[Basement bound]

Me and little bee have had a bit of discussion on Sex Vs. Violence. This due to the Better than Sex thread. After getting an e-mail from Reed I really felt compelled and I responded with this rambling
my ramblings
And I wanted to bring this up as a general discussion topic. Why? Because I think that this really affects our craft. I know that here if I wanted to teach Nude drawing in a Highschool I would get hung. But, do something about violence (however political it might be) it more than likely could be justified, as well as, be approved.

So with that I open the floor.......

[Rat]

Nudity - as long as it's not waaay too much, or too suggestive, I think it's okay if artists include nudity in their art. High school, well, I guess it would offend some people (not me, I'm not offended by anything). My art teacher swears, though. Ugh.

Violence - see Nudity. A little is okay, too much isn't.

[Awetopsy]

Ill take violence over nudity... but only tv/movie violence. real violence sucks.

the reason is this.. tv and movie violence doesnt actually violate somebody, its just a representation of real violence. Nudity is a violation of a person, Its exposing something that is supposed to be private.

Thats my opinion tho.. you dont have to agree.

[the_monkey]

quote:

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Originally posted by Rat:
(not me, I'm not offended by anything).

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youre not? not even if i killed a nice little puppy?
i think that when people make such a broad statement, they are forgetting their own sence of morality.

[Giant Hamster]

Whatever you want to do. Someone might like it. Someone might not like it. You can sell it. You can keep it. I don't care.

If you want to draw naked women because you are furthering your artistic skill or you just like looking at naked women...that's your call. If you want to draw a woman posing infront of a window or one with her fist in her asshole, go ahead...It's your picture. "But what about the children?"...Well, would you rather have your child grow up an idiot not knowing what is in(has been in) the world and when he finally sees it for the first time, be scared out of his mind because he doesn't understand? Or would you rather put him in a healthy environment where he understands what things are, wether they be cooking or cumshots, and know how to deal with them? You don't have to push all the buttons to the extreme when showing kids stuff...but don't hold back because your killing their fragile minds...then they just become uptight pricks like 50% of your co-workers.


EDIT: Oh, and the whole nudity being sacred thing. Nudity isn't sacred...LOVE is sacred. A naked person doesn't equal love. Love is what you do with a woman/man. A naked person is just like any other thing...and stop trying to make it dirty. Sex/nudity isn't dirty. It's perfect.

[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: Giant Hamster ]

[PixHortHiT]

I personaly think its too much sex in the media today,
this affects people, especially young people, to the point where they confuse sex with love leaving out the romance, I think all the sex in the media today kills the romance....

[Little Beefucker]

Thank you, Bound, for the e-mail.

I see sex and violence as the same thing; they are inseparable.

This is just one person talking, though. I watched six hours of bootleg pornography when I was twelve, and first impressions are everything. Despite what they taught in school (not much) and what I'd experienced (even less), I saw nothing but animalistic grit. Wet slop. Love became and remains for me a thing to express entirely separate from sex. Don't even start on religion.

The gratuity in the media, the real and unacceptably harsh images that help us shape our views, are not bad in themselves but bad because we worry about the impressions they make.

I worry about my sister seeing porn. I worry about her being exposed to language and cigarette smoke. But I support all these things. I support hentai and gory films and the right to burn a flag or fire a gun. If a serial rapist were to publish a children's book of smiley faces, I'd be cheering him on, because it's a creepy, good idea. Think about the media slant on masturbation, which is highly censored. Movies can joke about it, but serious masturbation scenes are absolutely not permitted. And regarding not just masturbation but all forms of sexual conduct, consider Roger Ebert's words: "The MPAA [uses] guidelines in which you can do pretty much anything with bodily functions except involve them in healthy sex." What this teaches us is not a difference between right and wrong but a socially acceptable standard. How we react, what we decide to support, is part of that standard.

I am absolutely not saying that debauchery should be available to everyone of every age. But it's out there already. We're just trying to control exposure.

There's a large moral dilemma to the argument.

In my eyes, Mom and Dad can be screwing or stabbing each other. It's the same thing.

[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: Little Bee ]

[ April 15, 2002: Message edited by: Little Bee ]

[gLitterbug]

LONG LIVE SEX AND VIOLENCE!!!

[edraket]

I am with Hamster\God here.

I think people should try to stop being so uptight about nudity.

