[Rat]

Strange. Coaster started this discussion with a question just as unanswerable as "why is there air?"

[Coaster]

Rat - Air is the name for earth's atmosphere, no matter what there would be 'air'. Its just a bunch of gasses that are gravitationaly attracted to our planet..

the_monkey - Sorry, the context was working against me, I actually meant that last post to be for the 'general public' who really seem to beleive that way. I'm still god though, and I even published the bible (ya ya so what if it was on a post it written in sharpie)

Rat again - Why do people ask rhetorical questions out loud?

[Unsound]

(sorry for the long post, but it's worth the read)

Like I have said before.

Hindu leader Mohandas Gandhi is quoted as saying that by following its teachings, "we shall have solved the problems . . . of the whole world." Noted anthropologist Ashley Montagu wrote that the modern findings about the psychological importance of love are only "a validation" of this sermon.

These people were referring to Jesus' Sermon on the Mount (found in book of Matthew, chapters 5 to 7). Gandhi also said that "the teaching of the Sermon was meant for each and every one of us." Professor Hans Dieter Betz recently noted: "The influences exerted by the Sermon on the Mount generally far transcend the borderlines of Judaism and Christianity, or even Western culture." He added that this sermon has "a peculiarly universalistic appeal."

Who Are Truly Happy?

Everyone wants to be happy. Realizing this, Jesus begins his Sermon on the Mount by describing those who are truly happy. As we can imagine, this immediately captures the attention of his vast audience. And yet his opening words must seem contradictory to many.

Directing his comments to his disciples, Jesus begins: "Happy are you poor, because yours is the kingdom of God. Happy are you who hunger now, because you will be filled. Happy are you who weep now, because you will laugh. Happy are you whenever men hate you . . . Rejoice in that day and leap, for, look! your reward is great in heaven."

This is Luke's account of the introduction of Jesus' sermon. But according to Matthew's record, Jesus also says that the mild-tempered, the merciful, the pure in heart, and the peaceable are happy. These are happy, Jesus notes, because they will inherit the earth, they will be shown mercy, they will see God, and they will be called sons of God.

What Jesus means by being happy, however, is not simply being jovial or mirthful, as when one is having fun. True happiness is deeper, carrying the thought of contentment, a sense of satisfaction and fulfillment in life.

So those who are truly happy, Jesus shows, are people who recognize their spiritual need, are saddened by their sinful condition, and come to know and serve God. Then, even if they are hated or persecuted for doing God's will, they are happy because they know they are pleasing God and will receive his reward of everlasting life.

However, many of Jesus' listeners, just like some people today, believe that being prosperous and enjoying pleasures is what makes a person happy. Jesus knows otherwise. Drawing a contrast that must surprise many of his listeners, he says:

"Woe to you rich persons, because you are having your consolation in full. Woe to you who are filled up now, because you will go hungry. Woe, you who are laughing now, because you will mourn and weep. Woe, whenever all men speak well of you, for things like these are what their forefathers did to the false prophets."

What does Jesus mean? Why do having riches, laughingly pursuing pleasures, and enjoying the plaudits of men bring woe? It is because when a person has and cherishes these things, then service to God, which alone brings true happiness, is excluded from his life. At the same time, Jesus did not mean that simply being poor, hungry, and mournful makes a person happy. Often, however, such disadvantaged persons may respond to Jesus' teachings, and they thereby are blessed with true happiness.

Next, addressing his disciples, Jesus says: "You are the salt of the earth." He does not mean, of course, that they literally are salt. Rather, salt is a preservative. A large heap of it lay near the altar at Jehovah's temple, and priests officiating there used it to salt the offerings.

The disciples of Jesus are "the salt of the earth" in that they have a preserving influence on people. Indeed, the message they bear will preserve the lives of all who respond to it! It will bring into the lives of such persons the qualities of permanence, loyalty, and faithfulness, preventing any spiritual and moral decay in them.

