[Awetopsy]

I truley love Sijun religious discussions... somehow they always end up being just that... discussions and not flame wars... at least not anymore.

ewiser: preach it brother!!! hehehe


Hitler believed he was descended of Norse and Roman mythology.. another form of religion... but WW2 was not started for religious reasons. Steven was right.

[Tiger Eaten]

Here's something to chew on. Everyone here is familar with the recognized system of IQ, correct?

A measure against which a human's intelligence can be compared to another human. Most of you, if you had to pick a number, would say that you would expect the people you know to have an IQ of somewhere in the range of 110-120. If you are interested in this forum and art, it's likely to be a safe bet that you are at least in or near this range. A lot of people (including myself) walk around thinking in these terms, that IQ's are an average of 115 or so.

However...

In fact, the IQ test is designed so that 100 is the mean. So, if a hundred people take an IQ test then 50 of them will score above 100 and 50 will score below. This is a fact, in a large random sampling of humanity you will get these results. 50% of the people out there have IQ's below 100.


Think about that for a moment.




Half of the world operates everyday with less that 100 IQ.

We like to believe that humans are this quantum leap above animals in terms of intelligence but in fact it's more of a greyscale. If you are sitting reading this in school or the comfort of your own home, if you own the computer that sits before you then you are hardly representative of this world. You are part of an elite.

"the richest 10 percent own 73 percent of all wealth."


Blah, blah, blah.....what's my point?

I think what I want to say is that religion(s), be it Buddhist, Catholic or Hindu etc all contain life lessons at their centers that act as a guide of people to live their lives by. Theft is a good example, check out any mainline religion and you will learn that stealing is wrong and that bad things happen to people who steal. Seems obvious to most people reading this (I hope) but if you think about IQ, then there are a great number of people out there that need to be taught these lessons, perhaps several times and be reminded often of these rules. Regular worship is common to all religions, be it yearly, weekly or several times a day. Pounding these messages into the denser parts of populations in an attempt to maintain order.

So....am I saying that you have to be stupid to follow a religion? Not at all. The teachings apply to everyone and we all need to be reminded of them from time to time, I don't care how smart you might be.

I don't follow any religion but I am also careful not to dismiss what is being said by them out of hand.

I'm not that smart.

[ March 27, 2002: Message edited by: Tiger Eaten ]

[Rat]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ceenda:
Rat: Unfortunately for Constantinople, the Crusaders did turn up... and looted the place.

---

Yep. I know. I have half a notebook's worth of pages on the Crusades and then some. I think I can safely say that I know a lot about them. I will not say, however, that I know a lot about religion (unless you want the dates all the Baha'i leaders were born/died on).

[Steven Stahlberg]

TigerEaten, well said, I think that was the point I was trying to get across. A religion can serve a useful purpose. Well any one of the 5 major ones anyway, I don't know what useful purpose - for example - satanism could ever serve in that context...

[Coaster]

So basically occording to what some people said above, if I where to join a religion all my problems would be solved and I'd live in harmony without any crime?

I agree with Tiger Eaten, religion is good when administed by someone with their own mind, and in the right dosage. But when religion is left on its own, and makes its own rules (like you need to kill a dozen people for bliss) then it ruins itself and kills hundreds.

I don't feel like going on, this topic was getting stale..

~Jeff

[Steven Stahlberg]

quote

Quote:

not every atheist is a beer-drinking, drug-using slob like Steven seems to think.

Just for the record, I don't think that.

To clarify: we all have the 'looking out for number 1" mentality, since childhood, and some never grow out of it. Religion helps to keep this inner beast under control. So does other things, like secular law, personal code of ethics, shame, logical thinking, etc.

My point is, if all I knew about a man was his life's philosophy, I'd trust a buddhist (for instance) further than I'd trust many others, including atheists and agnostics, simply because of his religion. Not trying to insult anyone here, just being pragmatic.

[Dekard]

W3rd Tiger Eaten!

Tiger for Class President, he hit it on the head more eloquently than I. He must have a higher IQZ0rz. (Had to do it.. )

[rubbersharkman]

being a member of a religion doesn't do you any good, unless you're born again, then all you have to do is join to be saved. lol

Religion is great because it teaches good principles through stories. It tells about people, what they chose and the consequences. It provides a way for us to learn without going through some of the dirt ourselves.

