[Coaster]

I was thinking (by accident as it mostely is).. is there really a need for religion anymore? Sure it was important in earlier times so that the people could explain things they didn't know, and have an excuse to hack each other apart but now religions are just getting in the way of life. And their more for an excuse to hack people up then a way of filling ignorance.

Basically, what good is a 5000 year old system that kills hundreds of people and only exists because people fear change? I think its time for the world to grow up, I'm starting to be ashamed of my affiliation with the only species that beleives in magic.

(no really, I wear a mask when I walk through the forest...)

~Jeff
Please excuse my glaring grammatical errors, its something that can't be helped.

[Rat]

Aak. These always turn into flame-wars or great long discussions. Or both.

Basically, religion is still around to give people an excuse, not to hack people to pieces, but to put bullet holes in each other. Religion isn't really the reason, either. It's mostly the stupididy (I repeat from another thread) of men.

And, it killed millions, rather than hundreds over the course of history. The Christians killed thousands of Jews, Muslims and fellow Christians during the second crusade when they captured Jarusalem alone.

I know a lot about the Crusades at this point. We've watched about eight different documentaries on them in the past month. I can point out all the stupidities Pope Urban II caused.

[Unsound]

I know that we all supposed to accept change as it comes, but I don't see the world getting any better.

I don't see a problem with religion. The only problem i see is the majority doesn't seem to be getting it right.

[Steven Stahlberg]

5000? Christianity is 2000 years, Islam is a few hundred years and Ba'hai is around 150.

What use are they today?
Hm, do you feel like religion is 'cramping your style', a bunch of boring jerks saying 'no booze, no drugs, no sex, no fun'? Well wait til you have kids, see how you feel about drugs then. And if you have a teenage daughter, see how you like her telling you she's pregnant by mistake, by some total looser...

Do we still need religion? Hard to say. Not us maybe, not now, not when things go our way and we're young, healthy and (relatively) happy...
But put some pressure on us - maybe a terminal disease, a death in the family, or a natural disaster...
Say a major earthquake in a metropolitan area... When the riots and fires break out, night falls, and the sirens are constant but don't seem to be coming any closer... that's when you'd be glad to have religious neighbours.

[the_monkey]

good post steven,

-plus its not like religious people are trying to make life diffucult, i mean religious groups are usually the founders of homeless centers, thrift stores, and food banks. ask yourself, is religion "getting in the way of life" or making it possible for some?

[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: the_monkey ]

[kantide]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Steven Stahlberg:
that's when you'd be glad to have religious neighbours.

---

All the religious neighbors I've had persecuted me because I don't believe like them. I'm atheist and I don't drink, do drugs, etc. In fact, I can easily say that I lead a purer and more positive life than most of the "Christians" I know.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the_monkey:
i mean religious groups are usually the founders of homeless centers, thrift stores, and food banks. [ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: the_monkey ]

---

And religion is the biggest cause of war, suffering, and oppression. Everything has two sides.

I'm not against religion by any means, just against a lot of the hypocritical followers who judge, reject, and persecute those who they don't understand/want to understand. Religion has it's place, but I think in this day and age, tolerance is needed most.

[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: kantide ]

[Unsound]

quote:

---

Originally posted by kantide:
And religion is the biggest cause of war, suffering, and oppression.

---

Like I said... the majority doesn't seem to be getting it right.

[the_monkey]

quote:

---

Originally posted by kantide:
And religion is the biggest cause of war, suffering, and oppression. Everything has two sides.

I'm not against religion by any means, just against a lot of the hypocritical followers who judge, reject, and persecute those who they don't understand/want to understand. Religion has it's place, but I think in this day and age, tolerance is needed most.

[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: kantide ]

---

your right, religion is the cause of those things.

for example, Christ preached agaist the religious leaders, calling them a "brood of vipers", because they had become completly obsessed with the rules and regulations, and forgetting what religion is all about.

[Dr. Bang]

I choose to do the good thing in life because of my religious belief. But I don't take religion too far like those extremist do, cause that's just stupid.

[Awetopsy]

Religion is a form of bondage, it traps people. Christianity is another form of religion to those who dont know Christ. To those who do know, I mean really know, Christ, christianity is freedom... and happiness.

no you dont have to agree with me.

oh and be careful of your facts... are you talking about christians or people who just call themselves christians? There is a big difference.

[ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: Awetopsy ]

[Returner]

Just a question to you hardcore belivers out there
Are you Christian if you look up to jesus for what he stands for and preached and go to church once in a while but you dont really "belive" there is a god or something almighty....you rather like the philosophy?

In Sweden people are generally very secularized and I think most people see religion as I do.
Meaning they go to church when it's weddings,funerals,confirmation etc...
I like the atmosphere an organ brings to a cermony though,hehe
And I dont think all religious people has gone through awful "near to death" experiences when they started to belive...
Almost all belivers get their faith during their upbringing forced on them to some extent...what do you think about that?

My problem with religion is that you buy a "think this package" and then you suddenly dont have to think for yourself anymore....it's like a simple way out.
The bible is written by people from the start...and not by god.
I havent had so many "encounters" with religious people so maybe some of you could enlighten me about this?

[ March 27, 2002: Message edited by: Returner ]

[ March 27, 2002: Message edited by: Returner ]

[cheney]

Religion is an excuse for the emotionally insecure to act, or rather not act in certain ways.

[ceenda]

Religion causes wars?

Woah... for a minute there I thought people did.

Granted, there are elements in religion that support that theory.

Religion is advantageous because it places an authority above the highest form of human government.

Trust me, I'm all for freedom and rights, but as our society sinks into the "if it feels good, do it" culture, I imagine our society has about... oooh, 80 years or so left to it. Like the Roman and Greek societies, it will die from within, with or without religion.

[travis travis]

One of the stinkiest things about communism is that it typically tries to strip a country of any religous belief. Hitler believed as well that atheistic, rational foundations were most important. you're going to tell me life has been a peach under those systems? if anything, once religion is out the door - even though it's a monster in itself - you are only opening things up to much worse monsters. if you think warfare is bad when people are dealing with religous principles, can't you imagine how bad it would be when people have no principles at all?

I mean the first mistake is to say that being an atheist automatically makes you a refined and ethically and morally upright. That's obviously POSSIBLE, but just like in religion, it is the EXCEPTION. The majority of people are scummy motherfuckers, and saying you have the answer that will cure all people is total bullshit.

If you don't think that there's been as much war for pure material reasons in the last century as there has been for religous, you're not paying attention. We can say the trouble is in our systems, but it's really in our nature.

You may feel like some christians persecuted your beliefs, but is your best response to persecute theirs back? Myself, I'm not part of a religion, and I'm not an atheist, and I get to see silly behavior all around by people who think a label gives them identity. Sheesh, so much for open-mindedness, people.

[Steven Stahlberg]

quote

Quote:

And religion is the biggest cause of war, suffering, and oppression.

That keeps coming back, depressing how many seem to believe that. Let's work backward in time:
Bosnia - not religious, racist
Isreal/arab conflict - not religious, it's about who lives on what land.
Vietnam
Korea
WW2
Spanish revolution
WW1
Crimean War
Napoleon's conquering
Civil War
French revolution
American revolution
English/French/Spanish war
Swedish conquering
Roman conquering
Alexander's conquering
Persian conquering
etc etc, I've left a lot out, especially in Asia...

How many died and suffered in those wars?

Let's see, wars started by religion, Crusades, well you could argue the king needed an outside enemy to focus discontent outward... the 100-year war in Europe (protestants and catholics)... the Inquisition... Islamic conquering, but that was quite beneficial to some areas... I think that's about it? I think the grand total comes to several hundred million on one side, to some thousands on the other, so let's not talk about religion starting wars anymore ok.

[Awetopsy]

Inside everybody there is an inherant instinct to search for something greater than ourselves, God. Thats why we have so many religions, so many sects of each religion, so many ideas and theories. Thats why people fight against religion so much, they dont want to admit that the pulling inside them is toward God. Every person, when they are quiet and alone, feels a pulling toward seeking God... and if every person is just quiet for a minute they will hear it. Most people will deny it but only each person knows about the times they lay in bed looking at the ceiling saying "God, are you there?" Only each person knows about the times they bend their ear to hear the conversation about God, coming from somebody at a restaraunt table, to see if this is the one.. if this is the answer they've been looking for.

[Awetopsy]

Oh and Steven , some excellent points you've made in this thread.. I agree in alot of areas.

[Steven Stahlberg]

quote

Quote:

Religion is an excuse for the emotionally insecure to act, or rather not act in certain ways.

Let's say you're stopped by a big tall guy in a dark alley somewhere. He's obviously emotionally insecure. You're alone with him, no witnesses, no one within earshot. Would you rather he had religion, or not?