"You are the light of the world," Jesus tells his disciples. A lamp is not put under a basket but is set on a lampstand, so Jesus says: "Likewise let your light shine before men." Jesus' disciples do this by their public witnessing, as well as by serving as shining examples of conduct that accords with Bible principles.

A High Standard for His Followers

The religious leaders consider Jesus a transgressor of God's Law and recently have even conspired to kill him. So as Jesus continues his Sermon on the Mount, he explains: "Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill."

Jesus has the highest regard for God's Law and encourages others to have such also. In fact, he says: "Whoever, therefore, breaks one of these least commandments and teaches mankind to that effect, he will be called 'least' in relation to the kingdom of the heavens," meaning that such a person would not get into the Kingdom at all.

Far from disregarding God's Law, Jesus condemns even the attitudes that contribute to a person's breaking it. After noting that the Law says, "You must not murder," Jesus adds: "However, I say to you that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice."

Since continuing wrathful with an associate is so serious, perhaps even leading to murder, Jesus illustrates the extent to which one should go to achieve peace. He instructs: "If, then, you are bringing your [sacrificial] gift to the altar and you there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar, and go away; first make your peace with your brother, and then, when you have come back, offer up your gift."

Turning attention to the seventh of the Ten Commandments, Jesus continues: "You heard that it was said, 'You must not commit adultery.'" However, Jesus condemns even the steady attitude toward adultery. "I say to you that everyone that keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Jesus is not here speaking merely about a passing immoral thought but about 'keeping on looking.' Such continued looking arouses passionate desire, which, if opportunity affords, can culminate in adultery. How can a person prevent this from happening? Jesus illustrates how extreme measures may be necessary, saying: "If, now, that right eye of yours is making you stumble, tear it out and throw it away from you. . . . Also, if your right hand is making you stumble, cut it off and throw it away from you."

People are often willing to sacrifice a literal limb that is diseased in order to save their lives. But according to Jesus, it is even more vital to 'throw away' anything, even something as precious as an eye or a hand, to avoid immoral thinking and actions. Otherwise, Jesus explains, such persons will be thrown into Gehenna (a burning rubbish heap near Jerusalem), which symbolizes eternal destruction.

Jesus also discusses how to deal with people who cause injury and offense. "Do not resist him that is wicked," is his counsel. "But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him." Jesus does not mean that a person should not defend himself or his family if attacked. A slap is not delivered to hurt another physically but, rather, to insult. So, what Jesus is saying is that if anyone tries to provoke a fight or an argument, either by literally slapping with an open hand or by stinging with insulting words, it would be wrong to retaliate.

After drawing attention to God's law to love one's neighbor, Jesus states: "However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those persecuting you." Providing a powerful reason for doing so, he adds: "[Thus] you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good."

Jesus concludes this portion of his sermon by admonishing: "You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Jesus does not mean that people can be perfect in the absolute sense. Rather, they can, by imitating God, expand their love to embrace even their enemies. Luke's parallel account records Jesus' words: "Continue becoming merciful, just as your Father is merciful."

Prayer, and Trust in God

As Jesus proceeds with his sermon, he condemns the hypocrisy of people who make a show of their supposed godliness. "When you go making gifts," he says, "do not blow a trumpet ahead of you, just as the hypocrites do."

"Also," Jesus continues, "when you pray, you must not be as the hypocrites; because they like to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the broad ways to be visible to men." Rather, he instructs: "When you pray, go into your private room and, after shutting your door, pray to your Father who is in secret." Jesus himself said public prayers, so he is not condemning these. What he is denouncing are prayers that are said to impress listeners and draw their admiring compliments.

Jesus further counsels: "When praying, do not say the same things over and over again, just as the people of the nations do." Jesus does not mean that repetition in itself is wrong. Once, he himself repeatedly used "the same word" when praying. But what he disapproves of is the saying of memorized phrases "over and over again," the way those do who finger beads as they repeat their prayers by rote.