At the same time it's sad how it's always the same kind of people that are naked if you get my drift. They kind of thwart the self image of a lot of people. People see a picture of someone that is very attractive made by a professional photographer and often altered to a perfection that is almost inhumane and then they look in the mirror and they get all depressed about their body. Even if their body is relatively goodlooking it will not live up to that picture.
I think that is a problem a lot of people, especially women, have to deal with.

[Rat]

quote:

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Originally posted by the_monkey:

youre not? not even if i killed a nice little puppy?
i think that when people make such a broad statement, they are forgetting their own sence of morality.

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Damn me! I'll change that: I'm not offended by much. If you killed a puppy, I'd suggest running very far away.

[Giant Hamster]

To make a child not confuse sex with love, you have to teach them. No, I'm not saying have sex with them...I'm saying you have to fufill your parental duty when having a child. So, If you're not gonna do that...then you shouldn't have a child.

[Basement bound]

Never thought the reposes would come so quickly.....

To reiderate:
Sex = Life Violence = Death

Rat- Would you not agree that is has to do with the context in which it is used. Are we defining a difference as to nudity and sex. Are they the same thing?
At the same time is Murder the same as spoucil abuse? Where do we make divisions and set the 'well this is not as bad as this.'


Awetopsy- Let me propose this question then. What about women of Playboy? They pose of their own free will ( or do they? Brainwashed, social constructed need to be thought beautiful) As for violence, sure for some one of the cognative skills as developed as a Adolecent it is not 'real.' But, what about Kids they see this stuff. A percentage of these violent movies are based on true occurences. Does not everything have a basis in reality?

Monkey - leave it up to you to kill a inocent little puppy! (Granted he probably ate your homework)

G.Hamster- I guess you are an advocate of the whole open sexuality perspective. Okay then we are a great advocate for information is the key to success in our society, so then like you said, let everything be on the table. I can agree with that, but I also believe is that the way you present the 'issues' makes a difference on how they are perceeved. It is all fine and dandy if we are talking about adults, but we are not we are also talking about impressional children. If we say okay here is the murder and maiham, those children could/would learn it as an acceptable part of our society. Much like if we gave them porn rather than Romance movies. It's kinda do we look through the green glass or the blue glass.

PixHortHiT- Here - here I agree with that. I don't believe so much about censorship as I believe in Education. The real question where do we begin education and until then is censorship alright?

Little bee - Agree with everything except that Sex and Violence are inseprable, maybe related though. (See my comment above the discussion as to what each represents.)

edraket - Those are the very inpressions that I am worried about, sex should not be attractive to one kind but to all.


JA

[Giant Hamster]

"the way you present the 'issues' makes a difference on how they are perceeved...we are also talking about impressional children...those children could/would learn it as an acceptable part of our society...Much like if we gave them porn rather than Romance movies."

And that's why you TEACH your children. Parents/adults need to stop laying down on the job when it comes to parenting. There is a great difference between sex and love...You can have sex, bland and meaningless, without love...and you can have love, pure and chaste, without sex.

Everyone has a right to know everything. You don't have to swamp a child in videos of death...but if they happen to see it: Give an unbiased opinion and explain that killing people isn't really a smart thing to do seeing as there are lots of conciquences(Not that God is going to hate them and it's wrong...because some people deserve to die.) to their actions and they don't need to kill anyone. Explain to them that killing someone is not what you would like them to do. You don't have to go into how killing on tv is different than killing in real life cause that's a concept far too complex for most children...it's part of a double standardish way of thinking that kids don't develope until around 8 or so.

If a child sees a woman fucking a horse. I'm pretty sure your kid's not going to go fuck a horse when they get older...but if they do, what's the problem? It's their choice and it's not hurting anyone. The horse likes it.

[xXxPZxXx]

Why do people make nudity up to be some bad thing? it is a wonderful thing no need to be scared or frightened. Natural even.

I have a tape of Jello Biafra doing some lectures and I think he says it well. (you can look some of his stuff up he used to be the singer for the Dead Kennedy's) I wish I had the tape here so I could quote it but it is something like this...

He is talking about how he doesn't agree with a lot of what some rap artists sing about being disrespectful to women and whatnot but he does agree with one thing. People can't focus on pleasure, You brag about that "crazy skateboarding injury" or walk around with a cast like it is a trophy. But when was the last time you heard someone talk about how great their last orgasm was? You probably never have because it is taboo. You would be a pervert or sexist right? The fact is it doesn't have to be a dirty thing.

What if a guy could walk up to a girl or even another guy for that matter and ask them if they wanted to "get butt naked and fuck?" And it wasn't a big deal if they got turned down. It wasn't the end of the world.