If you say yes, that's kinda selfish isn't it? You don't want a code to live by because you feel it would be restrictive, but you'd like others around you to have it.

[Rat]

No. I think if a guy tried to kill me, I wouldn't particularly care if he had a religion or not. I'd be too busy trying not to die.

I think the Crusades started when Alexis, the ruler of Constantinople at that time, asked for "a few" soldiers to "reclaim" Jarusalem or something, and thousands came. Then it was dubbed a "holy war" by both sides, and there you have it.

I could be wrong, so I'll check out my notes. I wonder if I can read them...?

[ceenda]

Rat: Unfortunately for Constantinople, the Crusaders did turn up... and looted the place.

[ceenda]

Also, I think the Crusades had a heck of a lot to do with trade routes. Securing the Holy Land would have opened a direct route for silks and other commodities which were then under the control of the Arab armies.

Once again, greed appearing in the conflict equation.

[Lunatique]

There's no black and white in anything. I have religious and non-religious friends, and I understand both sides.

Some people believe in a religion as a spiritual/moral/emotional anchor. It's easier for them to find peace and meaning that way.

Some people believe in religion blindly and to me, that's superstition. They don't really analyze and question their religion, they just follow it.

To some people, they have their own personal religion. For some, making money is a religion. For others, artistic ascension is a religion. They are completely immersed in their personal religion, as deeply and faithfully as the most devout Christian or Catholic.

It's never the religion, but the people that follow it. I mean, if religion was to blame, then wouldn't a lot of wars have been started by satanic cults or undergound demon-worshipping groups? Most devil-worshipers just sacrifice a goat or two. Quite polite people actually(met a few in the Bay Area).

[trim32]

Well...

It is my personal belief that religion exists because we still can't figure out what happens after we die. Do we still need religion? Have we figured the whole death thing out yet? I don't think so.

And, by and large, wars are NOT caused by religious beliefs. Wars are caused by political beliefs that are disguised as religious. Believe it or not, if the religion weren’t the best excuse to steal someone's land or possessions, than another reason would conveniently emerge.

You have to look deeper to see the need that religion fills for people before you condemn it. And I hope all of you that dismiss religion as a "useless modern tool" never feels a need that can't be filled by logic or justification.

tt

[Unsound]

Mohandas Gandhi was quoted saying: "When [we] shall get together on the teachings laid down by Christ in this Sermon on the Mount, we shall have solved the problems... of the whole world."

[kantide]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ceenda:
Religion causes wars?

Woah... for a minute there I thought people did.

---

Well, if you must get all nitpicky on me I'll re-phrase it, "People in the name of religion..."

quote:

---

Originally posted by travis travis:
I mean the first mistake is to say that being an atheist automatically makes you a refined and ethically and morally upright.

---

Don't put words in my mouth, that isn't what I said. I quote, "everything has two sides." Did I state that all atheists are perfect? No. Did I say everyone should be atheist? No. When I stated that I lead a cleaner life than most of the christians I know, I was merely pointing out that not every atheist is a beer-drinking, drug-using slob like Steven seems to think.

quote

Quote:

You may feel like some christians persecuted your beliefs, but is your best response to persecute theirs back?

How am I persecuting them? By stating the facts? As I have previously stated, I have nothing against religion. What I have a problem with is people who call themselves believers, when really they know nothing about what that religion is truely teaching.

quote

Quote:

oh and be careful of your facts... are you talking about christians or people who just call themselves christians? There is a big difference.

I apologize, I'm talking about people who call themselves christians but don't practice what they preach. And you're right, there is a big difference.

[ March 27, 2002: Message edited by: kantide ]

[ewiser]

religion is about a personal relationship with god not a structure of men. People are by nature sinful. There is always a pull to do what feels good at the moment. To follow Christ you must follow a more difficult path one with many pit falls. Just because people do things in the "name" of religion does not mean that religion itself is wrong or what is it good for. If you read the bible and try to follow in Christ footsteps you will lead a lot better life than those who don't.

[Demonhood]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Steven Stahlberg:
That keeps coming back, depressing how many seem to believe that. Let's work backward in time:
Isreal/arab conflict - not religious, it's about who lives on what land.