To help his listeners pray, Jesus provides a model prayer that includes seven petitions. The first three rightly give recognition to God's sovereignty and his purposes. They are requests for God's name to be sanctified, his Kingdom to come, and his will to be done. The remaining four are personal requests, namely, for daily food, for forgiveness of sins, not to be tempted beyond one's endurance, and to be delivered from the wicked one.

Going on, Jesus addresses the snare of putting undue emphasis on material possessions. He urges: "Stop storing up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break in and steal." Not only are such treasures perishable but they build up no merit with God.

Hence, Jesus says: "Rather, store up for yourselves treasures in heaven." This is done by putting God's service first in your life. Nobody can take away the merit thus accumulated with God or its grand reward. Then Jesus adds: "Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

Further addressing the snare of materialism, Jesus gives the illustration: "The lamp of the body is the eye. If, then, your eye is simple, your whole body will be bright; but if your eye is wicked, your whole body will be dark." The eye that functions properly is to the body like a lighted lamp in a dark place. But to see correctly, the eye must be simple, that is, it must focus on one thing. An out-of-focus eye leads to a mistaken estimate of things, to putting material pursuits ahead of service to God, with the result that the "whole body" becomes dark.

Jesus climaxes this matter with the powerful illustration: "No one can slave for two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick to the one and despise the other. You cannot slave for God and for Riches."

After giving this counsel, Jesus assures his listeners that they need not be anxious about their material needs if they put God's service first. "Observe intently the birds of heaven," he says, "because they do not sow seed or reap or gather into storehouses; still your heavenly Father feeds them." Then he asks: "Are you not worth more than they are?"

Next, Jesus points to the lilies of the field and notes that "not even Solomon in all his glory was arrayed as one of these. If, now," he continues, "God thus clothes the vegetation of the field, . . . will he not much rather clothe you, you with little faith?" Therefore Jesus concludes: "Never be anxious and say, 'What are we to eat?' or, 'What are we to drink?' or, 'What are we to put on?' . . . For your heavenly Father knows you need all these things. Keep on, then, seeking first the kingdom and his righteousness, and all these other things will be added to you."

The Way to Life

The way to life is that of abiding by Jesus' teachings. But this is not easy to do. The Pharisees, for example, tend to judge others harshly, and likely many imitate them. So as Jesus continues his Sermon on the Mount, he gives this admonition: "Stop judging that you may not be judged; for with what judgment you are judging, you will be judged."

It is dangerous to follow the lead of the overly critical Pharisees. According to Luke's account, Jesus illustrates this danger by saying: "A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Both will tumble into a pit, will they not?"

Being too critical of others, magnifying their faults and picking on them, is a serious offense. So Jesus asks: "How can you say to your brother, 'Allow me to extract the straw from your eye'; when, look! a rafter is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First extract the rafter from your own eye, and then you will see clearly how to extract the straw from your brother's eye."

This does not mean that Jesus' disciples are to use no discernment in connection with other people, for he says: "Do not give what is holy to dogs, neither throw your pearls before swine." The truths from God's Word are holy. They are like figurative pearls. But if some individuals, who are like dogs or swine, show no appreciation for these precious truths, Jesus' disciples should leave those people and seek out those who are more receptive.

Although Jesus has discussed prayer earlier in his Sermon on the Mount, he now stresses the need to persist in it. "Keep on asking," he urges, "and it will be given you." To illustrate God's readiness to answer prayers, Jesus asks: "Who is the man among you whom his son asks for bread-he will not hand him a stone, will he? . . . Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him?"

Next Jesus provides what has become a famous rule of conduct, commonly called the Golden Rule. He says: "All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must likewise do to them." Living by this rule involves positive action in doing good to others, treating them as you want to be treated.

That the way to life is not easy is revealed by Jesus' instruction: "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."

The danger of being misled is great, so Jesus warns: "Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to you in sheep's covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves." Even as good trees and bad trees can be recognized by their fruits, Jesus notes, false prophets can be recognized by their conduct and teachings.

