[Martin Rebas]

This link was so much fun, I had to include it too:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/hovind.htm

/Martin

[wayfinder]

i think sacrelegious hit the nail on the head with his theory about those who are afraid that evolution might be a fact.

[SWANYDSPIN]

I like this quote:
One can take a nominal figure and say that humans have conceived of at least 10,000 gods. Christians say that 9,999 of these are false

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Originally posted by Awetopsy_MIA
Just because you see no evidence doesnt mean something doesnt exist. You've obviously never seena miracle. When you've seen blind eyes opened and deaf ears hearing, when you've seen complete cripples whos legs were like rubber stand up and run around a room completeley straightened out, then we can talk about evidence.

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true, but isnt it easier to believe in something within reasonable ratonality! everything and anything can be explained through science

I've never seen a miracle, and the ones your talking about cannot be proved, you only believe it because you heard about it. Science says that these cant happen because there is proof, I see no proof of any miracles.

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Originally posted by Veen
lol. Well the system of science is fine, but the thing is it's implemented by humans. And if you didn't know, humans can lie. There are deadlines to meet, papers to write, grants to win, and for the less dedicated scientists these can influence conclusions. (by the way I love science, it's just that I don't think evolution is very scientific.)

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I think you took what I meant differently, i meant scientific truth, such as water H20, or more apropriatly evidence of millions of years of evolution.

The existance of anything and everything is infinate, the universe is infinate, time is infinate, all we know is here and now, we live and die, nothing really matters.

[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: SWANYDSPIN ]

[edraket]

miracles
infinate

(click the pencil)

[SWANYDSPIN]

I suck at english, thanx

[Veen]

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i think sacrelegious hit the nail on the head with his theory about those who are afraid that evolution might be a fact.

It's the other way around. If evolution were true that = no god = no reason for morals = I can do anything I want. The only thing I answer to is society and if I'm smart I can get around that and if I'm rich or powerful I don't care what society thinks. If there is a God though, then I have to worry about hell because I just might end up there. Forever. I'm afraid of hell, not evolution.

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true, but isnt it easier to believe in something within reasonable ratonality! everything and anything can be explained through science

Only if science is advanced far enough in that area. We don't know everything and science isn't complete so we have theories.

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I think you took what I meant differently, i meant scientific truth, such as water H20, or more apropriatly evidence of millions of years of evolution.

There is no evidence for millions of years. Those dating methods rely on assumptions not on facts.

[edraket]

There is sheep that follow science and there is sheep that follow religion.
It all comes down to the same. They don't think beyond what they have been raised with.

[Martin Rebas]

To Veen:

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It's the other way around. If evolution were true that = no god = no reason for morals = I can do anything I want.

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One could just as well argue that if the christian god existed, people could commit any kinds of crimes and atrocities safely, knowing that God would forgive them when they repented on their deathbed.

Or that people become christians because they want to lead irresponsible lives - they follow the biblical god in a desperate attempt to pretend that the Squirrel God doesn't exist, because they don't want to follow his laws.

Then we have the age-old problem that if morality is what God says or does, then morality depends on God's whims, and a God who spends eternity torturing innocent children would be moral. The alternative is that morality exists independently of God.


I must also say find it somewhat disturbing that I've heard so many christians claim that they would rape, murder and steal if they thought there were no god. Speaking for myself, I just don't see the pleasure in it.

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If there is a God though, then I have to worry about hell because I just might end up there. Forever. I'm afraid of hell, not evolution.

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If I were you, I'd worry more about Carl, the Squirrel God who sends christians to hell, but likes atheists.

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We don't know everything and science isn't complete so we have theories.

The word "theory" means different things in an everyday context and a scientific context. In science, a "theory" means a well-tested system of explanations; there's no connotation of uncertainty. Quantum theory isn't waiting for more evidence, so it can become "Quantum fact".

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There is no evidence for millions of years [of evolution]. Those dating methods rely on assumptions not on facts.

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There is an abundance of evidence for hundreds of millions of years of evolution. Isochron dating methods are highly reliable and consistently show the age of Earth to be around 4.5 billion years.

