[stacy]

Come on all you big strong men
Uncle Sam needs your help again
Got himself in a terrible wreck
Way over yonder in old Iraq

So put down your books
And pick up a gun
'Cause you're gonna' have
a whole lotta' fun

And it's 1..2..3...


All you kids that really dig action illustration and
all those cool soldier and fighter images.
You'll be able to do life drawings and paintings
of all that real soon. Buy pencils and paper to
take with you. You won't have room to pack a
computer around.

Scope this out:
http://nyc.indymedia.org/newswire/display_any/138918

You can't go to Canada anymore. Better start
sharpening your underground comic and newspaper skills.

[Impaler]

This administration knows that a draft would be political suicide right now. I'm not too worried.

There's no yellow ribbon on my oversized SUV, either.
_________________
QED, sort of.

[ceenda]

Alternatively, you could just convert.

Cause Dubya doesn't want no funda... funnnderr... fundaterrorismists in his army, y'all.

[stacy]

[Gort]

[stacy]

Because our troops are crying themselves to sleep at night
because they've had their tours extended, again, people who were
supposed to have been mustered out have been forced back
to re-up, the regular army is stretched thin, the reserves
are being forced to do duty that is meant for regulars,
and they're all beaten up, tired as hell and worn to the nub.
The troops are stretched too far.

That's first hand. There are a number of people in my family
who are there, passing eMail regularly. One was killed in a
CASA-212 crash in the Hindu Kush just before Christmas and
another who's a surgeon who's patched up way more people
than are reported in the 'news'. He was in the same theatre
and just had his leg mangled in a Humvee that was RPG'd.

And... I have ten cents worth of discernment.


But mainly, I'm not some damned law-man.
I don't have to prove jack to you.
They can't beat a dead horse. They will reinstute the draft.

Be ready.

[sweetums]

Be ready my ass. No, they won't reinstitute the draft. You're the one beating a horse by trying to convince people of something based on no factual evidence. It doesn't matter who cries, or who's over there. We will be withdrawing troops this year, probably commencing within 100 days of the confirmation of the Iragi election results.

First hand is not you telling us what you've heard. First hand is someone in Washington who has heard first hand that the draft is being reinstituted, and then posting it here...sheesh!

You don't have to prove jack, because you can't. You're just spouting off.
_________________
Life is short. Expect nothing, enjoy everything.
That which does not kill you should make you wiser...

[Gort]

[stacy]

Yeah, right, thank you...

You need to learn to read Tom.

My cousin is an Army surgeon.
That's exactly what he experienced.
He spent the past year and a half patching up
people who are at the end of their ropes.
People who have been forced back into duty
more than once.
People who have lost homes, families, jobs
because there aren't enough troops to do
the job when their time is up.

I don't know where you're getting your
information, but you're as full of crap as that
goose you had for Christmas.

I just posted information. I didn't, and do not
intend to participate in your little denial pissing match.




I've been there, done that.

It'll be your turn now.

[Impaler]

[dhood]

pointless...

[Gort]

You started the pissing match by coming on here and tooting your horn and espousing to be the Word of Truth. Now if you engage in a logically processed debate, then it becomes just that - healthy debate, but hey - you fly your own flag.

Lets get something straight. I did read, and I will stand by my assessment that you are not qualified to make any "truthful" assessment of the situation overseas. You are not qualified, and I don't really care how many emails your relative sends you; he is one person and with an opinion; I respect it; however, making a judgment on the actions of so many overseas based on what one or two people think is flawed - it's called prejudice. You do know what prejudice is, don't you? And you do know how flawed it is compared to logical reason - right? Do you need any examples to jar your mind?

Oh and thanks for the constructive, mature feedback about being full of crap - real nice. Looks like you don't do well when put on the ropes; next I guess I'll get called something. By the way I get my "crap" from those overseas too, but I know a lot more than you likely do; I'm more jacked into the situation over there than you think.

One more thing; I'm still waiting for substantiation, if you decide to enage in healthy debate.

P.S. I don't eat goose. Try again.
_________________
- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[Affected]

What follows is a lot of opinion and conjecture. Isn't that all politics is though?

Tell me if you have an answer, but I'm still not even sure what this war was and is about in the first place. Terrorism? That makes absolutely no sense to me, Hussein was busy terrorizing his own people, not the US. Did the Bush administration see an opportunity to use the war on terror to take down an old nuisance? Maybe, but I find it hard to believe even they would shape their policies based on petty grudges alone. Was it done to free the Iraqi people? The Bush administration hasn't demonstrated that kind of extreme altruism elsewhere, I don't know why they would love the Iraqis so much.

