[Matthew]

Hey

As I said in the Summer practise before closure I am gonna start a discussion thread here about any future activities, like similar to that summer practise.
Having a lot of experience of this I am a bit split about things like this cause it all start out with a big commotion and with a lot of interest, then the thread falls down into shadow.

What I want if I make a thread like this and to make it work and what my vision was from the beginning was a hope for more participation, if not any participation I do not see any reason for a thread like this to be made cause then we can post in the speedy instead.

So, the thing is. *If 10 sijun members sign up in here and join for a month at a time with a daily participation I will make a new thread called, "The Big Practise Thread".
One practise painting a day for a month is what you sign up for.
Dedication is what I am looking for and if fewer than 10 members sign up the deal is off and the thread will not be made.

Let me know what you think about this cause it is a bit different and maybe too forward. Anyway, I am tired of making threads where only I am the devoted one.
keep up everyone
I gotta go and make me some lunch
Matthew

[eyewoo]

I think the threads you start are excellent and fun. Sometimes I participate and sometimes I don't. I think the best approach is to just throw out an idea for a thread and then let the forum run with it till it dies a natural death... That seems to me to be what forums are about.
_________________
HonePie.com
tumblr blog
digtal art

[neff]

i've no time to paint a new pic every day, but i'd like to join some threads with a funny theme like "build your own evil monster-robot of the future" etc...
_________________
*

[Petri.J]

Yes dedication is good, but perhaps daily is too strict plan. I'm a man who doesn't make empty promises, so I must say that I can't promise to make a painting per day, but I can try. So count me in. Though I don't think there's going to be 10 of us.

And did I understand you right that you're the only devoted one (my english is not actually very good [that�s why I'm usually very brief ])? Actually I counted that you made 3 paintings and I made 6 in the Summer thread, and I don't know if someone made even more.
I'm sorry if I misunderstood you.

[Bishop_Six]

Hey, Matthew. Will you be providing the references as with the summer practice thread or will participants be finding their own refs? I'm actually very interested but I don't want to sign up yet because I don't want to sign up if I can't fulfill the goal(what with classes and work and etc.). So I'll think about it and post again when I've decided. By the way, I really admire your dedication, Matthew. See you later.

[Ranath]

I really would like to join, but obviously can't promise anything. School starts next monday and I'm mostly up to my neck in homework so I wonder if I'm gonna have time to paint at all.. should have joined to summer practice, definately would have had time to do that.. arrrgh!!

If it's something like landscapes from ref, I probably could do it daily.. 'cause I probably can handle them quite quickly.. if they're gonna be super uber cool portraits, forget it 'cause I can't draw them (quickly) to save my life

Neat idea though, I hope people will show up (and that I show up)

[Warhead82]

Like i said in the SP thread, i am always up for new threads that help me learn. And would honestly love more of these. I think thats what more of these art forums need. Art forums are for posting yes, but from my understanding, they are also for learning from each other as well and that is something that doesn't really happen as much.

I like the idea for this Big Practise thread, but what is it, you just gonna have pics like the other SP thread? And we paint 1 a day, i mean thats cool and all, but what im looking for is something that can teach me something really useful, to really boost up my skills, im not sure what, but i know there is something. I think this is a really great idea, but would like to see other threads as well. Maybe have more than 1 running?

What i would love to see out of Art forums, especially sijun, is Making it almost as good as an online art school, and free. Like fun activities, serious activites things to learn from, and i mean really learn Some things i personally find i learn better from is drawing/painting traditionally. Maybe have more activities related on this as well? I would be more than willing to help out on organizing some activities.

