil look try real oils.
What's really in your way is skill though. Someone whoes really good doesn't care if he gets a broken pen or a golden feather.

[eyewoo]

Yeah... I know mine is a slightly weird reaction to Painter (which is, after all is said and done, a wonderful program), but I feel it does a disservice to digital as a medium of art, by essentially being designed to mimic other mediums. It doesn't have to be used that way, but that is the way most people try to use it... "oh... that looks so much like an oil painting"... etc.

On the other hand, Photoshop was designed and built to be a digital medium... That's what I like about it. Its interface, its looks are all clearly digital.

Again... that said, Painter is a neat program. I just view Photoshop with more respect.
_________________
HonePie.com
tumblr blog
digtal art

[Japong]

Also be aware that the actual image manipulation aspects of Painter are embarassing. If you want to cut things out, re-size them, change the orientation, etc., Painter will make you cry. There are no drag points, no image previews, even re-sizing the canvas is klunky.

[Capt. Fred]

I agree with eyewoo, I think it's the mimicry of traditional mediums which is its greatest weakness.

If Painter's brush controls were stripped down to the very basic parameters � just chuck out the current medium-centric method of 'pastel tool' and 'acrylic tool' � leaving you with the core of a powerful brush engine to play with, it would be a huge improvement. It's not that it has so many preset brushes that is bad, it's that they are so prominent in the workflow.

This is part of the reason why photoshop's (admittedly more limited) brush system works for me. I don't have to pick airbrush or chalk. The brush is a completely abstract thing from start to finish which happens as a result basic, logical parameters that are set in brush palette.

I think this is why photoshop seems more digital-native, and this method of working also happens to agree with the wiring of my brain.

[balistic]

As an alternative, you might consider Corel Photo-Paint. It combines all of the image manipulation capabilities of Photoshop with a more robust brush engine. You can find older versions on eBay for not a lot of money. I use version 10, myself.
_________________
brian.prince|light.comp.paint

[watmough]

I use painter 99% of the time,now.
But it has taken me a year to understand it...
One of the most useful aspects of the software,for me,is Paper Texture.
I make my own all the time for different effects.
I always use the same brush (Hard Pastel),and vary the paper texture in every way i can (invert,scale,etc..)...this makes for a very expressive way to paint without having to worry about all those fancy brush dynamics..(though I use those too:) )...really ,this is as simple as the way PS works,with more expressive potential..also,the pressure sensitivity seems more satisfying in Painter,too,for some reason.

[Jin]

Maybe one reason pressure sensitivity seems more satisfying in Painter (it certainly is for me), is that we have lots of additional control within Painter by adjusting Brush Tracking for particular effects with particular brush variants.

Another very neat thing in Painter is the Rotate Page tool that allows us to temporarily rotate the entire image to paint or draw at what would otherwise be awkward angles.

Painter can be simplified a whole lot by setting up custom brush libraries containing only the brush categories and brush variants we use most.

Custom Palettes help a lot too when simplifying Painter and making more room to work, by allowing us to organize brushes, main menu commands, and palette menu commands specifically for different projects so, with a single click on an icon a brush library is loaded and a particular brush variant is made available, and with a single click a main menu or palette menu command is initiated.

Painter 8 and Painter IX palettes can be docked any way we like or opened independently, and moved anywhere on the Painter screen, then multiple palette layouts can be saved for various kinds of work.

In Painter IX, we can customize our keyboard shortcuts any way we like.


Painter is not everyone's cup of tea, to be sure, but for those of us who like Painter (especially Painter IX).... we love the complexity and endless possibilities... that is, after we learn Painter enough to begin enjoying them and making them work for us.


Jinny Brown

Hurricane Katrina Relief:
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2005/katrina/help.center/

Corel Painter Focused Sites:
http://www.pixelalley.com
http://www.tutoralley.com
_______________________

[Spartanic]

Thanks for all the input guys. I think I'll go with Photoshop.

By the way ceenda, I see you like the same artists as I do. I've always been a big fan of Sparth and Craig Mullins.

[Spartanic]

Hey I wondering what people thought of Open Canvas? I've seen some nice art done with it. What's your guys opinions on it?