So what does this leave? Economics. Oil, to be specific. Iraq of course was selling oil quite happily before the war, but it was still a somewhat hostile country. What must have been clear though is that the war on terror in the middle east would make the US wildly unpopular (if that wasn't already the case) among arabic nations, which could jeopardize the availability of oil to the US. Considering the time when oil - reasonably extractable oil anyway - will run out is drawing near and there is not yet a good substitute for it, securing a steady oil supply would seem like a critical priority to the US. So the middle east must be secured. This is the kind of long-term benefit that would justify the kind of political and financial expenditure the invasion of Iraq has caused.

So the Bush administration went into Iraq, took the Hussein administration down and started to set up their own rules. As far as I can tell, they saw in Iraq an opportunity to create a haven of free trade in the middle east. Broad privatization of state-owned companies followed, with contracts being handed out to US companies - if they would take them. Unfortunately, the corporations weren't taking any chances. The invasion of Iraq was, by international law, illegal and the US didn't have the authority to make the privatizations permanent. Their legal efforts to that end failed in Iraq and so, once the new, elected Iraqi administration stepped in the contracts could have been annulled as illegal. None of this served to create any enthusiasm among foreign investors. Also the Iraqis didn't like the idea of privatization because it was costing them jobs, their means to support themselves. And over there, out-of-work people do not sulk and go home to watch TV, they take up guns and join the resistance.

This brings us to the question of what "winning the war" means. The Hussein administration is already history. Now, the US forces are an occupying force fighting against the Iraqi people. There will be no surrender, the war will not end until US forces withdraw. The Bush administration must know this. Contrary to popular opinion, I don't think they're stupid. That's just a comforting lie we "liberals" tell ourselves. They're smart, and really evil. Well, make that "possessed of wildly eccentric economical and political views which many believe will, when translated into widespread policy, cause a deterioration of the general well-being of mankind." But they never intended to stay in Iraq. They were going to throw Saddam Hussein out, bring in this free-trade economy of theirs that would magically stabilize the country, serving as proof their doctrines were correct and working as an example for surrounding nations. Iraq was to be a bastion of freedom in the middle east, the first outpost of a movement to stabilize the entire region by means of free trade and a general increase of prosperity for all nations who took the cue. Oil supply secured!

It just didn't work out. But I don't see that the Bush administration has anything to gain by staying in Iraq. Likely they're now, or already have worked out how to withdraw without losing face. If the elected Iraqi administration succeeds in staying in power and stabilizing the country, that'll work out great for Bush.

[Gort]

Conjecture . . . yes, but I have to point out a few things:

[mannyp]

[dhood]

I dont think you can make the assumption that troops are crying themselves to sleep because of a couple friends/pictures.
How about the ones who went to sleep laughing after they beat and humiliated those Iraqi prisoners?
I know a couple people over there and I can assure you they are not crying themselves to sleep.
I dont really care either way though.
This war

[ten]

----------

[Ragnarok]

I seem to recall listening to Bush telling the world Sadam was dangerous because they had weapons of massive destruction.
I remember the US government telling we had to go to Iraq because those weapons could end up in Al Qaeda hands.
Now, all the info the CIA had about those weapons looks like was wrong. They haven't found anything.
Don't you think it sounds like a lie? Or something to apologise for at least.
_________________
"Ever forward, my darling wind." -Master Yuppa
Seigetsu

[Gort]

All that info was not entirely wrong, and the US CIA was not in it alone. The UK, France and Germany also stated that SH had the stuff and was working to emass nukes.

SH had WMD; he used these on his own people; he used them on Iran. Are there stockpiles of WMDs? No - they haven't been found, but do remember that last year a suitcase was found with enough Sarin gas to kill 65,000 people; granted it isn't a stockpile, but it 65,000 people is a lot, and it certainly constitutes a mass. Now think about how easy it is to hide a suitcase.

Let's also please not forget the handful of Iraqi scientists that have testified that SH was working hard to manufacture fissionable atomic material, and don't forget that one actually led inspectors to his home, where he dug up from his backyard the parts for a uranium enrichment centrifuge.

Supporting Terrorism:
Have you noticed how many suicide bombings have stopped in Israel since the invasion? SH was paying off Palestinian family's suicide nutcase - roughly $50,000. Sure is quiet over there.

The Czech Republic to this day still stands by it's claim that members of Al Qeada and Iraqi intelligence met in Prague.

That Yellow Cake that the UK told Bush Iraqis were poking about for in Africa that everyone said was bull? No - the UK still stands by it, and investigations within the UK have substantiated this claim and blown away any grain of conjecture.

