[Max]

FULL ARTICLE

"Florida law already lets residents defend themselves against attackers if they can prove they could not have escaped. The new law would allow them to use deadly force even if they could have fled and says that prosecutors must automatically presume that would-be victims feared for their lives if attacked." - washingtonpost.com

That's REALLY weird. Doesn't sound good. What's your opinion on this?

[stephan vachon]

this is a shoot first ask questions later situation. doors open for mistakes.

[ceenda]

or malice.

[Naeem]

agreed.
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http://www.annisnaeem.blogspot.com/

[Gort]

I'm all for it.

It sends a message to predators.

As for malice? I don't really see it that way, and as for shooting first, some already do that and pay the consequences in court.

I think the manner of scenario presented by the writer is somewhat over-generalized. Fearing for their lives? Being attacked or threatend with a knife, baseball bat or other deadly weapon - gun included - is reason enough for someone to fear for their life and in my opinion justifies self protection.

Another opinion of mine and somewhat passively related to the issue is that there are some mean, evil people in this world, and sometimes the judiciary system just doesn't protect the mainstream well enough from these monsters. America is plagued by a system of revolving doors for violent offenders, yet the kid busted with a few hits of acid is locked away for 10 or 15 years. What gives?
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- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[Max]

People fear "evil" people with guns, therfore they buy guns to protect themself from people with guns?!?

What the,....how ironic is that?

[Godwin]

If you just ban all guns, what's the big loss? OMG YOU HAVE VIOLATED MY RIGHTS. Shut up.
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Derelict Studios|Godwin's Space

[[Shizo]]

hehe..

[Anthony]

So in other words...don't attack someone who has a gun in Florida. Seems to be the upshot of it. Don't see how that's different than the logic of not attacking people who have guns in general. Eh? ^_^
_________________
-Anthony
Carpe Carpem
http://www.anthonyfransella.com

[Gort]

[Max]

Well Gort, I understand what you are meaning but...

[Dekard]

If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them..


Anyhow, if someone broke into your house and they had a bat, you couldn't legally defend yourself by shooting them unless they were coming after you and your life was in danger.

Now, if that same fool breaks into your house, you have the right to defend yourself. I do not own a gun, I used to but sold it as I do not believe in having guns in my house, but I do agree with the decision.

Too many people (in the US) get bent out of shape over the perpetrators rights.

Well, I for one am sick of that kind of nonsense when the individual chose to break into a house/steal/murder/rape/etc they forfeited those rights to be treated with respect and will meet violence with violence.

Previously, if you shot and killed a perp in your home it was up to you to provide proof your life was in danger and/or you'd also spend time in jail for protecting your family.

Is this law too far? Possibly, but until they get something 'in-between' the two it's all we got.
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.::astrochimp.net::.

[Max]

[Dekard]

[Gort]

Max:

I disagree with your Cold War comparison, especially since it's been over for quite some time and the state of America and the laws therein as defined by states has moved on and evolved in ways conducive to the American state of political and social being; however, your right in that America and Austria have different pasts; America is way different from many countries and in many regards, but I can take exception to England; guns are banned there, but England is plagued by it's own fair share of crime, some of which is violent. The law in America does not say that EVERYBODY has to have a gun; no one says you have to own a gun (unless you live in Kennesaw, GA), rather if I chose to own a gun, it's a constitutional right and should be observed and respected, just as the right to your opinion on the matter should be observed and respected (regardless of whether or not I agree).

[Giant Hamster]

Ever heard of a little place called Nicaragua? They don't have guns. But they have a higher murder statistic than here where you can have a gun.

"No guns, how do people kill eachother?" you ask. With knives and machettes.

No guns. More murder. If someone wants to kill someone else, they're going to do it with whatever they can find.

Get over it, guns aren't the problem.