Going on, Jesus explains that it is not simply what a person says that makes him His disciple but what he does. Some people claim that Jesus is their Lord, but if they are not doing the will of his Father, he says: "I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness."

Finally, Jesus gives the memorable conclusion to his sermon. He says: "Everyone that hears these sayings of mine and does them will be likened to a discreet man, who built his house upon the rock-mass. And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and lashed against that house, but it did not cave in, for it had been founded upon the rock-mass."

On the other hand, Jesus declares: "Everyone hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them will be likened to a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand. And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and struck against that house and it caved in, and its collapse was great."

(excerpt from the book The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived)

[sacrelicious]

"Why is there air?" is hardly an unanswerable question. "What is religion for anyways?" is equally answerable, although obviously not in the same manner as the former query.

P.S. I just bought a cool shirt that says, "JESUS IS COMING--- EVERYBODY LOOK BUSY."

[Basse_Ex]

Well, if it is such an easy question, then WHY is there air?

(PS! Very sound post, Unsound... That there Jesus was a pretty swell guy... almost makes me wanna be a christian... but most of all it makes me wanna finish reading the Bible... I made it through the whole of the old testament, so it shouldn't be that hard).

[Rat]

Even if someone answers the "unanswerable" question of "why is there air", you'll eventually come to the question no one has ever, and will ever be able to answer: "exactly why was the universe formed". It's a neverending chain of questions. Example:

"Why is there air?"
"Because_________."
"Why is there _________?"
"Because __________."
etc...until you get to
"Because the universe was formed making it that way."
"Why was the universe formed?"
"Ummmm."

Note the "why" instead of "how."

But I think only an annoying person and a determined person could actually sit through that session without screaming.


Unsound - I intend to finish reading your post, but what I read of it now was interesting.

[Coaster]

I tyhin I'll just beyh the colse book notes version of unsounds post.

Rat, I'd like to have a disxussion like that with you sometume.

[Giant Hamster]

Look, you're all reading way too far into the bible! It was a book written long ago by my fans in Jerusalem...it's meerly fan-fiction. The whole, "Noah's Ark" thing was blown way out of porportion. The Boat got ontop of the mountiain because my friend Noah had built it up there as just a hobby thing...wasted two summers up there. So, when he got home, OOOH was his bitch mad. She smacked him up so bad. So he made up the story about how it was going to flood...and well...he came to me for some help. What could I do? he bribed me with 6 pack of beer and a go with his daughter...so, I flooded the damn place. Hah! Man, those were some good times.

[the_monkey]

einstien also said something along these lines. God is good, because the universe acts orderly. (thats probally way off, but thats the jist of it)

[balistic]

The Einstein quote:

"God does not play dice with the universe."

He said this in response to the then-new field of quantum theory, which deals heavily in randomness and probability. Einstein firmly believed, until his death, that quantum theory was wrong.

He didn't want to believe in that which couldn't be accurately and repeatably predicted.

Even before his death, there was mounting evidence in favor of quantum mechanics, and now it is widely accepted as a model of subatomic physics.

[Lunatique]

Giant Hamster- Bwahahahaha! Good one! I know I shouldn't laugh, but that was just too funny.

[PlantMan]

in asteriods, if you fly off one side of the screen you appear at the opposite side again. Apparently space is the same. Einstein or someone said that if you had a powerfull enough telescope you could look into space and see the back of your head. So where is there room for God? Is he trapped in the 11th dimension? Our universe is a big computer game, devised by bill gates and peter molyneux and .../thats/ the truth.

[SolarC]

I feel that it's quite much the same thing with religions and drugs. Some of them can be good for healthy minded adults, responsibly and intelligently used ofcourse. Just people who have serious mental difficulties or maybe people in general who have serious problems getting their lives into their own control, (maybe nowadays most of the people in this fucked up world) can never use drugs or religions safely. It is just too easy to abaddon all your responsibilities, morality and selfcontrol (which I think are very important values that are scorned by the society) and just let the drugs, society or the religion take care of them for you.