Please read these until you understand them:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/isochron-dating.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html

Then explain what unwarranted assumptions isochron dating methods rely on.

/Martin

[balistic]

"Only if science is advanced far enough in that area. We don't know everything and science isn't complete so we have theories.

A theory is as good as fact. The heirarchy of the scientific method goes like this:

conjecture - idea

hypothesis - idea based on observed or collected data

theory - idea that has been repeatably substantiated by experimentation

Gravity and evolution are both theories. That means that we know, as sure as your butt is gravitationally bound to the Earth, that evolution has happened, and is happening presently. There have been literally hundreds of observed instances of speciation, outside of the fossil record, in living animals and plants.

[Awetopsy_MIA]

originally quoted by SWANYDSPIN

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you only believe it because you heard about it.

How do you know what Ive heard and seen? how do you know that I havent had miracles myself?

originally quoted by sacrelicious

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Awetopsy: About miracles. The power of human belief, of the human mind and spirit, is an incredible thing. We can do pretty amazing things if we just believe they're possible. Maybe people are healed by the power of God or the love of Christ, and maybe not. But don't think that Christianity's cornered the market on miracles, because it hasn't.

I beg to differ, but we have to differentiate between real 'on fire' christians and those who are merely nominal. Real Christians have miracles all the time, because they search out Gods Word and get ahold of Gods promise to them.

originally posted by edraket

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There is sheep that follow science and there is sheep that follow religion.
It all comes down to the same. They don't think beyond what they have been raised with.

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thats a pretty broad generalization. I've made it a point in my life to read up on other religions, as much science as makes sense to me and look at all angles. This whole discussion ended up being about religion vs science because alot of people lack knowledge. Maybe I am a mindless sheep... but at least Im working to be a well educated one.

[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: Awetopsy_MIA ]

[Giant Hamster]

I've already told you!!!! I'm GOD, Don't you think I'd know the truth?!?!

You act as though I'm joking...Casually correcting my grammar and passing over my comments.

Where's your faith? You say you believe in me, but you don't as I can see right now.
Why do you not believe that I could possibly be a human posting on a forum? Do I really have to be sitting up in a little cloud all day? You act as though it's funny...or that I'm mocking religion...when really it is you that isn't listening to the truth and continuing this silly conversation over NOTHING that is at fault.

You people are weak. I would rather not have you come up to heaven with me...It would just make the place stink.


You say you believe in God, but you don't even believe him when he talks right to you...

[Awetopsy_MIA]

quote:

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Originally posted by balistic:
conjecture - idea

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actually Websters defines conjecture as this:
"An opinion, or judgment, formed on defective or presumptive evidence; probable inference; surmise; guess; suspicion. "

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hypothesis - idea based on observed or collected data

again websters says:
"A supposition; a proposition or principle which is supposed or taken for granted, in order to draw a conclusion or inference for proof of the point in question; something not proved, but assumed for the purpose of argument, or to account for a fact or an occurrence;"

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theory - idea that has been repeatably substantiated by experimentation

Websters:
"A doctrine, or scheme of things, which terminates in speculation or contemplation, without a view to practice; hypothesis; speculation."

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Gravity and evolution are both theories. That means that we know, as sure as your butt is gravitationally bound to the Earth, that evolution has happened, and is happening presently. There have been literally hundreds of observed instances of speciation, outside of the fossil record, in living animals and plants.

Actually gravity isnt a theory any longer because there is substantial proof. Mostly what you are talking about here is micro-evolution (which is actually purely adaptation) and Yes there have been hundreds of documented cases, such as the moth inthe industrial revolution etc. But even sceintists who speak at talkorigins, admit that there is no conclusive proof of one species becoming an entirely different species.

[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: Awetopsy_MIA ]

[edraket]

Awetopsy.
I'm sorry, what I was trying to say was that some people just appear to be very stuck in the way of thinking they have been raised with. And they seem unable to see beyond that.