[ceenda]

I come originally from Glasgow, which has the highest murder rate in Europe, and (I believe) the highest knife crime. Guns are used quite regularly (in areas where drug gangs compete for territory), but I think it's rare that gun crime effects anyone not directly related to gang disputes (unless it's a bank robbery).

The problem there is that kids grow up in bad estates where the prevailing mentality is "if I walk down the wrong street into a group of guys, they probably have knives, so I'll carry a knife myself for my own protection". This inevitably creates a culture of fear with no real safety for anyone (except police with flak jackets), as there will always be people to "kick off" the violence.

But I find myself considering a situation where, say, a businessman is walking through an alley in, say, Chicago. Behind him, a large rough looking guy comes running towards him. Businessman thinks "argh!", pulls out gun and fires a shot into the guy.

Later transpires that the guy was late for an appointment and was running through shortcut alleys to get there.

Does the businessman deserve to go to jail if he *genuinely* felt the threat was real? Does his "pre-emptive strike" justify his own personal fears about safety?

It really is a difficult subject.

That said, if someone's stalking around your house at 3am, you have a family, young children etc., like any sensible creature on Earth you would do anything to protect them. I suppose in that instance, I would be happier with a Magnum in my hand than a hardback copy of "Spectrum 11" which is closest to hand...

[Dekard]

[Impaler]

Unless you can shoot the bad guy's bullets out of the air with your gun, having a gun when you're already being mugged is kind of like buckling your seatbelt after the crash.

Now, I own guns. They're fascinating, amazing pieces of technology and design, true engineering marvels of our day. It's fun to blow shit up with a shotgun, too. It's also inconceivable to me that I would use one of those guns to actually kill another person. While you may have the legal right, I don't think any law in this country gives you the moral and ethical authority to actually take another person's life.

Which really gets me to the point of this law. This law isn't about crime prevention and civil safety. This law is just about giving a certain, small percentage of Americans a specific amount of more leeway in gun use. You can't arm everyone and assume everything will play out well. True social change takes place at the grassroots level, fixing the situation that actually CREATED the problem. Get rid of poverty, and crime will go down.

If you want to protect yourself, don't bother with a gun. Guns get you and other human beings killed. If you want to protect yourself, learn gongfu or Karate or Tae Kwon Do and start beating the shit out of the criminal element.
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QED, sort of.

[Dekard]

[Max]

Listen, there are many things I can hardly make an "objective" opinion on.
But I am sure of one thing, this law won't decrease crime rate - It will increase it!
Many poeple will die because of this law and It doesn't matter for me if it's the "good" ones or the "bad" ones.
Humans are humans! Its so logically. There will be a big tension everywhere.
I could get shoot just from looking at some guy in some weird way.
Aftewards he can simply say, well this guy seemed to be dangerous!
And I am sure he will have a great lawyer! Does that make the situation better?
I can understand that everyone want's to protect himself. But that's exaclty what creates the whole dilemma.

Everyone fears everyone. NRA claps hands.

Two people, two guns: two potential victims.
Two people, one gun: one potential victim.

As I said, I don't care who's good and who's bad.
The more guns and the bigger your rights to use them the more people will die.

Do you really think you will take your gun and will shoot the POTENTIAL bad guy over?
If it's really one of the evil guys HE will be the one who will shoot you over because you
took your gun eventough he just wanted to rob you and get out of here.
I think the normal person will be in greater danger from now on.
Don't you think when taking your gun you will make the situation worse for both of you?

That's simply not an atmophere someone want's to live in.

Of course it's everybodies right to defend himself. But that's simply not the way it should be hanled.

I respect everybodies opinion and I know that we are of two minds about this.
I just want to make clear that there are other possibilities to handle this problem.

[Gort]

Max, dude, man, you're over-generalizing and sounding emotional on this issue. Do your homework; there are many similar laws already passed in many states and have been for years, yet there's no evidence that points to you're saying. As a matter of fact, the evidence is quite the contrary. We'll let time speak for itself; let's give it a year and see what happens. We'll give it longer, and I sincerely believe you'll be proven incorrect.