I hope you know what im trying to say, thats just some of my thoughts


Justin.
_________________
When you look at a blank canvas or drawing paper, it stares you in the eyes and thinks it can beat you.~ Justin Beckett

[balistic]

I'm jumping on the "every day is too much" bandwagon. People have jobs, relationships, and other personal issues that can make it hard to be creative every day. I think a better standard rule might be something like 5 or 10 pieces over a month.
_________________
brian.prince|light.comp.paint

[Matthew]

yeez guys I think I will have to pass the torch to you younger kids to create and manage themed threads in the future. Too often and too much familiar is this, the discussions where I am trying to get some kind of participation and it mostly ends up in excuses and such.
The summer practise and that Create the comic thread were probably my last themed threads here in Sijun.

I am sorry about this
thanks for the comments above though eventhough I am not dedicated enough it seems, since I have to let this go.

Matthew

[balistic]

Matthew, one thing I think you need to realize, is that quality matters just as much as quantity. You started out here at Sijun, in the speedpainting thread, and I think that it may have given you a warped sense of how an artist most effectively studies.

I've never seen a highly finished piece from you. Something you've spent 20 or 30 hours on. Sketching is important Matt, but so is finishing. Finishing takes time. It forces you to stick with a problem and figure out a solution. I don't think one gets that by habitually banging out a quick sketch once a day.

I find your scolding tone a little offensive, to be honest. You always start these threads, and then you freak out when they aren't as popular as speedpainting. Relax man. Sijun is not supposed to be a competitive environment. There are legitimate reasons to not paint every day, and there are legitimate reasons to spend a lot of time on a single piece.

I think your summer practice thread was quite successful. It encouraged my boss here at Fathom to start painting again. Don't flip out, bro.
_________________
brian.prince|light.comp.paint

[Matthew]

I am not freaking out in any way eventhough it probably appears to be that way, neither am I looking for the threads to be popular, that's not the point.
Maybe I have made too many of these threads and maybe I have been asking for too much from the members.
I remember the old days with my Mecha threads and such where Ukitakumuki and those guys posted frequently, if like that it is worth it to make a themed thread.
Can't be really be a practise thread if members post one picture and then call it a day on the thread, forums doesn't work that way.

There is a reason for mileage though and with that set aside quality and quantity, there other aspects to learn from it. Turner knew it and spooge do aswell. Something similiar to intuition I guess, just like the gunslingers back in the old wild west.
Oh well I suck and that is what it is too.

Anyway I cannot do these themed threads anymore and I think I have tried for too long, my heart says no and I hope you guys willl not hate me after this.
I don't hold any grudge so do not take this rambling from me personally, it's just this if not any dedication I do not see any point of keep creating them threads.

once again I am sorry
Matthew

[Warhead82]

Thats really a bummer Matt, i didn't say no to this thread either, i was just saying i wanted to expand things, get more threads going, more learning opportunities etc. I think this thread is a cool idea and it should stay. That really sucks your gonna give up on this, and making other threads, cause its the only thing that really keeps sijun going. Its the only thing that keeps me really interested in art forums, is to be able to participate in, learning threads, and also themed threads, like creating a mech or w.e. Well i dont think you should quit on this and other threads man, but i guess it is really up to you.

Justin.
_________________
When you look at a blank canvas or drawing paper, it stares you in the eyes and thinks it can beat you.~ Justin Beckett

[Impaler]

I recognize your good intentions, Matthew. I understand your wanting to make Sijun a more involved place. I appreciate both of these at a fundamental level, but these themed threads are starting to feel a little Hitlerian.

First, you start threads that rely entirely on member participation. You imply that these threads are for the good of the community. The problem is (and this is where it starts to get a little tyrannical), no one is asking for them. Worse still, you're getting upset when no one devotes themselves to a thread they didn't ask for.

I'm not accusing you of megalomania or saying you're a Sijun Nazi. You're just trying to make sijun a great place for learning. You need to listen to the rest of the members, though. This isn't sijun-according-to-matthew, frankly. If a bunch of people don't want to participate in the summer sketch thread or speedpainting or paintchat or whatever, it's not because they're lazy or undevoted. They probably just want to develop their own style, their own ideas, their own paintings that won't come from rote technical skill. Most importantly, they understand that the forum isn't responsible for their painting; they are.