I hope a couple people read this just to have their takes on it. A little different view, perhaps too extreme? What do you think?

-PZ-

[ValarianROOT]

Basement Bound, your such a romantic, . I agree with littlebee on the concept of sex and vilence being interrelated.

quote

Quote:

Little bee - Agree with everything except that Sex and Violence are inseprable, maybe related though.

They are most definitely related. If people didn't have sex there would be no violence. After a time there would be no people even. And as for the Sex=Life and Violence=Death thing... Think about countries like China and India where having sex that leads to children is an act of violence. They can't even support the populations they have now.

I also think you've narrowed the scope of these words: romantic, sex, violence, life, and death. I encourage yall to check the semantics of the matter. Webster's Nothing is more dangerous than having this kind of conversation without takning into consideration people may not have the same idea of a words meaning.

Just remember sex can be violent (rape) and violence can be sexy (gladiatorial combat, football, etc.).

JN

[the_monkey]

sure, nudity is a beautiful thing but only within the context of [a]life drawing (or art in general), and [b]marriage. sure, the latter seems to be unpopular (im sure we all enjoyed that scene in swordfish )
but to me, marriage is the most intimate relationship between man and woman, and therefor-our bodies and minds should be perserved for our spouce. (or future spouce).

sex in the media only cheapens that which is most sacred.

ps: sorry about the puppy, rat.

[Rat]

Monkey - It's okay.

I'd like to point one thing out that a lot of people don't seem to understand or acknowledge:

If humans hadn't um...developed as much as we have, then we would still be living like animals. No clothes, no cities, no computers, no technology, nothing. That is if we had stopped evolving at early stages. We would be running around naked, killing people/other things, maiming, etc. just because our natural instinct told us to, or because we're mad.

Now, however, we can sort of...override most of our natural instincts to kill, etc. because we are taught that it isn't acceptable.

I think that whenever you discuss a topic like this, you should take what I just said into consideration. Humans are animals, just "smarter." We're mammals, not some superior whatsit like it sometimes feels.

[ValarianROOT]

So what if I feel superior? I and the other �ultimate-badasses� of the world don�t even have to break a sweat to kill thousands of lesser being around the world every day.

JN

[travis travis]

young people with lives - don't pay too much attention to the media cause they are out doing stuff

young people without lives - get into art and are cynical of the media.

I don't see where the media can really affect the youth, it's fairly irrelevant.

nudity and gory violence - however someone wants to use these things expressively - go for it... although I think it's not unreasonable to expect a warning before illicit content simply appears. I don't know it's a weird, double-edged issue to me... because in the one sense I am favor of artistic freedom and think in some way the encouragement of showing things we try to hide is good... in the other sense, well, a lot of us are going to spend much of our lives as part of a family, the one we came from and the one we make, and in neither context are we going to particularly want to be showing that sort of thing off to those people.

[Basement bound]

G.Hamster- I totally agree there. Parents have to take more of a role and not depend on society as a general to do the raising of their children. Knowledge is the key, but you have to agree that we want to sway them one way or another.

xXxPZxXx- I don't think it is extreme. I just want everyone to realize I agree that adults are able to cope and process (if you will) the sexual and violent information. I just worried about the ones that grow up with wrong ideas/ideals and then fuck up the next generation.

ValarianROOT- Truely I am a romatintic at heart.
"And as for the Sex=Life and Violence=Death thing... Think about countries like China and India where having sex that leads to children is an act of violence. They can't even support the populations they have now."
Becareful now I am talking about the root effects from the acts. Taking it and placing that domino infront a row of dominos, I do not think is productive.
To be clear
The act of sex for the purpose of procreation = The creation of life or birth
The act of violence with the intent to harm phyiscally = The disconcern with the well being or life of another, otherwize death

Monkey- Now your ARE the romantic one. I agree that they are special, but I believe they are special because we make them special. We put our heart and (dare I say it) 'Soul' in to it. We have a spirtual side to it, just as much as we have a vestial side to it. With that there becomes a difference between Sex and Love. And with that there becomes a difference between, objects of desire and objects of beauty(as a baby factory).

Rat- Well put.

*B-b pushs butten lunching missle that blows up Valarianroot.*

JA

[Basement bound]

travis travis

"young people with lives - don't pay too much attention to the media cause they are out doing stuff"

True like going to movies, watching tv with friends, reading magaizines or news papers with advertisements in side, driving around town looking at billboards along the way.