---

it's about who thinks god gave them the land. they both regard it as holy. religion enables them to continue the struggle (by brainwashing people into becoming suicide bombers. things like that).

quote

Quote:

WW2

so that whole killing of the jews thing didn't happen huh? granted, it wasn't a cause of the war, but it certainly was a goal for the nazis.

i'd have to do research to dispute the others you listed. and i'm too lazy for that.

quote:

---

Originally posted by travis travis:
One of the stinkiest things about communism is that it typically tries to strip a country of any religous belief. Hitler believed as well that atheistic, rational foundations were most important.

---

um, hitler wasn't a communist. the probable reason that communism wanted to get rid of religion was because it would create internal strife. and when you want complete control over your people, internal struggles are the last thing you want to have to worry about.
hitler used religion as a brainwashing tool for his troops, his people, and maybe himself a little bit. he might have been able to do it with something like economic differences ("people A have more money than you. people A need to be stopped!"), but religion holds a special place in society (and in people).

all that said, i'm sure religion does wonders on the personal level. when it's not corrupted by organized bastardizations, government, or even religious leaders ("hey, the bible is in latin, we'll tell you what it really means."), religion ain't too bad.

[iByrn]

I think organized religion isn't so good sometimes because, in them, certain people get together and start thinking up all sorts of wacked out rules and traditions and then point fingers at other religions that are different.
Religion can be a perfectly legitimate source of happiness, something I've noticed we still don't have a lot of. I'd write more, but I don't have time.

edit: agh, i guess i just kind of restated what demonhood said in the post before me.

[ March 27, 2002: Message edited by: iByrn ]

[travis travis]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by travis travis:
I mean the first mistake is to say that being an atheist automatically makes you a refined and ethically and morally upright.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote

Quote:

Don't put words in my mouth, that isn't what I said. I quote, "everything has two sides." Did I state that all atheists are perfect? No. Did I say everyone should be atheist? No. When I stated that I lead a cleaner life than most of the christians I know, I was merely pointing out that not every atheist is a beer-drinking, drug-using slob like Steven seems to think.

well assuming that kantide and coaster are the same person... are you? ... because my comments were toward coaster.. I was taking for reference your original post:

quote

Quote:

Basically, what good is a 5000 year old system that kills hundreds of people and only exists because people fear change? I think its time for the world to grow up, I'm starting to be ashamed of my affiliation with the only species that beleives in magic.

From that I infer that you are saying that everyone would be better off atheist and... hell, the title of the post is What is relgion for anyways? - I don't think I'm misinterpreting your view here.

quote:

---

um, hitler wasn't a communist. the probable reason that communism wanted to get rid of religion was because it would create internal strife. and when you want complete control over your people, internal struggles are the last thing you want to have to worry about.
hitler used religion as a brainwashing tool for his troops, his people, and maybe himself a little bit. he might have been able to do it with something like economic differences ("people A have more money than you. people A need to be stopped!"), but religion holds a special place in society (and in people).

---

I know Hitler wasn't a communist, but he had a comparable belief in erradicating religion. He tried to replace it with his own sort of hyper-nationalism/racism/elitism/imperialism sort of madness. But that's part of the point... getting rid of the religions isn't going to stop people from being insane, unbalanced and doing things way out of line. Religions are not behind man's insanity, man is.

[Dekard]

What I don't understand is why in every religion "their religion is the only TRUE religion, everyone else are the non-believers."

I think for the majority of us we are religious by being products of our families, and the beliefs handed down to us by our parents.

Too many bad things have been done in the name of religion, and truthfully nobody has physical 'proof' any of the religions are real, couldn't they just be products of their times? Need rules and guidance, lets make books of general laws and spread them around as the are given to us by the dieties.. I mean I grew up Christian, and God answered many, many, many of my prayers over the years, I do not disagree in a higher power, but I do question alot of teachings, and stuff written in any of the religious books. Like if God is our father why would he send his children to an eternity in Hell, for what is a split second in eternity time frame for our transgressions here on earth. And those who don't accept Jesus are sent to Hell? If you were a father would you send you children to an eternity in Hell? I wouldn't. But.. Some things just seem screwy to me.

Just my .02 cents, I still believe I am a non-denominational Christian, but really I don't know where I fit in, I believe in a higher power, but couldn't tell you 'who' is right.

I live my life as good as I can, and hopefully god will have mercy on my soul. I don't understand it, I don't push it on other people, believe what you want to believe and let me believe what I want to believe and lets all have a good time, while we are here, cause tomorrow something may happen and we may lose one another.

[ March 27, 2002: Message edited by: Dekard ]