[Martin Rebas]

Once again, this time from Merriam-Webster Online:

"Main Entry: the�o�ry

6 a : a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b : an unproved assumption : CONJECTURE"

The above is the sense in which the word is usually used in everyday conversations.


"3 : the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art <music theory>

5 : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <wave theory of light>"

And this what the word "theory" means when scientists speak about the "theory of evolution".

/Martin

[klaivu]

What I ( tired individual ) thought today ( in rusty english ) :

Memes are the genes of ideas. The use of spoon and concepts of beauty are memes. Interacting human minds form an ecosphere of memes. Their living space is limited, and though different types of memes can peacefully coexist, the ones that are different interpretations of a single idea have to compete.

Organizations and governments can be thought as multicellular " memetic beings " : they need several minds to exist, and these minds are used for different tasks much like organs. Even though these tasks are mostly physical of nature, they need to be viewed from the memetic point of view. Food production, education, armed forces etc. are all keeping the organization alive, which means they are basically memetic things.

Organized religions are natural competitors. A viable religion, as any being, is resistant to its competitors, fast and agressive multiplier and effective in accomodating to new circumstances.

Religion implies its dogma to be accepted as " basic truth ", as a basis to build the entire view of the world on. This makes the other religions' attacks against the believers view on the world easier to repel.

Open minds are new grounds to expand to, and a viable religion has to imply converting. Unconvertable minds trying to spread their memes are a threat a religion has to deal with.

Evolution affects religions: christianity, for example, has lost, replaced or changed many of it's memes in changing circumstances during centuries. Today most christians thinks that the earth is round rather than flat, that blood circulates in veins and that the earth goes around the sun. Like beings, religions began as single-meme ideas, assimilating new memes to them through the centuries, evolving to the complex organizations they are today.

[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: klaivu ]

[klaivu]

Oh yeah, some wacky bible quotations for you all :

Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ...."
..........Ephesians 6:5

"Bid slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect..."
..........Titus 2:9

"He whose testicles are crushed or whose male member is cut off shall not enter the assembly of the Lord."
..........Deuteronomy 23:1

"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
..........Numbers 31:17 (Moses)

"Samar'ia shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open."
..........Hosea 13:16

"But if the thing is true, that the tokens of virginity were not found in the young woman, then you shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones..."
..........Deuteronomy 22:20

[Unsound]

quote:

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Originally posted by Unsound:
If a person ignores other portions of the Bible and builds his belief around a favorite rendering of a particular verse, then what he believes really reflects, not the Word of God, but his own ideas and perhaps those of another imperfect human.

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*cough*

[Cleoric]

I don't know if this has been posted, as I'm not going to go through 5 pages of this when I've already debated it too much in the past, but... to really simplify things...

If you don't believe in God and I do, and there isn't a God, then we're both screwed, but if you don't believe in God and I do, and there IS a God, then you're the only one that is screwed...

[Unsound]

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Originally posted by Cleoric:
If you don't believe in God and I do, and there isn't a God, then we're both screwed, but if you don't believe in God and I do, and there IS a God, then you're the only one that is screwed...

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*lol* I like that...

[Awetopsy]

Somehow i get the idea there is a challenge here... these are fairly complicated issues.
originally posted by klaivu:

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Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ...."
..........Ephesians 6:5

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actually the word "slave" here is really translated as "servant""A person who gives service to another" in the same way we would be an employee. "dunno where you got a translation that says "slave"

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"Bid slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect..."
..........Titus 2:9

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Entirely misquoted. Again the "slave" is actually "Servant" and the command is to please their masters in all things; as in being devoted to their boss.

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"He whose testicles are crushed or whose male member is cut off shall not enter the assembly of the Lord."
..........Deuteronomy 23:1

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Misquoted again. the actual verse says: "He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD". It was a very ancient practice among many pagan nations for the priests of heathen dieties to be eunichs, and for parents to mutilate thier children with the view of training them for the such preist hood or for serving kings and other men of importance. God forbade such mutilation of children in Isreal, as no animal was fit for sacrifice if not perfect, so no man was qualified to enter the congregation if mutilated. This was Gods way of preventing castration in Isreal.