I hope I didn't offend you or anyone else with this post, Matthew, but I felt it had to be said.
_________________
QED, sort of.

[Matthew]

Impaler, that's really true and agreed and I also noticed that I keep repeating myself, so it's about time to stop the bitching from me and stop doing these themed threads from now on.
Eventhough it started out with good intentions from me the whole thing is starting to escalade into something where I am trying to force it and that cannot be good at all, I see that more clearly now.
I appreciate your comment Impaler.

Warhead82, there's nothing stopping you from doing it

ok I gotta to the store then I have some oil-painting that needs to be treated the right way
have a nice day guys
Matthew

[Ranath]

there's no reason to freak out.

Doing themed threads is awesome.. but to get people really join (like propeller thread) would require some super talented people showing the way. I'm not saying anyone who posted to this thread wouldn't be good enough, they're just not so popular like Scott Robertson or Craig Mullins who contributed to propeller thread.

Conceptart.org and cgtalk can pull off threads like this. Why? Because they have some high profile artists involved.. and it's part of their imago anyway - they want to be the super organized groups who have some kind of "mission" (which is awesome, incase someone can't get into art school and want to practice)

Sijun is a place where people post on their free time, as more like a hobby, along with possible professional career - just to relax and do fun sketches. I'm not saying that "hobbyists" couldn't have goals, even highly ambitious ones, it's just that you shouldn't worry if these hobbyists don't want to get involved with 1 pic/day or death -idea.. it sounds too much like work and sets pressure, which is against the reason why sijun is quite popular among professionals - it absolutely sets no pressure to join. People do it because it's fun.

Think it this way, you'd get far more posts/day if you don't set the rule of one pic/day - because the rule drives people away.

Anyway, you shouldn't be discouraged, sijun works in it's own pace. I hope you don't give up on stuff like this, there's always people who want to join (like me). I gotta run now but will continue..

[Matthew]

yes that is true things like that do work in other forums, just look at that Daily sketchgroup in cgtalk. People do post like crazy in there and I do not think that is because there are pro's posting, the pro's mostly do not post in the daily sketch threads anyway.
I honestly can't say why this doesn't work in Sijun, it seems to me eventhough Sijun is more relaxed there isn't an interest in the foundation.
We all, the members, are building what the forum is.
But forums have to be built upon ideas and ideas have to be expressed but in the end it has made me become someone who is trying to force the ideas, that doesn't work either.
But then again, if someone is not having any ideas the interest will fade I believe and things will become a ghost of what it once was.

Anyway I am to snowed in and I am starting to loose grip upon what I wanted with ideas like this in the first place.
You cannot blame me for not trying though cause I have been doing this for a long while here in Sijun.
Ah shit!! I am bitching again.
*Matthew slaps himself twice

may god have faith in Sijun
/end of rant

[Ranath]

at cgtalk, the people who arrange DSG seems to have a lot of authority. They have all these fancy titles like "DSG Forum leader, CG society member, Director-in-law.. " etc. so yeah, people post there like crazy. Also, cgtalk has more active members than sijun, I guess.

In CA, they have high profile artists linked in their front page, just as the artists were in service of CA.. sure people find it interesting.

I'm not member in CA at all, joined cgtalk to enter one challenge, haven't been posting there since. I like sijun because it is what it is. I don't think sijun will die without such huge administration, speedpainting thread is legendary now and it will keep people coming here. Sijun doesn't have to compete with CA and cgtalk with themed threads and artist Q&As because that isn't what sijun is supposed to be.

Too much tweaking around with sijun foundation might actually scare people off, and kill sijun.

Themed threads like you suggested is an excellent idea though, they don't get too big anyway and aren't too pushy to make people join. 1 pic/day is maybe too much, but surely there's a way we can get threads like that to work.

[AndyT]

Matthew: I'd reread balistic's post a few times.