See heroine narcomans for an example, most of those who get away from their heroine addiction change it into a fanatic belief and usually go nuts about it.
I don't think it's a step to any better direction they just have another thing to
fuck their minds with and a method to continue avoiding their humane responsibilities, selfthinking and feeling.

To make it short I think religions (like drugs) are very unhealthy if they are used to compensate lack of humanity.

[Steven Stahlberg]

From heroine addict to religous fanatic? I say good for them, lucky bastards to get out in time.

If you don't think there's a difference between them, just see "Trainspotting". I'll take a Jehova's Witness as babysitter anyday, rather than one of those crackheads.

[social drone]

impaler: Ezekiel 28

[rubbersharkman]

Just browsed through the comments, and thought I would offer a bit of my own.

Sounds like a lot of the people with a negative attitude toward religion have been offended by one of the the thousands of them. Kind of like saying, "music is awful because I don't like Yanni"

It would be silly to say that any of the religions don't contain truth, but also silly to say that more than one of them could be completely true.

The way I see it every relgion offers promises on conditions, and the truth of them relies on whether or not those promises hold true.

Just a few thoughts...

[Giant Hamster]

Lunatique: Yeah, I love that story...I think I've probally told it every day since it happened. It was just so Me-Damned funny! So why not laugh? It's a great story...I really wish they wouldn't have left off the other parts in the bible though. Really bites my holy ass how they like to switch things around to make me seem like such a wrathful guy. I'm really nice a guy...just a bit misunderstood. =\

Edit: Whoop! See: Even I, God, make spelling errors. Fucking hangover.

[ April 02, 2002: Message edited by: Giant Hamster ]

[SolarC]

Steven,

I agree that narcomans are more unpredictable than religious fanatics plus heroine causes much physical problems religions don't. The point I tried to make was just that for most of the people both drugs and religion can be very corrupting pretty much in the same way.

Like if we take a look at christianity just for an example, the primary message of jesus was a message of love, tolerance and antimaterialism. How many fanatic christians do you see really living these values? Too many just use the religion as a set of rules or laws to transfer their own moral responsibilities to the religion and stop self-feeling and thinking.

On the other hand, if used wisely, I think that spirituality and religion can be very good way to develop some things in yourself and in my opinion the same goes for quite many of the drugs. (well probably not heroine though) Most of the people just don't know how to use them properly or how to live their lives properly if you ask me.

[rubbersharkman]

If people would obey the laws of chastity taught by most religions (basically that we should only have sex with the one we are married to, and no one else) society would be a lot better off. AIDS and other std's would be very limited if not completely eliminated. Teen pregnancy and Abortions would be much less common. Society wouldn't be plagued by pornography because people wouldn't use it. We wouldn't have rape, we wouldn't have incest, or child abuse. The list goes on, and that's just one commandment.

So many people think these days that rules and laws are wrong if they make you change the way you live, but true laws of God, (and there can be much debate as to what these are, surely there are many laws in many religions that are of man and not god) are for our good, and one need only to honestly try them to understand their virtue in our lives.

Just some thoughts

[balistic]

"Society wouldn't be plagued by pornography"

I'm not seeing how that relates to abstainence, unless you're greatly broadening the defintion of sex.

"We wouldn't have rape"

A wife can be raped by her husband.

I'm also in Utah sharkman. This is a place where a majority of the population believes in chastity until marriage. Its also a place where I see countless kids getting married straight out of highschool, having a kid at 18 or 19, and getting deeply entrenched in building a family before they've had any chance to explore their individuality or realize their potential. Its a cycle that I think explains why this state has three times the national average of per-capita anti-depressant usage.

Is married teenage pregnancy really that much better than unmarried teenage pregnancy? Is a single 25-year-old girl with a somewhat active sex life but no kids in a better or worse position than one of the same age who's already married with three children? The former is breaking a commandment, but she's also the only one of the two that could become a doctor. The latter might be stuck with her highschool sweetheart who's turned into an alcaholic prick and who barely makes enough money to put food on the table.

