[travis travis]

wow, the weird thing is I'm used to this in the US but it scares me when it happens in other countries.

if anything it makes you remember: when there's a guy running around shooting people, it might make sense not to run away yourself but to try and get his gun. course, that's not easy, but really is it worth letting some sad sap destroy scores of human beings?

[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: travis travis ]

[Loki]

I wanna see how calm you stay when somebody runs around killing people. Do not forget - there are hardly any guns around in germany (in comparison to the US) so some people haven't even heard a gun fired before.

But yes, coming from his back and trying to get it seems to make sense - if you're willing to give your life.

But anyway - I'm really sorry that this happened again. My sympathy for everyone over there. This is awful.

[gLitterbug]

I don�t understand how shooting all those people makes sense to somebody. I mean if somebody would have treated him unfair and he would have beaten this person up, I might understand his motivation. But just running through the school shootin� random people is utter bullshit.

A real tragedy.

To the "get the gun" thingy,I think I�d rather die trying to get his gun than to get gunned in the back while running away, but as Loki said, one shouldn�t underestimate the surprise factor and fear.

[Rat]

Shooting people...I guess it would make sense to someone who was thinking totally irrationally. For example, someone who was constantly bullied by...well...everyone. Just one or two people, it's fairly easy to deal with, but an entire class/grade/school/whatever...

I don't know the whole story, or all of the details, so I don't know if the guy was bullied or whatever.

I think I'd rather die getting the gun than running...maybe. It just depends on the whole situation.

[Duckman2]

I am so sick of all of this shit . Now when I come home and turn on the news I say "what awful things have people done today?" From rioting in India, Maoist rebels in Nepal, 14 year lod suicide bombers, and rampaging assholes killing little girls and teachers you wonder how humanity has a chance for survival sometimes. Humans haven't changed at all since we showed up on earth. We have however made it easier to kill in mass.
My sympathy goes out to the families and friends of the victims and to the country of Germany.

[travis travis]

yeah I understand the surprise thing. what I was kind of getting at is that it's something people should keep in their mind beforehand in case they encounter a crisis: react. don't leave yourself no mental recourse.

of course my sympathies to the victims

[Impaler]

I can almost entirely guaranteee that anyone who says that they would be heroic and "get the gun" wouldn't when faced with the situation. Yeah, it makes utilitarian and majestic sense to give your life trying to save others, but there's a whole hell of a lot of difference between thinking out the cinematics and actually doing it when faced with the situation.

Not to mention, it's almost impossible to take a gun from someone who has the intent to kill. The time it takes to aim a gun and shoot is almost negligible; you'd be dead by the time you decided to run.

I actually thought about "taking the gun" a lot today, when I had heard the news. I also realized that doing so would pose a significant danger to myself. I wouldn't be endangered by gunmen; just imagine adrenaline-pumped S.W.A.T. officers running through a school, dead kids on the floor, when they run int a cafeteria and see you standing there with a Glock in your hand. You're prone to being shot, or severely assualted. Or, say, you somehow succcessfully wrestle the gun from your assailant, and you throw it on the floor. 3 hours later, and detectives find a 9mm semi-automatic with your fingerprints on it, with ballistics that correspond with the inflicted wounds of your peers. How would you defend yourself? "I took the law into my own hands and took a gun from Tom." You'd end up in jail.

The solution lies in all of this superficial preservation of innoncence that prevents us from sticking metal detectors and security systems in high schools. The entire Western civilization is still stuck in this 1950's nostalgia, where kids couldn't POSSIBLY carry guns to school, and insuring safety measures only turn kids into criminals. The truth is, kids are being shot because we're too afraid to admit that we're bad parents, bad friends, and bad people.

[pixelsoldier]

Impaler, that was VERY well said. I agree wholeheartedly.

Like you, I thought a lot today about what I would do in that situation. I thought about taking the gun from the shooter, and every other heroic situation I could imagine. I came to the realistic conclusion that I would likely hide in the best possible place I could find and pray to God I don't lose my life. Either that, or find some fuckin' way outta there when the gunman was on a different floor.

In any case, it was a tragic attack. My heart literally aches for the victims and their families.

Murder-suicides are the worst kind. The pathetic little bastard eliminates the possibility of any justice ever being served. Obviously that is the point of it all, but it frustrates me beyond belief. There is nothing I'd love more than to see a sick fuck like that try and fend for himself in the general population of any prison on Earth. He'd be beaten to death within hours. And I bet it'd hurt... a lot.

[Giant Hamster]

Heh...Go USA.

[Lapjos]

sad

[wayfinder]

it looks to me like in the us, the targets in school shottings are mostly pupils, while in germany, it's mostly teachers. correct me if i'm wrong please.

but if that was the case, what does it tell us about the situation and how to counter it?

[Lapjos]

It tells us that this guy was not bullied by his class mates.
In the local newspaper I read that he was described as an outgoing, open and socialising guy.
The person who said this also thought that it might have been 'a spur of the moment' decision due to him not being allowed to take part in the final exams (Abitur) for the second time.
Therefore he mostly shot teachers.

If it is true that this massacre was not planned then it wouldn't have taken place if he wouldn't had access to guns.
This guy was a member of the police sports club and he owned these weapons legally.
So he had the possibility to practise shooting and he could instantly access these weapons.
If he had owned these guns illegally he wouldn't have had the possibility to practise shooting and perhaps he would have got his hand broke after firing the first shot.