No interest in the foundation on Sijun?
Guess most artists here know how to practice properly and there are better ways than doing comics and copying reference images nonstop for month.
You always go for the fancy stuff yourself rather than working on the basics
(You work on textures and colors for example, without worrying about getting the proportions right)

Why don't you join an activity somebody else started and show the commitment that you'd like to see from others?
I know you did post in such threads ... but only occasionally.
And isn't that what you are complaining about here?

In the speedpainting as well as the daily sketch group threads people come and go.
There are not many people who post images each day.

Almost all of your threads have been successful so far. There is no reason to complain.
_________________
http://www.conceptworld.org

[Matthew]

Why are you making it personal Andy? don't think I have to defend my work-methods in here and the sijun members only get to see 1% of my ugly sketches anyway.

About committment, snif, I think I am the one who has posted the most pictures here in Sijun. Committed enough?

hmm I wonder if you notice the split of a second when you turn shizophonic?
think I have to cutdown on the sijun airtime aswell, forum mileage is never good.
Matthew

[AndyT]

You are complaining about Sijun. Guess that's why I am complaining, too.

Posting a lot of half-assed, unfinished images (I do that, too) isn't commitment, it is spamming.
As balistic said ... why don't you work on one painting for 30 hours and show that one here?
I did work longer on 2 or 3 of my paintings and those are the ones that I'm still kinda proud off.
It is not supposed to be an insult. Just something you might want to think about.
Your post-1-image-each-day concept encourages posting flawed pieces.

Sijun is mostly about quality ... not about mileage.
For mileage start a sketchbook at conceptart.org
Sijun is more of a gallery thing.
_________________
http://www.conceptworld.org

[Ranath]

Matthew, don't get offended now but you need to work on your attitude a bit. You're making yourself a bit of a martyr here.. because "you're the only committed one and others are lazy and can't be bothered with activities.."

and that's the same with the art school thread, you didn't make it in I take, and you're a bit sour? I don't want to offend you but that attitude really won't take you far. It seems that you're quite sensitive and you take offense easily if your ideas are not supported and go like "I withdraw myself from sijun for good because you guys hate me.." that seems almost bit childish to me. Also, balistic's advice was very good indeed and I'd take it (and I do, because my problem is lack of really finished works too..)

You are, of course, entitled to do whatever you please but I'd recommend sticking around.

[eyewoo]

I second and third balistic's suggestion. There is a very profound gap between a quick sketch and a final painting. A lot is learned from doing quick sketches, but in a relatively narrow area of art and illustration. Taking a sketch and moving it to a finished work involves a greater grasp of both tools and understanding.
_________________
HonePie.com
tumblr blog
digtal art

[Matthew]

So yea I guess you are the one whom to set the guidelines then Andy?
Sijun is about this and not about that and this is why I do this? that is just as stupid as the earlier discussions was way back, guys telling u that the forum is about quality and not about anything else.
We are not all looking for realism and making perfect drawings, there are reasons why one artist choose to bend the rules, I am not sure u will get it.

Forums generally are fucked up because everyone is so fucking obsessed with someone being pro or not, if pro then you brag around and flash off your finished pieces and everyone wants a piece of the artist and their pro status, and why pro? because of Xerox capabilities?
If not pro noone could care less, it is all a critique system based on the motif in the painting and nothing else.
You say work 30 hours, work on what? on the drawing just because you say so? on the similarity to the real world? on the detail?
Seems to me guys like you Andy just repeat what you have heard from others.

I claimed way back that the art world is fucked up but maybe this goes for the world in general.
If i were to post a finished piece everyone would go -"oohhh", and with something following -"you have really improved". But have I really? You are only then looking to the motif and nothing else and the motif itself is setting the guideline for whether you are good or not.
That's not what I want and that is why I do not post finished works, I did post some finished oils way back in the speedy but it's not worth it.

I am my worst critique and I know what I am looking for with my drawing and painting, do you know what you are looking for Andy?