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Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
..........Numbers 31:17 (Moses)
&
"Samar'ia shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open."
..........Hosea 13:16

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These are taken out of context. This comand was essentially a war measures act. It was common for nations to try and conquer each other and Isreal under its circumstances was forced to fight for its land... (sound familiar?) So the command was to kill all the young boys too (including the carrying mothers) so that they would not grow up to take revenge. But the virgins were to be taken alive and protected under Isreal. Not as sex slaves as some might argue, because God demanded Sexual purity. Always has.

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"But if the thing is true, that the tokens of virginity were not found in the young woman, then you shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones..."
..........Deuteronomy 22:20

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this is a little more complicated. Essentially it is that God demanded sexual purity in the nation of Isreal because Isreal had the responsibility of carrying the bloodline of the Messiah. the messiahs bloodline was to be pure, and if somebody from another nation got in the mix, that could taint the bloodline. So, the penalty for adultery and fornicaton (sex before marriage) was death, due to the fact that Isreal was Nomadic at the time.

These are all Extreme issues you've pointed out from the Old Testament, and you have to understand the culture then was not like it is today. And you have to realize that the Old testament was a system that was done away with when Christ died and the new covenant (or new testament) came to effect. The new testament ones you've pointed at are as Ive already stated above.

[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: Awetopsy ]

[Martin Rebas]

quote:

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I don't know if this has been posted, as I'm not going to go through 5 pages of this when I've already debated it too much in the past, but... to really simplify things...
If you don't believe in God and I do, and there isn't a God, then we're both screwed, but if you don't believe in God and I do, and there IS a God, then you're the only one that is screwed...

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But which god? Above, I mention Carl, the Squirrel God who sends christians to hell, but likes atheists. One has to take that sort of a thing into account.

For that matter, is it actually possible to believe in something - anything - out of sheer will? I think it would require serious brainwashing and/or doublethink to make, say, the existence of Shiva seem plausible to me.

And would a god even want you to sacrifice your integrity and believe in him/her only as some kind of afterlife insurance? Which god would be pleased to see that people believe in him/her out of sheer opportunism?

/Martin

[Martin Rebas]

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Entirely misquoted. Again the "slave" is actually "Servant" and the command is to please their masters in all things; as in being devoted to their boss.

I've often seen christians argue that what's called a "slave" in the OT wasn't like we imagine slavery; that it's more like being an employee, like you say.

I find that hard to believe because of bible verses like Exodus 21:20, which says that you can beat your "employee" as much as you like without punishment unless he dies the same day, because after all, he's your money.

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These are all Extreme issues you've pointed out from the Old Testament, and you have to understand the culture then was not like it is today.

I've always found this to be a very weak defense of the bizarre laws in the OT, which recommend the death penalty for most everything, including gathering wood on Saturday. Getting killed by stoning persumably hurt as much then as it does now.

To me, it seems like your arguments could apply equally well to the Taliban's laws in Afghanistan: "They weren't that bad; you have to take into account that the culture then was not like it is today, and, well, anyway, the laws are better now".

/Martin

[Giant Hamster]

Awetopsy: because God demanded Sexual purity. Always has.


I don't demand sexual purity. I like sex.

[sacrelicious]

How are nonbelievers screwed if there isn't a God? As far as I can tell, things would pretty much be the same for them.

[Veen]

I'm certain there are people who became christians just to get away with living an irresponsible life. I'd say they are rare though, because becoming a christian means believing God came to earth as Jesus and died in your place to pay the penalty for sin. People who believe that tend to want to please God. People who don't believe that, aren't christians even if they say they are.

And yes those people will be forgiven. If thats all thats holding you back, I encourage you to be one of those people. Far better that, than to disobey God entirely.

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Theory != Fact. Theory is NOT as good as fact. Quantum theory is not called Quantum Law... it's called Quantum Theory. A Theory is a solid idea with a lot of tests that back it up, but has not yet been proven. If it's proven correct it becomes a "law". If it's proven incorrect it gets scrapped. And you can't disprove one theory with another theory. Gravity is not a theory, it's experienced every day.