[Vesuvius]

it happened in japan a few years ago.

[Lunatique]

Why won't people in the media start realizing the problem is not guns, but people? If wouldn't have made any difference if these crazy kids showed up in school with home-made bombs, machete, bow & arrows...etc. If someone wants to kill, not having access to guns won't make any difference.

[[Shizo]]

When i was at school (highschool in USA) and Columbine shooting and the one after that, they had police come over and patrol the place (hehe) they also were thinking to bring in gun/drug finding dogs and implement "backpacks made of clear plastic". They didnt do backpacks, but they did bring in the dogs, and also gave "school ID" which we all had to wear and show every time we went into school for several weeks.
Then our history teacher decided to discuss and educate the kids about what's right/wrong (american kids are dumb) so they started this exciting conversation how people should've jumped the shooters, performed karate chops on them while they werent looking, then how its a good idea to implement metal detectors at the door etc. Then i stood up and asked, what are you talking about you moronic American people?! (heheh ok, i didnt say the last part, otherwise they would've jumped ME). In any case i said they could build a barricade around their school, setting up armor plates and arming all teachers with revolvers. WHAT THE HEL!!!! Hhehehe i said they could have gone to the mall, or the movies, and shoot everyone in there and why dont you try to solve the problem from iuts root and make sure those people dont "occur" and especially dont lead to such situations, instead of giving out kevlar vests to everyone?
So bah.. they listened and said "ummmk.. anyways. so Bobby, do you think that 20mm or 40mm vest would be better in a sense of armor-to-weight ratio?"

lol
i go sleep

[Coaster]

quote

Quote:

i go sleep

Good idea.

[Rat]

Aye...'tis.

[Giant Hamster]

heheh...

[Lapjos]

It's people with weapons who kill.

But it's guns that are responsible for the great number of victims. Remember, in most of these school shootings there was one guy
with guns who killed dozens of people.
With machetes, knives or whatever people have the possibility to run away, use chairs as shields etc. to prevent themselves from becoming victims of this idiot but with guns it is a total different situation.

I agree that it would be better if people like him didn't exist in our society, but I think this will never be the case. Nonetheless everything should be done on this side as well on the side of making guns available to normal citizens.

[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: Lapjos ]

[Giant Hamster]

Guess what law was also just passed?

Anyone under 17 cannot purchase/play a videogame deemed as violent or obscene without prior parental consent.

So, in a parents mind, "now that the law is taking care of our children we can be neglegent and not worry about what are children do because the court has taken care of that."

Lazy parenting, as simple as it sounds, is the ONLY problem with any society. When a child is born it knows nothing...so, even if it sounds like a scapegoat, it's all the parents fault if the child's views go askew.

Let's kill all the parents, let's kill em tonight.

PS: I LOVE it when stuff like this happens elsewhere than America...especially since anytime it happens here I hear floods of comments by foreigners such as, "You stupid Americans! Only in America would something like this happen! We're so peaceful over here. You and all the other gun-toting rednecks over there...Only in a America." =)

[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: Giant Hamster ]

[mumpizz]

[url=http://www.faz.net/IN/INtemplates/faznet/default.asp?tpl=faz/content.asp&rub={2A936BB1-8BB4-4BBA-8134-C9AD285C8C81}&doc={C04276B6-86CA-4DF7-9C22-BE29F2009EDB]http://www.faz.net/IN/INtemplates/faznet/default.asp?tpl=faz/content.asp&rub={2A936BB1-8BB4-4BBA-8134-C9AD285C8C81}&doc={C04276B6-86CA-4DF7-9C22-BE29F2009EDB[/url]

it's in german but can be said in two words: "blame counterstrike"

btw: and I did not know that you have to kill schoolgirls ("Schulm�dchen") in that game...

sowas h�tte ich von der FAZ wirklich nicht erwartet!

[horstenpeter]

Well....the FAZ, being a conservative newspaper will do everything to move public opinion into their direction I guess.
Read the TAZ instead

That said I do believe that games can play a role in shootings such as this, but they mostly influences the style of the killings.
What's far more important IMHO is to really teach people about the value of life.

[Nilwort]

After hearing about that on the news it got me thinking too...why would someone decide to shoot people? Put yourself into the shooters position...maybe you're going through some personal problems, and you don't have anyone to turn to, maybe you have friends and family...but can the person actually express his anger and frustration to them? We'll never know since that person along with the others he took with him are gone.

I honestly think that schoool shootings can be avoided if people weren't fucking itiots to eachother...all that hatred and anxiety has to pool up and collect somewhere right? Like in a potential shooters mind...maybe if he had someone who genuininly wanted to listen to vent these feelings of anger and frustration to he wouldn't have to express them by killing people?

quote

Quote:

In the local newspaper I read that he was described as an outgoing, open and socialising guy.

In my opinion....that doesn't mean anything at all...yeah, so he socializes and has an open personality...but does this say anything about his ability to cope with his own inner-demons? Or is this just a way to avoid them and appearing from an external perspective to be ok at the same time?

[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: Nilwort ]

[Awetopsy]

Im sorry, I have heard almost nothing about this. Did he die too? (I havent been around fo r afew days to watch the news or hear anything about it.)

My sincerest to all victims and families...

[horstenpeter]

Yeah, he locked himself in a room and shot himself when the police tried to enter.