I bet this will stir up some commotion.
I think I am starting to regret that I have been involved as much as I have with this community, I do not think it was worth it when I look back now.
I think I deserve the right to complain though cause I have been doing a lot for this community and a lot of works in the shadow with things not only regarding posting and such.

ok call me an asshole after this if that is what you want.
Sincerely
Matthew

[Sumaleth]

Matthew, I don't know why you keep letting yourself get worked up. Everyone's just enjoying life, enjoying the art, and you're like a coke bottle that's shaking silently in the background that goes BANG every four months or thereabouts.

The pseudo-summer practice project (it's winter for half of us, but I let it slide ) worked out really well. But with this new one it's like you're setting homework. It's a fine line, I know.

--

Maybe Ballistic or Eyewoo would be interested in rejuvenating Draw Club, on a bi-monthly cycle or something?
_________________
Art Links Archive -- Artists and Tutorials

[balistic]

I don't think you're an asshole Matthew, I think you're a developing artist who's still figuring out what it means to be creative. We're all still doing that to some degree.

The only thing I take issue with is your suggestion that most of the people here are lazy or unmotivated or whiners. I'll let you borrow my painful nerve disorder for a month and see how many sketches you're able to do after working 50 hours a week at my day job.

Your enthisiam is commendable, but not everyone can work as often as they'd like to.

How about a thread with the goal of finishing a highly polished piece over the course of the month or two? Have a few milestones that participants must meet:

- thumbnail sketches
- tonal/color sketches
- WIP
- final piece

I bet people would participate in that. Even if only 5 or 6 people finished their pieces, that's 6 new pieces of art that have been brought into the world, and that's something.

edit:

Sumaleth - I do have some ideas for themed threads. I'll PM one to you.
_________________
brian.prince|light.comp.paint

[Popeye]

Matthew, i know you are doing it all out of good intention.but i think you should chill out.
i think you are the first one who take it personal. you sound like you are the one that got appointed to be the leader of this place. and whose idea is that? no body asks anybody to take responsibility for maintaining the forum as active as possible. this place has been quiet and so what? it has been like that for couple years and there are good posts once in awhile. this is the way it is and i see no problem at all.
i really dont understand why you want to make this place like other forums..for me, this is the only forum i post becuase i like it low profile.speed painting thread is still very strong ,and basically what you are doing in the practice thread is very similar to speedy.i see no reason to start a thread like this. and if you have good idea about a theme thread then just start it. i dont understand why you care so much about the paticipation. if it is an interesting idea, people join, and if not, that's not you or any body's fault.

i rarely speak of my feeling toward the other but i guess this time i think you are going a little overboard. well sorry if you think that i am taking it personal.
dont try to superimpose your own thought to a place of freedom like this.
i can totally feel the sour in your post , especially on this thread.

i dont post too much but i have been checking this place everyday since 2000 and i notice that there have been a lot of people(a lot of them are good artists imo) giving you advices. but most of the time you sounds like you got offended so easily.( or at least i get that feeling reading your post). to be honest i think you are very egotistic. that's fine if you really think you know what you want . to me thought, i change my taste and goal change every now and then. i want to experience more, that's why i always tell myself to be open minded. i really doubt that young artist like you have already known your destination . my point is, calm down, and take it easy. i believe i am saying these for your good.

[Duracel]

I don't know how you decide what to paint, but im someone you look up a thread and think "hey, cool idea" open photoshop and start painting.
Next day another think get my attention and i start painting something relating to this.

I do far more paintings, if i don't have to. I have no real discipline(thats my biggest fault), all i do is based upon motivation.


If there's a thread with a nice idea, i like, i will join in. If i get hooked by something other, i'll stay away from it.
If there is a new cool thread everyday, i won't join everyone.
The propellerthread was "one single phenomen" -> so everyone wanted to take part in this thread, just because it was "the one". Its far more attractive to join "special" things. Everydays work is far more boring.

The german forum where im posting too, we have a themed thread every two weeks (regulary) - first times everyone posted, but now only every 6 times there is a thread, every people like to join (i.e. the theme called "jedis")
Thats not only because the theme, but people like to join special activities not on a regulary base - as mentioned before, most people wanne have fun, wanne stay spontaneus.