[Impaler]

Some small, pithy observations you should consider:

1) A program won't make you paint better, just easier. Skill comes from inside.

2) Painter is 300 bucks cheaper than Photoshop.

3) As further proof of #1, check out the dates on most of Craig Mullins' finished works. He painted most of them with Photoshop 5.5 and 6, which had comparatively archaic brush engines. The fancy stuff didn't come out until version 7!
_________________
QED, sort of.

[Brake Check]

I had nothing except PSP for a long time. Then I bought the Corel Suite. I use Corel Draw for vector and PSP for raster coloring..then I bought Painter.
As a PSP user, Painter is intuitive..although I haven't used PhotoShop...but IF...as someone stated..Corel PhotoPaint and Adobe PhotoShop are similiar...than PhotoShop won't come easy..at least for me. I use CorelPhotoPainte more lately but it is differs in many significant ways from PSP
I like the group..PSP, Painter and Corel Draw..no waacom tablet. I fingerpaint...with a mouse pad.

[Spartanic]

Yes I understand that having a different program won't make me paint better. However PSP 8 does not use all the Wacom features like pen tilting and pressure sensitivity. It also has a very limited set of brushes that are mostly shapes instead of textures.

[Brake Check]

Yes I understand...
I had PSP 8..7..6...5...
If I could have only ONE program..it would be Corel Draw
I tried to decide between Corel Draw/PhotoPaint/Rave Suite and PhotoShop when I bought Corel Graphics Suite. I felt bad at first..thinking I should have bought PhotoShop but now I really liike Corel
PhotoShop has more cache among designers but I found that many of Photoshop effects could be done in PSP..and PSP lighting is the BEST of any program..
I just upgraded my Corel Draw Suite and Painter..I believe the upgrade prices on Painter and Corel Suite are available to anyone who has PSP..becauseCorel owns PSP now so that is a big discount..but I am not certain about that..I think that is what I read..
As I said..Corel Photopaint seems to be similiar to PhotoShop (from the PhotoShop tutorials I have iconverted into PSP and it is hard for me to learn Corel PhotoPaint which is part of the Corel Graphics Suite with Draw so if that is like PhotoShp then...it is alien in its commands and menus.
I am using Painter now..and it is easy to learn..I can almost guess where the commands are that I need based on my PSP experiience.
I can't draw..I am not an artist but I enjoy fingerpainting and i think Painter is going to replace PSP in my repetoire for many of the functions I need..except for the lights..
Corel Draw will make you a better artist..but this is just my opinion.
PhotoShop is loved and used by many excellent artists..
It is up to you..try the Demos..I decided to go with all Corel..and now since PSP is Corel..all of my stuff is on the same label..

[eyewoo]

Brake Check... CorelDRAW is a vector based program like Adobe Illustrator. Photoshop is a bitmap based program. Not sure I follow your discussion, unless you are saying that vector based programs make better artists than bitmap based programs...

Maybe I read your reply too fast...
_________________
HonePie.com
tumblr blog
digtal art

[neff]

[Brake Check]

NeFF
I thought the same thing about Corel when I bought Graphics Suite..I almost returned the program..then I read the book on Corel Draw. and I noticed that many tutorials for PSP would say "I used Corel Draw for the line art."
Yes..a vector based program..will make better artists..if the alternative is..no artist...I can't draw..I know..I know.."right brain/left brain..draw it upside down.".Now if I can't draw it right side up..how can I draw it upside down? Alrighty..get a drawing book..I can't draw and page one says "draw this line or stick figure" and I try but my lines wander as they will..
Then I discovered Corel Draw..and Celtic Design...then I discovered Da Vinci and I can draw fine ..without a pen tablet in Corel Draw
Corel Draw has so many coloring features it is hard to say where raster and vector begin and end.
I would post my art but I don't have web site..so you can see what I mean..With Corel Draw I can draw..I can't draw at all..My handwriting is illegible..
I figured PSP was going to go down with Corel. PSP is the absolute best program every invented and Corel does not give a complete package. I have to use three programs to get the functionality of PSP..
I had Painter for almost 2 years and never used it..but the more I use Corel..the more impressed I am..It is a good group of programs with the wrong focus..Now it is "Corel office" compatibility when the real focus should be graphic web artists ...finger painters like me.