I am sure all the kids (with lives) of the united states or infact the world didn't notice that 9/11 happened. Must have been too busy doing stuff.

[Basse_Ex]

This is originally a reply to one of Shannens posts in the "Better than sex" thread, but I feel it belongs more here, so I'll take the risk of double posting it. Anyway.... Shannens post:

quote:

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oooooooooooooooooooooooohhh!
You would think I would know that, I only lived in Norway for like 6months. Silly me...

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Heh... Here in Norway we look at the violence\sex\nudity thing a little differently. Growing up in the 80's you really couldn't avoid seeing tons of childrens films all featuring, at one point or another, some sloppy, naked, adult butt(Preferably while the person owning the butt was jumping up and down in a water\sea, or some other very "fre" and 70's kind of thing). But, I never got tired of it, adults buttocks were hilarious to me. Laughed my ass off everytime(Pardon the pun).
I've also seen full frontal nudity and moderate swearing on childrens TV on our lovely government owned channel.
Violence on the other hand, has traditionally been censured here alot.
The only sexual thing we seem to have a problem with is porn. No genitals in movement allowed. Erections too. Although both have started to be allowed in "serious" films, like Von Triers "The Idiots"(?), and that one kinky japanese film from the 70's with the cucomber. All in all I'd say we have a pretty OK censurship system here.

[edraket]

Ok..This discussion is fairly hard to follow.
But I'm going through my bi-monthly coffee rehab right now so things are a little bit blurry.

I think the media have a huge influence on our thinking.
For one thing watching movies has instilled me with a huge frustration with regular conversations.
I often expect a conversation to be as short and clear as the ones in the movies. Whereas in real life usually half of what you want to communicate gets lost. Things go slow or don't work at all.
People often accept movies as portrayal of real life. Not consciously but certainly unconsciously.
Anyways..that wasn't even completely on topic so I better shut up...
ssssh....

[Basse_Ex]

Another post here...

I really can't see how people have problems with nudity. It's a part of life. Nudity isn't particularly personal. It's not personal while your in the shower at the local gym, for instance, or not for your art class model.
I've stood model a couple of times for art classes, and I've been full-body plastered once when I went to artschool, while my schoolmates walked past now and then(It was at the open workshop area at the artschool). It was quite OK, not embarrassing, not personal, not private. I was doing it for a simple reason, which was in the first case, to get money, in the second case, to help out a good friend(Other people from artschool also did it). I've also agreed to be a nude model for some serious art photographies, but it hasn't happened yet.
There's nothing wrong with nudity, in any way.
I'm not some kind of wacky exhibitionist, I'm actually quite shy sometimes. Nudity is a valid, and sometimes essential part of art and media, and for nudity to happen, someone needs to be nude. Simple as that.

But... It can be used wrongly. Sex\nudity can be used in such a way that it violates the integrity of the persons in the images. But then it's porn, and or bordering to porn. Speculativity. A lot of sex and nudity in the media borders to porn, because it's simply suggestive imagery using the body(Female, most often) as a tool to excite and therefore make money. This is particularly true for the american mainstream media, which is funny since them crazy americans are so damned sexual-moralistic and pietistic.
I guess it comes down to if the art is "good". Does the end justify the means?
Is it all worth it?
In much of american mainstream media, I would say that it doesn't, since the only goal is to make money, and they use blatant suggestion only to reach that goal. Even though they don't even show nipples, I'd say they're often closer to porn the for instance the aforementioned "The Idiots", which has real sexual intercourse(Not a particularly good film, but at least he's trying to tell something)

But then again I might be wrong, and Britney Spears might be wearing so little clothing because it's so damned hot in Texas.
But in most cases people do things like this of they're own free will, and it's really quite allright. Whatever walks your dog, you know.

Violence I generally find more disturbing. Things like when in the very issue of "Spawn" which introduced Violator(The heart ripping demon) or Billy Kinkaid(The child-molesting serial killer), there was a picture of Todd McFarlane with hockey team of 7 year olds, each with "SPAWN" on their shirts. Now that's disturbing. That's irresponsible, sick, and twisted. Why the fuck should these kids have ever even heard of Spawn?

Generally I think americans blaim sex and swearing for all their troubles, just so they won't have to look at the real problems, all related to extreme economic unbalances, and the frustration and violence it naturally brings.

But this discussion isn't about americans only. So... to end my long post, I will like to say that with a little responsebility, common-sense, and a will to create something actually meaningfull, you do more or less whatever you want.