In principle, morally, chastity often makes sense. However, biologically, its not feasible. As an example, it is often that a woman carries a child fathered by a man other than her husband. While this behavior is morally incorrect, it is often biologically advantageous. If a female is paired with a caring, nurturing male, but that male is unhealthy or unattractive, it is in evolution's best interest for her to have an affair with a more genetically fit man, while allowing the nurturer to help her raise the resultant offspring.

It is emotionally frustrating that we have these biological reasons for infidelity, but they exist, and no amount of dogma can ever erase those factors from our genes. In short, asking humans not to sometimes behave like the gene propegators we are is extremely optimistic.

[ April 03, 2002: Message edited by: balistic ]

[balistic]

"Steven Stahlberg, just a note: most Sceintists from both creation and evolution camps concede that the earth was covered in water at one point. They have found sea dwelling crusteation fossils at the tops of some very high peaks."

That doesn't mean the mountain was covered with water, it means that the rock that formed the mountain used to be a seabed, and was slowly pushed up over time by plate tectonics. The Himilayas are still rising at a rate of centimeters per year.

There isn't enough water in the world to flood the Earth. If you melted both ice caps, and forced all the clouds to liquify, you'd raise global sea level by less than ten feet.

If you get to be all anal about the Bible, I'll be picky about science

[Awetopsy]

Anal about the bible? You critisise it and then call whoever defends it, logically, anal? yeesh and you tell others to be open-minded.

quote

Quote:

you'd raise global sea level by less than ten feet.

Id like to see numbers on that...

by your own argument of plate tectonics it seems that my argument isnt wrong either.

IF you took all the mass that mountains currently form and laid it flat it would displace the water so enormously that the entire globe would be covered in water. So its not entirely impossible.

Some mountains are mere thousands of years old, and the fossils found thereon are carbondated within thousands of years also.

(interestingly there arent enough fossils on those mountains to suggest that they were submerged for long periods of time either)

[ April 03, 2002: Message edited by: Awetopsy ]

[balistic]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Awetopsy:
Id like to see numbers on that...

by your own argument of plate tectonics it seems that my argument isnt wrong either.

IF you took all the mass that mountains currently form and laid it flat it would displace the water so enormously that the entire globe would be covered in water. So its not entirely impossible.

Some mountains are mere thousands of years old, and the fossils found thereon are carbondated within thousands of years also.

(interestingly there arent enough fossils on those mountains to suggest that they were submerged for long periods of time either)

[ April 03, 2002: Message edited by: Awetopsy ]

---

I wouldn't know where to find that figure again. The first time I read it was in reference to a global warming worst-case scenario and I've seen it at least a few times since then.

Think how much ice there really is in the ice caps . . . its five miles thick in spots, sure, but it only exists in abundance at the extreme edges of Antarctica and the arctic. Most of it is thin enough that it breaks up during the summer . . . hell, parts of the Antarctic are bone dry, devoid of water /and/ ice.

Stretch that out across the Pacific Ocean and its pretty inconsequential, as would be the displacement of the Himilayas.

I also read somewhere about the scenario that supposes Earth was extremely smooth at one point. It was worked out that if you polished the crust of the Earth to a uniform elevation, the resultant global ocean would only be hip-deep. Of course, that would vary slightly due to tidal forces, as well as the coriolis effect.

"Some mountains are mere thousands of years old, and the fossils found thereon are carbondated within thousands of years also."

We call those mountains "volcanos", and the reason you get weird carbon dates from fossils near them is because the volcanic action replenishes the carbon in them, in the same way that firing a ceramic pot sets its carbon clock.

Young Earth creationists like to point out inaccuracies in carbon dating, but they are irrelevant because it is seldom used anymore, and certainly never in relation to the timescales involved in geology. There are newer, less volatile ways to date specimens.