Without religion and parents, kids mostly learn their principles from movies and tv, and movies mostly teach incorrect principles. They show a bunch of people doing incorrect things and getting all kinds of good consequences.

I love my religion, people who don't think religion is important probably have never seriously looked for one.

[christian cox]

I happen to agree with Awetopsy and Ewiser on this one. But for me, these discussions can be a bit hard. The most part that I have been changed is not because I went and sat on a pew (I don't attend Church) but rather, it was a change on the inside. I guess it's hard to explain the difference of how I am before I became a christian, and after. So I'm not quite sure if that exactly adds to a "religious" debate... well I just started rambling. But I would like to say this has been very intersting to read so far, it's good to hear different opinions on these kinds of subjects.

[balistic]

I'm puzzled by people who've found Christianity and say that it gives them comfort and moral guidance . . . granted, there's a lot of moral good in the Bible, but there's also the matter of a malevolent deity that creates evil, and then murders nearly the entire population of the Earth to eliminate it, only to have it reappear.

What kind of loving deity deliberately creates beings capable of evil and then punishes them horribly when they act upon that capability? Where's the compassion in that twisted game? Where's the compassion in the Ebola virus?

If I believed in that insane demon, it certainly wouldn't comfort me to think that he was sitting on my shoulder and judging every thought I have. People dismiss those parts of the Bible as parable, but really, how devoted are you if you treat it like a salad bar, choosing only what's palatable?

And morals don't come from TV, they come from empathy. I can relate to people other than myself, and that's all I need to be able to make ethical decisions. Empathy doesn't have to be taught, apes and sea mammals have it. Its an evolved trait necessary for high-order socialization.

All morals are derived from empathy.

[trim32]

Tiger and thy followers…

You are busy making too many presumptions:

1. That intelligence can be accurately measured by any of these silly tests – IQ tests measure a persons “test-taking” ability and generally lean towards those people that have superior spatial, math, and word comprehension. This has very little to do with TRUE intelligence, and more to do with conformity to the rules of testing and mental organization. Some popularly known idiot savants have amazing IQ numbers, but they can’t tie their shoes and won’t leave the house. True intelligence is a combination of an individual’s ability to learn magnified by their aptitude in applying this knowledge to solve problems (in the real world).
2. That intelligence level has a bearing on morality and knowing right from wrong. This popular misconception continues despite all the Enron executives. The disintegration of the family structure and lack of consistent parenting have the real influence on poor moral structure and decision-making.
3. That people of lower intelligence (yes I believe that there are intelligence levels, but I think that people in general have a lot more than they use… need religion for guidance more than people of higher intelligence. Enron again. Do the sheep of the populous, as you Orwell fans might view them, really need direction more than the herders?

Here’s a question to ponder for those that wish to float on their clouds over the mentally challenged:

Are we really better off being ultra-civilized, working 65 hour weeks, seeing nature through the radiated glow of a computer screen, hunched over our keyboards like automatons so we can afford our car and our OTHER computer at the house that plays the latest games?

How about a happiness test instead of an IQ test? Lets just see how we match up to those poor souls who have a problem with geometry.

tt

[Awetopsy]

Balistic: thats a good question which can be answered. Do you want the answer? or were you merely asking the question to trip us up?
I dont think I want to do that much typing unless its gonna be recieved.

Everything in the bible makes sense, sometimes you have to go back to the original greek, hebrew or chaldee (sp?) to get the correct meaning of something but it does all make sense and all does work.

[trim32]

Tiger and thy followers…

You are busy making too many presumptions:

1. That intelligence can be accurately measured by any of these silly tests – IQ tests measure a persons “test-taking” ability and generally lean towards those people that have superior spatial, math, and word comprehension. This has very little to do with TRUE intelligence, and more to do with conformity to the rules of testing and mental organization. Some popularly known idiot savants have amazing IQ numbers, but they can’t tie their shoes and won’t leave the house. True intelligence is a combination of an individual’s ability to learn magnified by their aptitude in applying this knowledge to solve problems (in the real world).
2. That intelligence level has a bearing on morality and knowing right from wrong. This popular misconception continues despite all the Enron executives. The disintegration of the family structure and lack of consistent parenting have the real influence on poor moral structure and decision-making.
3. That people of lower intelligence (yes I believe that there are intelligence levels, but I think that people in general have a lot more than they use… need religion for guidance more than people of higher intelligence. Enron again. Do the sheep of the populous, as you Orwell fans might view them, really need direction more than the herders?