With that said I respectfully think you're wrong on this issue. Nothing personal, man, just a healthy yin versus yang.

As for poverty being an ilk, that's partly true. Since the 1970s the American economy has grown stronger (but not without ups or downs); unemployment is nowhere as high as it was in the 70s and early 80s and the number of crimes isn't as high either. Why? There's more people working. Studies have suggested that the higher unemployment is, more crime likely happens.
_________________
- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[Max]

Well, you're right, this actually really does evoke emotions because I think it's a serious issue.
As you said, we will see how this will turn out. Maybe I am wrong after all concerning this special law.
But the principle of weapons conected with violence won't and will never change.
I'd like to see everyone without any guns and fear - I know this thought is pretty naive.
Anyway, I feel safe without guns, this might be because I don't live in Florida.
Even if i'd now that there's a posibility that somone might attak me I would
never kill this person without knowing his real intention.

I am sorry if I sounded too personal : )
I just hope that people will find other ways to protect themselfes rather than
acting violently towards other people no matter if they are criminals or not.

[Gort]

Nothing was taken personal nor was any offense taken to your views; you haven't acted irrationally or without diplomacy, and I appreciate that. Although I don't see eye to eye on your view entirely, I do understand where you're coming from, and in some ways I feel the same.

I'd love to see a society of complete harmony; I fantasize about it often and especially after seeing and reading the news. Remember 2010, Odyssey 2? "These are your worlds . . . use them in peace". How cool would that be?

But humanity has a long way to go, I fear, as violence is still part of our nature. Even if we did have the capability to traverse and colonize the stars, one world would likely find some reason to conquer another.
_________________
- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[Godwin]

[gLitterbug]

Excuse me, but I feel a bit weird if someone from a country with those high crime rates lectures me about how to make a country safe. What do I care though, in my country I can walk around pretty safely alone at night and not be affraid of getting shot. I have no numbers, but I doubt that even Vienna comes close to the crime rates you got over there.

Whatever this law will do for or against death rates due to crime, one thing it already did for sure. It once again helped to ensure America�s image of being full with insecure, scared and paranoid individuals who need guns to protect themselves against the other half of the population, the mad gun-slinging poor guys from the ghettos that mug you if you step out at night and don�t even blink their eye when killing someone for 5 dollars.

I wonder if the share of normal and great individuals in your country ever gets tired of the image the USA stamps onto itself time and again.

Oh and I think that Germany should really get some kind of royalties everytime someone uses Hitler as an example to justify random things.

[Gort]

Sort of wondered when/if you were going to chime in.

You're a highly defensive person, glitterbug. If you look at these posts, you'll see that no one is lecturing anyone, nor is anyone making blanketed, prejudiced statements about things that they really have no knowledge of - like you're doing. It's nice to see a good healthy debate turn to nonsense by your seemingly pubescent attitude.

You don't know JACK about America, except what you watch on your TV (likely while living at home with Mom and Dad) or what you hear in some anti-American circle jerking group of friends at the local wherever-it-is you all hang out. THAT's what I get tired of - people like yourself making value judgements on things you have absolutely NO REAL KNOWLEDGE or EXPERIENCE OF. YOU don't live here; YOU don't pay taxes here; YOU don't vote here; YOU don't walk these streets at night, and until you walk a mile in a man's shoes, I'd suggest you think twice before casting him assunder.

Max, on the other hand, seems to present a mature viewpoint. He has an opinion; I don't necessarily agree, but it's easier for me to recognize and respect his view, because he presents it with diplomacy and maturity. Here's a hint for you - learn something from that.

But you're entitled to your opinion. It's a good thing America and a bunch of other countries at the expense of many, many lives helped establish a social model in Europe that allows for those freedoms of speech, because if Hitler were still around - oops - where shall I send the check?