Whatever pops your lollipop.

[travis travis]

quote:

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Originally posted by Basement bound:
travis travis

"young people with lives - don't pay too much attention to the media cause they are out doing stuff"

True like going to movies, watching tv with friends, reading magaizines or news papers with advertisements in side, driving around town looking at billboards along the way.

I am sure all the kids (with lives) of the united states or infact the world didn't notice that 9/11 happened. Must have been too busy doing stuff.

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I beg to differ, I think kids being social are more concerned with the process of socialization then engaging the media. Movies and TV are treated as fuel for jokes more then anything. It's taken in an aloof, irreverant manner. In the process of their own socialization kids do all the 'bad' things on their god damn own that people would like to say the media told them to do. Little boys kill frogs, teenagers have sex, drugs and alcohol -- not because they have some filmic bible on how to do this shit, but because it's social process. I think a lot of the nerds grow up and wag their fingers at words like 'media' without having a friggin clue about what goes on in natural societal spheres. I'm not trying to attack anyone here, since I myself could aptly be termed a nerd. But as I gain more experience into people's real lives and actions I find my old sheltered worldviews to be meaningless, often overly emotional. I guess my main point is that I think it is utterly ridiculous that some people think at any point media psychology supplants HUMAN psychology. [except in the obvious but very rare instance of the extremely insane, who want to replace their psychology with something else]

It's an academic way of thinking too, trying to trace instances of something all back to one origin. So if someone shoots someone on TV, bam! that's where the behavior was learned. God forbid a person be capable of independent thought and do something because of their own circumstances, opinions, creativity, and thoughts.

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: travis travis ]

[Basement bound]

travis travis,

hmmmmmmm.....really this is not a black and white subject. I think everything is related or influenced by something else. That is why I don't feel that children are preoccupyed with other stuff not to be influenced by the 'Media'. You have to agree that generally the media is very visual in nature and takes little or no effort to recognise it. To take a mental snapshot and process it. Not anywhere here am I saying that the media is a bible or brainwashes children to believing in the wrong stuff. I agree that we are ultimately animals and have animal behavior/impulses. Just as computers cannot change their programing, but as humans we can and have upgraded it.
Now the Media psychology vs. Human psychology debate, opens up a whole new depate. One on is it Nature or Nurture, another highly debated topic. At the same time we begin to open the chicken and the egg debate.

Aaaaaaarrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhh.....
travis travis my pervious post reread as a bit of an attack. Not intended, just opening up for more debate/explanation.

JA

[Awetopsy]

quote

Quote:

Awetopsy- Let me propose this question then. What about women of Playboy? They pose of their own free will ( or do they? Brainwashed, social constructed need to be thought beautiful) As for violence, sure for some one of the cognative skills as developed as a Adolecent it is not 'real.' But, what about Kids they see this stuff. A percentage of these violent movies are based on true occurences. Does not everything have a basis in reality?

What I stated above was more of a general statement..
Yes the women of Playboy pose of their free will.. butI do believe there is a certain amount of influence by our society that states they are only beautiful for thier bodies. I dont read playboy myself, so I am by far no expert on it.
Ive always considered private parts of a body to be just that; Private. When I get maried in 6 months I really dont cherish the Idea of my wife showing off her body to other people, so that when other men look at her they are thinking of her body.

Take a look at any of those girls in Playboy and then meet them on the street somewhere, Most people, while talking to them casually would be thinking about the pics in playboy, and so it degrades them to merely a body and not a person in that body.

Like I said above.. this is my opinion.. and nobody has to agree with me if they dont want to.

[Basement bound]

I have no problems will agreeing to disagree, I do that with my friends all the time. I just wanna understand why we disagree. Like hey, this would not be anygood if everyone agreed right?

JA

[ValarianROOT]

Ahem... I took me a while to "pull myself together," after that nuclear missile landed directly on my 'ed. Anyway, I would say then that both sex and violence are "naturally" part of being a human, pretty obvious right? I just don't think the whole Zen idea of good vs. evil applies to each reciprocally. Love has its good and bad sides just as violence does. I just think it is easier for our society to protect the "public" and children from sex. Violence in its myriad of shades occurs every day right out in the open. Arguments, stealing, ridicule...

JN

I do not wish to ridicule, I'm just reacting to ideas i've heard other put forth before.

[Rat]

quote:

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Originally posted by Basement bound:
Rat- Well put.

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Really? That's new.