Here’s a question to ponder for those that wish to float on their clouds over the mentally challenged:

Are we really better off being ultra-civilized, working 65 hour weeks, seeing nature through the radiated glow of a computer screen, hunched over our keyboards like automatons so we can afford our car and our OTHER computer at the house that plays the latest games?

How about a happiness test instead of an IQ test? Lets just see how we match up to those poor souls who have a problem with geometry.

tt

[balistic]

Your explanation might be wasted on me Awe, since my lack of belief stems from having never seen evidence for god's existance, and not from any issues I have with his reputed temperment

However, it might not be wasted on people who are already religious but who have similar questions.

[Steven Stahlberg]

Balistic, I agree, the Bible isn't a salad bar, but it is split in two very different sections, as I'm sure you're well aware -
the Old Testemant: a collection of old myths and fairytales from a religion pre-dating judaism, like 5000 years old or more, for thousands of years passed on by oral tradition (the childish concept of hell comes from here too)...
and the New Testament: written by eye-witnesses of the period, that came in direct contact with what some claim was one of God's messengers.
I really think it's wrong to place equal importance on both those sections.

[Gort]

Ahh the Bible...the "Word of God". Yeah - the word as interpreted by man, the same man self wrought with egotism and the trappings of hubris.

Let us say that there is a god - a supreme being, higher conscious - whatever, and let us further say that this entity is truly responsible for the macro and micro mechanics of the universe. Do you really think that this entity would have the complexities of our lives all figured out and defined by one book - the Bible?

Science will prevail. We will evolve, but into what? What forms of religion shall emerge in the years to come? Already we can at least confirm the existence of extra-solar planets. The extremists shall consider them their own - God's handywork and thus subject to God's ruling.

Sorry for the cranial spillage - I'll clean it up later...maybe.

[mjmcchesney]

If I were to type:

"Jesus was an 800-pound man who had a swastika carved into his forehead,"

How many of you would be offended? And if someone takes the crucifix and urinates upon it, taking pictures, the offense, if such was made public, would be widespread. Clearly, religion is not simply a "guide for life." We become offended when our "guides" are trodden upon by another--that is, when their "guides" intersect with our own. The fact that we even become offended shows us that religion is not simply a set of moral rules that we follow to achieve a happier life. It's a glorified reason, above all else. Some may see the reason of living being their religion. Others may see slaughtering families having reason within their religion. Once an idea becomes so widespread that it causes discomfort, it should not be called "pure" any longer. Going back to the example...I thought Christianity taught acceptance? So why would one be offended if they saw a simple symbol being used in an "unorthodox" manner?

I'm not saying faith is bad. Faith is wonderful. But organizing that faith and grouping together with others is the dangerous part.

I recently submitted a piece of an 800-pound Jesus with a swastika on his forehead and fat rolls all over, spread in the crucifix pose, to a local weekly club at a Methodist church nearby. I'm interested to see whether they accept.

[Steven Stahlberg]

Oh wow... I think your 'guide' is doing a little bit more than just 'intersecting' theirs there... words like 'smashing' and 'crushing' come to mind...

[Impaler]

Ceenda hit the nail right on the head when he said that war is the progeny of greed, not religion. Irish terrorism is a matter of being pushed around for 900 years, not Lutherans v. The Pope. The Gaza strip is a useless conflict over land that no one really cares about. They ought to have one big conglomerate temple right in the middle of town, so everyone can do whatever they want. Claiming that war is religious is like painting this latest Afghan scuffle as a war for freedom.

Coaster gives mankind a little too much credit. There is little difference between these 'modern' times and the end of the Roman Empire. Sure, we have medicine, machines and motorcars, but come a 100-year drought or a heat wave, and most of us will die. Scientists still consider us a Type 0 civilization-- we're no better than the Hebrews and Phillistines 2000 years ago. Religion may still be necessary, no matter how fast your cable modem is.

Kantide is the atheist equivalent of a fundamentalist christian. Both are always persecuted for their beliefs, if only because they vehemently argue the correctness of their side over everything else. If you don't want to get married in a church like everyone else, that's your right.