Germany is entitled to nothing in regards to Hitler's legacy (damn, gotta cut another check), and if you really think they are, then you're a sad human being, in my opinion.
_________________
- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[watmough]

This is becoming an "you're not American,so you dont understand" argument.Gort.
I dont think that is a logical approach.
Your argument is just as full of speculation and subjectivity as you claim everyone elses to be....you are assuming you know how Glitterbug and Max get their information...there is no reason logically why they cant be just as informed as you on this issue.



edit: as an American......i would GLADLY give up my POLITICAL right to own firearms if instead I could have a basic HUMAN right to medical care.

[gLitterbug]

It�s disappointing to see you go down to the level you just went, for some reason I hoped for more from you. Of course I hate all americans, since I disagree with your opinion and do not make the calm approach to a discussion like that (which Max does since he�s a different kind of person i guess). Since I live with Mum and Dad and watch TV all day long and am NOT american, I can�t have a point nor am I allowed to say my opinion in a not sugar-coated way so that Mr. Gort here on his high horse doesn�t get offended.

It seems that you walked quite some miles in everyone elses shoes already, hell you probably even single-handedly freed Europe from Hitler all by yourself. I�m really glad that the great americans who helped to get rid of the Nazis were different to you. Because if not, we would probably have a quite different Europe today too. I mean after all that you�ve done for us (which I highly value and I really hate to say this, you did not ALL only out of love for the poor people that got gased, but also for your own protection in case Hitler might grow too big to be disposed of at all) , we could of course never do anything to make up for it and would be in life-long debt which also means we can never disagree with you and tell you that of course.

Sad thing is that with your posts you just strengthen the image that people get of America(the one from TV of course). I�m glad I also know enough other guys from your country to see you are not the only kind of person there. After all there are plenty that do not only claim to be glad about hearing different opinions and then suddenly say things like you did. Your maturity really shines through here and I wonder how far you would go in a real boiling argument when standing next to me. Thats not accusing you of anything, but you know what, I don�t know you besides your posts and just because you claim to be so law-abiding and harmony-loving doesn�t mean you actually are.

Oh and as I stated above, I�m glad I don�t walk these streets at night, because it seems with your logic and without a gun I�d not be alive long anyways. As much as I like guns from a certain perspective, I�d not feel comfortable carrying one around, because honestly I believe a trigger is pulled faster than you can sometimes logically think when affraid. Facing the choice of being shot or shooting someone on accident and going to prison for that, I�m not sure the second choice is really that much more attractive.

Guess I have to explain the last part of my last post for you, since you seem to not have gotten it at all. But then saying it in your words you don�t know JACK about me really. What I meant is that it seems you would be pretty lost if you can�t get out the Hitler card for any game you play. Because nobody can ever argue with that, since you saved the world from him. This being a shit-flinging match already anyways, I think I can go even further and say more, because I�m really pissed about you right now.

Look at watmough here, someone who would actually rather be treated if facing an ailment, than running around with a gun in his pocket. I guess what he says is bullshit too, right? I mean who would actually think that getting social care for everyone is better than having your own personal friend who can put the hurt on anyone else anytime you tell him to? Fighting poverty would probably be an equal dumb thing to do if you can just spend the money on producing bombs�n�shit. Face it, not everyone thinks you�re the best you can be already. I have to admit being anti-american is a trend for some people these days, but there are plenty who go a bit further than just critisize you to be cool. Some people actually care and can�t understand what the hell you are doing in certain areas. Only because we say that out loud more often recently, you suddenly don�t want to be friends anymore and think we turned on you (our saviour btw, therefore that probably equals to a mortal sin).

What I am growing tired of is someone lecturing me and claiming he is not. I�m learning daily and one thing I learned already is that people like you need someone who stands up against them and not tries to be nice and just goes away from the argument to have some fake harmony. I wonder if you ever took a taste of your own medicine and inform yourself about other things than your own country. You might learn a thing or two yourself.

I have no gun, so if you want me to shut up, just shoot me.

[Gort]