[B0b]

*gag* Corel Draw is a heap! talk about bloatware! didn't like it when it was v3 and didn't like it when it was v8... i remember trying to import an eps into Corel Draw and it gave me a display of a horizontal line that then 1/2 way across graphic and headed diagonally up to the top right hand corner of the graphic boundary - i thought it was a display error, but when printed from a postscript printer, it gave exactly the same result..

[Gort]

I'm a little bummed out that none of you have mentioned or endorsed one of the most powerful graphic applications out there to date, PC Paint.


_________________
- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[Brake Check]

Ok..I tossed together a page..

http://www.hartake.com/

NOW..I cannot draw..I do art for my own enjoyment..The top drawing on the page is a shading scrap..a study..I am testing various brushes and shading techniques in Painter..and in PSP..but the line art was all done in Corel Draw
Remember..I have never drawn on paper..haven't colored since kindergarten and never taken an art class..So it isn't going to be the greatest art..but here is what I do with Corel Draw, Painter and PSP..
GO HERE..--might have to copy and paste link..I don't know how to post links in the forum yet

http://www.hartake.com/

[neff]

Did you do the homepage with CorelDraw too? it doesnt work in any Browser i tried...

We really have to look forward to MICROSOFT ACRYLIC! WHEEE!
_________________
*

[eyewoo]

hmmm... Does the current version of CorelDRAW have a bitmap drawing component? I stopped using it at version 7 or 8...
_________________
HonePie.com
tumblr blog
digtal art

[Brake Check]

1) I just tried that Microsoft Paint..I like it..It has an effect on one of the brushes I have been looking for..
2) The site is new..The homepage was placed on the site by the server. I will try to remove it..
) I don't know what the answer to the vector/bitmap question is..

[Jin]

Phil,

I'm guessin' you already know this...

I haven't used Corel Draw since version 8 but if it's still the same, the Corel Draw Suite comes with Corel Draw, Corel Photo Paint and some other utility software.

Corel Photo Paint is a bitmap program. It's plenty capable but I never could warm up to it, like you can't warm up to Painter. .

The very exact minute I installed and launched Painter 4.0 that first night, in 1995, Corel Photo Paint was dust. Maybe it was dust even before because I'd been drooling over the Painter can (early packaging was a big ol' paint can) for months and months working up the courage to spend all that money.... as I recall, about $400 back then.


Oh heck, why go on guessing when the info is so available?

Just checked the Corel site. CorelDraw Graphics Suite 12 includes:

� Corel Draw (vector) for illustration and page layout

� Corel Photo Paint (raster) for digital imaging, photo editing, etc.

� Corel RAVE for motion graphics



Jinny Brown

Hurricane Katrina Relief:
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2005/katrina/help.center/

Corel Painter Focused Sites:
http://www.pixelalley.com
http://www.tutoralley.com
_______________________

[eyewoo]

Thanks Jin...

So I think Brake Check is referring to Photo Paint rather than Corel Draw. That makes more sense.
_________________
HonePie.com
tumblr blog
digtal art

[Brake Check]

I don't know what makes more sense??? but Brake Check is referring to COREL DRAW.I don't use PhotoPaint although I have a bit more appreciation for it after converting PhotoShop Tutorials into PSP..The commands are very similiar..so I don't understand the previous few comments posted on the thread..
Corel Draw is Vector Based..I don't kow if it is has BMP tools..Any graphic created in Draw can be converted to BitMap in Draw and the tools are PhotoPaint but I never use that Draw feature..I like a rougher finish..PhotoPaint is very slick and polished as is Draw's BMP effects... I don't know if the full version of PhotoPaint is accessable through Draw. I wouldn't care if the tools were bpm if the tools were as useful as the vector..I just upgraded and I know version 9..I don't know all the changes in version 12 yet so whether the tools have been expanded..I can't answer.
I use Corel Draw for the line art..then paint over the lines...The Celtic Design was Hairline outline..a pixel wide when I exported it into PSP for coloring. You can see the vector line (which in this case I expanded before exportation.. on your left hand side in the unfinished shading scrap..