Stahlberg is thought-provoking as always, especially with the dark guy in an alley metaphor. I feel that the metaphor and philosophy is a little one-sided, nevertheless. I could care less if the big mean thug that's extremely threatening is religious or not. That probably comes from seeing the overwhelming amount of religious hypocrisy in my area, however. My friend's little brother got drunk, side-swiped a bus full of elementary-age children, ran from the police, and then left weed in his older brother's car. He condemns me for not believing in Christ.

That leads me to my last point. Every religion in the world is tempered by the foul elements of human existence. That may seem paradoxical when the entire point of a theology is to rid yourself of those base desires, but when the real virtue of faith stands up to the here and now impulses of man, it fails. Catholic priests, who are the icons of piety, are confessing from all over the nation that they molested little Timmy O' Toole, and Bethany Thomson. Tibetan Buddhists are quickly giving in to prostitution and crime of China. Muslims across the Middle East are twisting the word Jihad into their own godly bayonette, just for greed and malice. How can anyone claim that religion is the band-aid of the world, when we can't even do anything about ourselves? Maybe the problem is that most every religion focusses on the hereafter. Christians and Muslims have Heaven for redemption of the present. Buddhist and Hindis have reincarnation to make up for past inconsistencies. Atheists have the smug insurance that when they die, nothing in life matters.

I don't know if religion is necessary. My own mother tells me that I'm going to hell. She would freak if I told her that I thought of becoming a lay Buddhist. In a world where a mother must condemn her own son out of blind faith, religion can be seen as a poison in the hearts of men. In that same world, however, where a mother can hope that her son will become a good God fearing American and see her in the afterlife, religion can be seen as a way to cope with the atrocities of life, as a hand to reach for when all else fails.

[ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: Impaler ]

[Returner]

well said mjmcchesney.
Very smart people can interpret the bible to very dumb people and mislead them badly.
But if we deny our feelings and become Vulcans, mankind might be able to stay away from religions altogether
Stay open minded people!

[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: Returner ]

[ceenda]

... but Vulcans really suck!

[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: ceenda ]

[balistic]

My three Warbirds decloaking off your stern beg to differ, human!

[social drone]

ya um...

has anyone read the king james version of the bible cover to cover?

i have, and ill tell you...you are all full of shit.

if you are looking for morality the bible is the last place you want to look. i wont even enter the abyss of darkness that is the old testament...the new testament advocates the killing of just about everyone who isnt male, sin free, and a follower of jesus. and thats just about everyone.

new testament says its ok to kill your children if they disobey you, or to kill your wife if she cheats on you...what the fuck kind of morality is that?

the bible has its good points, but then again so did hitler. people who use the bible as a guide to living are either very sick, or very stupid. people quoting shit out of the bible trying to convert mindless peons, is more like henry ford picking quotes out of mein kampf and trying to convince people hitler was a saint.

its insanity.


as for evil and satan. if you read the old testament you would know that the anointed cherub (aka lucifer after the planet venus) was turned to ashes and sent down to earth for trading goods...TRADING. yes, as in selling and buying squash or oranges on the freeway.

god didnt destroy him because he was "evil" he destroyed him because he wasnt perfect. perfect angels dont sell squash.


thats the satan of mankind, a fucking merchant.

blah blah blah blah


if anything really is mans satan it's religion

[Steven Stahlberg]

Yes I read the damn thing, it was in swedish so I have no idea what King James had to do with it, and I'm not full of shit either. I did say the OT was totally unreliable.
As for the NT, it was written 2000 years ago plus, and mankind has evolved a lot since then.
This is in fact the basis of the Baha'i Faith, that God sends more than one Messenger - it's called Progressive Revelation. (Basically, you don't try to explain to a 5 year old about everything in life, you wait until the child is mature enough to understand it, blabla)

But if you really believe what you just wrote then you'll automatically discount anything I have to say as the rehearsed chantings of a brainwashed zombie, so I'll go have lunch now.

[Rat]

Social Drone - Good point.

[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: Rat ]

[Impaler]

quote:

---

Originally posted by social drone:

the new testament advocates the killing of just about everyone who isnt male, sin free, and a follower of jesus. and thats just about everyone.

new testament says its ok to kill your children if they disobey you, or to kill your wife if she cheats on you...what the fuck kind of morality is that?