So i guess it would be best to keep themed threads rare. Then people will join just for a change.
Its all based on some general ideas, the same ideads as in every painting -> you have to contrast things people should focus on, but contrast everywhere is not working.
_________________
Lars G�tze

www.duracel.de Gallery

Detailling a speedpainting is nothing but speedpainting in detail.

[Ranath]

if I may dwell a bit on the realism being popular -matter, I'm personally slightly worried by this modern art thing which is "I didn't go for realism" while I'm certain most of modern artists don't have a clue of how to do realism. It just sucks, even design schools are now going to the modern route, and it's almost impossible to get proper education regarding realism, perspective etc. So I'm getting pretty short about this "blobs to canvas, market it as cool, call everyone who disagrees stupid idiot who knows nothing about art"..

"Everyone is entitled to pursue an own style and approach, but only after they mastered the basics and can be aware of all the choices."

so I don't think people were completely wrong suggesting that you'd sometimes take time to finish something, since nobody's actually seen a finished piece from you.


I'm definitely gonna join if a themed thread is gonna be made, so hope you balistic and others can do it (since Matthew apparently is not going to)

[AndyT]

Well ... I like images that are sketchy and to the point just as much as finished pieces.
I also like good abstract pieces.
I just thought you are serious about improving as an artist.
The comments like: "wow Matthew, you improved a lot" should motivate you, not the opposite.

If you work longer on one image and it turns out better than the others ... then no ...
IMO you have not improved then, but you will improve if you keep doing that from time to time.
The skill level of an artist shows ... no matter if you are looking at an abstract image, a sketch or a finished piece.
In all your recent images there are great areas and there is a lot of potential.
But there's always something that takes away from the images.

What I wrote are not rules that I made. I just tried to summarize how Sijun works.
Sijun is one of the forums where quality matters ... funstuff done by professionals is just amazing to look at.
I admit that I AM obsessed. Sorry ... but many others seem to be, too.
You are not ... so you are the only sane person?

You are not bending the rules in order to exaggerate something you want to show ...
you ignore good thoughts and theory in order to get more work done, more quickly.

If you paint and draw only for fun and not in order to improve then Sijun and Conceptart just are not the right places.
At least not if you don't want to get advice all the time.
If you go down the fine art route rather than trying to create something that everybody likes ...
then you need to find people who like what you do.
Just posting at Sijun and telling people to like it because it turned out the way you wanted it to turn out isn't going to work.

Btw. yes, I do know what I am looking for:
I want to improve slowly and have more control over the outcome of a painting/drawing session in the future.

About the activities:
I guess many people have great ideas for such activities.
You start a new one each time you are interested in something new.
If that is what you call "doing a lot for the community" then I don't know ...
maybe I just don't know enough about what your "works in the shadow" were.

You should be glad that people not only don't complain ... they also participate.
Now you complain that they don't participate enough!?

I started such threads when I was really depressed. I was too involved emotionally.
I think eyewoo wrote something that really helped me: try something different.
Play a browser game, go back to making music, learn how to program games, ... dunno what.
Probably what's going on here is bad for you emotionally. Try not to get an overdose of Sijun.
(Btw. I think antidepressant medication helped almost just as much)
_________________
http://www.conceptworld.org

[neff]

Craig Mullins! hehe, sorry, but i haven't seen this name here, like in every other important thread

Well, i'd like to see some new themed threads too, but more creative themes, not like "take this and that ref an repaint or copy it" More abstract themes are pushing me more to join in. I think most of us just don't have time and fun in doing thousands of boring practising pics. If we have some time, we want to do creative crazy stuff. That doesn't mean we don't learn from it
So i agree to the other meanings... you should just relax matthew.

ps: i want to see a finished piece by yours too, in your speedpaints you'll never learn the technics you need for a finished detailed work...
_________________
*