About those pages you linked Martin. Do a search for 'assumption' or 'assume' on the first one. Yes a lot are just to simplify examples and a few are explained, but some are unexplained. I'm not going to take the time to argue specifics.

Second link : here's a quote

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2.1 Constancy of radioactive decay rates.
Rates of radiometric decay (the ones relevant to radiometric dating) are thought to be based on rather fundamental properties of matter, such as the probability per unit time that a certain particle can "tunnel" out of the nucleus of the atom. The nucleus is well-insulated and therefore is relatively immune to larger-scale effects such as pressure or temperature.

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This section, 2.1, is trying to say that the assumptions made in all radiometric dating methods are 'neither "unjustified" nor "assumptions" in most cases' . Note the very first sentence : 'Rates of radiometric decay ... are thought to be based on ...'

So they're justifying one assumption with a different assumption? Yes they are nice ideas, well thought out, and well tested, but they aren't proven. Evolution theory is littered with this type of flawed reasoning and circular thinking.

Besides, recorded history (excluding the Bible) goes back about how much? 3000-4000 years? So the assumptions based off of 4000 years of 'data' are supposed to be used to calculate 4.5 billion years? Go ahead and figure out what percentage 4000 is of 4.5 billion.

Just the fact that this stuff is debated all over the world by better minds than you or I is evidence that these theories are not as solid as some would like to believe.

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Excellent point Cleoric, thats exactly what I usually contribute to these types of threads. I decided to get more involved with this one but I think I'll be withdrawing now. We've begun the circlular pattern.

Heres some others klaivu :
"Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,"
-- II Peter 3:3.

"For this they willingly are ignorant, ..."
-- II Peter 3:5.

[Martin Rebas]

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A Theory is a solid idea with a lot of tests that back it up, but has not yet been proven. If it's proven correct it becomes a "law".

No, a theory stays a theory, no matter how much evidence there is. In science, if something is a large, well-tested system of explanations, it's generally called a theory; if it can be summed up neatly in an equation, it's called a "law".

I found an excellent web page about it here: http://wilstar.net/theories.htm

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This section, 2.1, is trying to say that the assumptions made in all radiometric dating methods are 'neither "unjustified" nor "assumptions" in most cases' . Note the very first sentence : 'Rates of radiometric decay ... are thought to be based on ...'

So they're justifying one assumption with a different assumption? Yes they are nice ideas, well thought out, and well tested, but they aren't proven. Evolution theory is littered with this type of flawed reasoning and circular thinking.

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Radioactive decay generates heat. If the rates had been as much higher as is required by a young-earth scenario, then Earth would be a radioactive molten wasteland and the oceans would be vaporized.

/Martin

[Giant Hamster]

Sac: How are nonbelievers screwed if there isn't a God? As far as I can tell, things would pretty much be the same for them.

Dude, I'm right here.

[klaivu]

awetopsy, how do you take rape, genocide and slavery out of context ?

>Evolution theory is littered with this type of flawed reasoning and circular thinking.

But the bible is true because god says so, in the bible ? It has no more divine validity than the dogma of say, thor or odin.

You claim that blind faith in a book of wild tales, half-truths and lies put together thousands of years ago by beggars, shamans and wanderers is more valid than empiric knowledge.

You are not debating on common grounds when you pull things like "supernatural water" out of your sleeve. You have that god-thing in your head as a base to build every perception and assumption of the world on, which makes arguing based on facts impossible.

You demand proof, while you are the one asserting that your god exists. Making a positive assertion requires you to prove it.

[SWANYDSPIN]

quote

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but if you don't believe in God and I do, and there IS a God, then you're the only one that is screwed...

Why am I screwed, what have I done.

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How do you know what Ive heard and seen? how do you know that I havent had miracles myself?

I dont know, but if you have, prove it. why would god make someone blind then give them sight?


Does believing in god mean believing in the bible?

Who created god?

[Giant Hamster]

Who created god?

I have a mother, just like everyone else, you know.

And who created her? Well...which came first: The chicken or the egg?