---

Where does it specifically say that? I'd be interested in seeing some actual chapter and verse numbers.

quote

Quote:

the bible has its good points, but then again so did hitler./

False syllogism there, buddy. Name some good points that Hitler had? Or, better yet, explain where the Bible shares any of the same philosophies as an egotistical mobocrat?
its insanity.

quote:

---

if you read the old testament you would know that the anointed cherub (aka lucifer after the planet venus) was turned to ashes and sent down to earth for trading goods...TRADING. yes, as in selling and buying squash or oranges on the freeway.

god didnt destroy him because he was "evil" he destroyed him because he wasnt perfect. perfect angels dont sell squash.

---

Again, where? I am by no means a Christian, but I see mindless, empty rhetoric with no evidence as a waste of time. I've scuffled with you plenty of times before, SD, and you've yet to convince me of any of your feeble facts' truth.

[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: Impaler ]

[Dr. T.J. Eckleberg]

Religions are a way of convincing ourselves that what we accept as real can't be known and what we think is unknowable has already been revealed.

I imagine early man wondering whether the sun would come up the next morning or whether the stars and moon would come out at night. That would have to be a fearful existence, spending your time worrying about the uncontrolable universe, but they didn't have to worry. Religion told him that the sun WOULD come up tomorrow because a being with more power, not to mention foresight, would make sure that it kept coming up.

However, once you accept that explanation for a natural occurence, the discovery of something like planetary movement becomes heresy, and then religion stands in the way of knowledge. This, I believe, is the primary failing of religion. What starts as a comfort becomes, in the end, a crutch.

Religions also reflect the moral and ethical needs of a society to set itself apart from a larger group. For instance, the earliest Jews, surrounded by early tribes whose religious practices included public sex acts, reacted by placing strict limits on sexual activities. The early Christians, through the writings of Paul, reinforced these ideals. Building on this, Islam took sexual repression to a new level, leaving us 2000 years later with three quarters of the globe in such a sexually repressed society that nudity is considered dirty and sexually transmitted diseases run rampant because discussion of how these diseases are spread is embarassing. Religious restrictions make sex education impossible in some parts of the world, increasing rather than decreasing, the teenage pregnancy rate. We know that children raised in an environment where sexual matters are discussed openly are less likely to experiment early in life, but the moral stigma attached to such open discussion means that most young people learn about sex the hard way, through unexpected pregnancy, disease and the misinformation of their peers.

This said, I don't think there's really anything we can do about it. Religions are here to stay. Another two or three thousand years may change our beliefs, but not our need for comfort, stability and knowledge of the unknowable.

[Frost]

I didn't read what everyone posted here, but here's my take on religion.

Religion imposes "law" and "order" through fear. The fear of an all powerful being above you watching your every move and constantly judging you until the day you die ready to make you suffer for an eternity if you don't follow these rules.

Usually, religions have good ground rules that make us aware of others and help us co-exist and work as a society, something I can respect. It also gives believers a sense of meaning to their lives, so that all this crap/joy/love (or lack of) during our short existence is not in vain. Gives a bigger imaginative picture so that we are inspired to go on and expect a grand revelation and surprise as we depart from this world -- for some, this is a necessity, as otherwise they would plummet into a void of hopelessness. And that's as positive as it gets in my mind.

However, thinking of all the brainwashed people led to believe in all of these tales written in big "ancient" books of "truth", giving their life, money, children, etc away to it, and imposing their faith/fears on others just makes me sick. (Hmm, the name StNeil777 just popped to mind, along with the names and mental images a few other persons I have met -- to each their own really...)

[Steven Stahlberg]

quote

Quote:

What starts as a comfort becomes, in the end, a crutch.

Yes, you could say that about a lot of things in life, including atheism.

The reasoning would go like this:
Certain kinds of atheists feel most religious people to be less intelligent and less free-thinking, less logical and inquisitive than they. The word 'sheep' has been mentioned.
They also feel comforted by the belief that there is no authority higher than them over their lives. It gives them a sense of freedom and empowerment, and of being better than others, and some find that comforting.

I'm not saying this describes anyone here - I'm just showing how the psychological argument can be used both ways and so doesn't prove anything. I personally see no conflict at all between religion and science.

[Rat]

I think of most things this way (that includes religion):

If we [humans] were rats, we wouldn't care, so why do we now?