The ice caps themselves are a nail in the coffin of flood myth. We've been pulling cores out of the Ross ice shelf that are millions of years old. That's a million years of continuous ice formation. We can count the layers.

http://www.talkorigins.org has a lot of good articles debunking flood myth on a point-by-point basis.

EDIT: and Awetopsy, you should know by now that as rabid as I am for a good argument, I don't make things personal with any degree of seriousness. I'll double up on the smiley next time

[ April 03, 2002: Message edited by: balistic ]

[balistic]

Found some numbers:

"The volume of ice on Antarctica is approximately 7,033,274 mi3 (29,315,965 km3) and on Greenland it is 624,766 mi3 (2,604,142 km3). Ice is about 90% as dense as water, due to the gasses and other particles trapped within it; so the conversion rate is 0.9 to obtain the water volume of ice."

"Sea level estimates were calculated by dividing the water volume of the ice sheets by the total surface area of the oceans and seas:

Greenland:
562,289 mi3 / 133,968,400 mi2 = 0.0042 miles = 22 feet

Antarctica:
6,329,947 mi3 / 133,968,400 mi2 = 0.0472 miles = 249 feet"

So its more than I remember reading, about 270 feet.

There are trees that tall.

I've never lived anyplace below 4000ft.

[Awetopsy]

Im actually not a "young earth creationist". I personally believe that carbon dating can be quite accurate, that the earth is more likely billions of years old, and that there was a form of civilization before 'modern man'. I dont see how, biblically, anybody can get 5000 years old outta the bible.. the bible never once states that the earth is only 5000 years old. In fact it suggests that the earth is quite a bit older. It only suggest that man as we know him is only 5000 years old...

as for your numbers, fair enough. Im not gonna say Im an expert on plate tectonics and I most certainly havent studied geology enough to say that Im always right in that area. But I seem to remember being told in school that there were times in earths history where mountains, not volcanoes, were formed when tension of two plates suddenly released and created massive buckles in the rock, creating a mountain as a result of a major earthquake... and some of those things quite recently, as in the last few thousand years.

Im not really here to argue science, because I dont honestly know enough about sceince. (Im not really here to argue at all) What I do say is that Im quite certain that anybody who looks at sceince and the bible with a truely open mind, will find that they line up more than most are willing to admit.

Talkorigins is good to a point, there are some flaws with their thinking though.

[ April 03, 2002: Message edited by: Awetopsy ]

[Awetopsy]

I just thought of something... here we are trying to put an explanation on something that the bible suggest was a supernatural event. We should know by now that there are lots of things that happen that still dont have full explanations. If we want to examine the flood from all sides we have to take into account the possibility that the flood waters were supernatural in origin and that they were also removed supernaturaly. Im sure most people would reject this thinking, but in all honesty if we want to be objective we do have to take it into consideration.

The fact is this, there will always be people who reject what the bible says. Most of those people will reject it, not because they did the research thouroughly themselves, but because of what somebody else said.

[roundeye]

carbon dating is full of shit. they dug up a gold chain inside a piece of coal. 'splain that one, lucy!

[edible snowman]

i only read the third page so i apologize if this has been mentioned before, but I thought the flood happened in just a small area. since the civilization that kept the record of the flood lived in a relatively small area, they assumed that it flooded the "whole world." obviously the part about only a few people surviving and rebuilding the population is false, but a lot of things get distorted in myth as time goes on. if you change the definition of "the whole world" to what the recorder of the information perceived to be the whole world then the flood is certainly possible.

[balistic]

quote:

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Originally posted by roundeye:
carbon dating is full of shit. they dug up a gold chain inside a piece of coal. 'splain that one, lucy!

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Oh shit! They found that pimp I torched?! I swear it was self-defense!

[the_monkey]

stahlberg: why baha'i? since it spans so many religions, there are sure to be fundamental contradictions. or am i mistaken?

awetopsy: where does the bible say that the world is over 5000 years old?
i think that the creationists added up all the dates mentioned in the bible, and came to the conclution that the world is about 6000 years, if i recal correctly.