So if you still think Bush lied, remeber he had a ot of help from some unlikely allies:

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002
_________________
- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[Yarik]

www.arguepolitics.com
www.arguepolitics.com
www.arguepolitics.com
www.arguepolitics.com
www.arguepolitics.com
www.arguepolitics.com
www.arguepolitics.com
www.arguepolitics.com
Stacy, REGISTER THERE NOW. I think "Random Musings" should hold everything except political talk.

[Gort]

Damn - why didn't I think of that! Here's another:

www.americanrage.com
_________________
- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[The Big Harf]

George W. Bush is a gobshite moron, but he hasn't got the power, influence, or the stupidity to reinstate a military draft.

You yanks are safe for the time.
_________________
Blimey, I'm a Limey

[Ian Jones]

"gobshite moron" This is probably the best thing I have gotten from this thread... a brand new phrase. Props to The Big Harf!

[urbunner]

I think a draft is just what this fat ass country needs. Get you off of your computers and some much needed excercise.

[Dekard]

why would we need a draft? Just an FYI, my wife was over in Iraq pre and during all ground offensive and came home shortly after major operations were declared over and her enlistment was up as well and she was let out, she no longer has any commitment to the military. I served four years in the Air Force and have no commitment as well.

You can support the troops and not the administration. Bush is a blabbering fool 49% of Americans agree but it doesn't stop the military from doing what it's told to do. Secondly, 95+% of the news is negatively biased because if it bleeds it leads mentality. There are tons of folks that do want us there. If you actually talk to someone that's been over there, the majority of people are happy to see us there but wish we would leave so the killing stops, but are glad to be free of Saddams regime. Whether it was right or wrong is inconsequential now, we now have to stick it out until it's safe in Iraq.

Personally? It was dead wrong for the US to use 'pre-emptive war' to justify any war, it's like arresting a murderer prior to the murder. (Minority Report anyone..) It sets a dangerous precident for the world and folks not so sane like Kim Jong Il may now pre-emptively strike the US because he knows he's on our 'hit' list. We've now justified pre-emptive wars to take out folks we disagree with.. it's a dangerous decision. Anyhwo.. here's the recruit story..



Recruits swamp Navy, Air Force
By Dave Moniz, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON � While the Army and the Marine Corps are straining to meet their yearly recruiting goals, the Air Force and the Navy are having banner years and may wind up turning away thousands of potential recruits. (Related story: Air Force, Navy look to shed troops)

The Air Force says it is so overstocked that it has a backlog of about 9,000 enlistees who have not yet been called to duty. It has slashed its 2005 recruiting target from 35,000 to 24,000. Together, the Air Force and Navy say they are planning to reduce the total number of troops by more than 27,000 in 2005. In contrast, the Army and the Marine Corps, which are providing the bulk of ground troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, are adding more than 12,000 troops this year.

One of the primary reasons the Air Force and the Navy are so flush with troops and willing recruits, personnel experts say, is that those branches have suffered relatively few casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"I think the most obvious explanation is that that you're less likely to be killed or wounded in the Navy or Air Force," says Richard Kohn, a professor at the University of North Carolina who studies military culture.

Of the more than 1,350 U.S. deaths during the Iraq war, 41 have come from the Air Force and the Navy, according to a Defense Department breakdown of war deaths. The vast majority of those killed are active Army and Marine Corps troops and reservists from those two branches.

The four military branches say they have no way to directly measure the effect that war injuries and deaths are having on each service's recruiting. "There is no way to quantify it, no block on an application that you can check for that," says Maj. Dave Griesmer, a Marine Corps spokesman.

Both the Marines and the Army say they expect to meet their recruiting goals this year but acknowledge it will be difficult.

There are other reasons for the bounty of personnel in the Air Force and the Navy and the strains facing the Army and Marine Corps:

� The Navy and the Air Force traditionally have more high-tech jobs that give enlistees valuable skills when they leave for civilian work. Even in peacetime, the Navy and the Air Force typically have an easier time recruiting than the Army and the Marines.

� Overall retention rates in the military have risen sharply since 9/11 and are well above historic levels in the Air Force and the Navy.

� The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have been labor intensive for the Army and the Marines, the nation's primary ground combat forces. In contrast, the Navy and the Air Force have largely played a supporting role since major combat in Iraq ended in May 2003.
_________________
.::astrochimp.net::.

[The Big Harf]

[ceenda]

I can't hear that word without thinking of Father Jack pointing at Father Ted... "GOBSHITE!"

[The Big Harf]

FECK!


_________________
Blimey, I'm a Limey