[Affected]

As a preface:
What follows is as much reflection on my own work and aims as anything, I don't mean to point accusations. We each choose our own goals and do as we see fit.

Looking around this forum and the school of digital painting here (and I think you can call it that, a school) I realize that so many of us paint or try to paint like Mullins. I was trying to tackle painting some outdoor scenes today and I found myself employing techniques I'd clearly picked up from seeing his work and it started to trouble me. My work doesn't at the moment resemble Mullins' work in any way but I worry that this is simply because I am so clumsy yet, and that if I proceed as I am doing now I will gain skills but become a clone.

I suppose this is how it always is: someone comes up with a technique that others see is good, and the others copy. Hopefully a few of them develop their own styles from that foundation. This forum is quite clearly oriented towards the entertainment industry and I myself am aiming and studying to be able to do production design for film, digital stuff mainly. This does dictate the need for a certain ability to produce realistic images and to do so efficiently (quickly). Now, Mullins has already developed his own solutions to that end and it is of course much easier to employ methods already developed than to beat a new path through the bush. Also, if realism is desired then that does limit one's expression quite a bit.

And realism certainly is valued here. But commercial considerations aside, is it art? Modern art has long ago dispensed with the notion that realistic reproduction of nature is valuable in itself, as art. Are we here behind the times to cling to such notions? ARE we clinging?

I personally view film scenography etc. largely as a craft more than an artform. Film is an artform and scenography is a part of it, and designing the visual appearance of a film to complement it's message is a demanding task, certainly, but the skill of realistic rendering is a mark of a skillled craftsman. All artists must be craftsmen first, mastery of technique allows freedom of expression. Maybe it's just self-aggrandization that we are in such a hurry to call ourselves artists at every turn. This romantic myth of the artist-hero is not so very old after all - it may not have risen until after the renaissance, some would say even later. Before that, there were craftsmen, and that is no shameful thing to be.

I don't even know where I'm going with this myself, except to bed. But perhaps someone will find something of value or interest here - or some flawed thinking. In either case, please have your say. And if you do not identify with the problems I have mentioned above - or even if you do - do not take them as accusations. I claim no high ground, I'm just trying to find a way for myself like we all are.

[SuPeR_DrAwEr]

DEEP

>>>>>>>>> AVOID PREMATURE OPTIMIZATION WORRY ABOUT THINGS AS THEY COME FEEL GOOD AND SMILE <<<<<<<<<
_________________
IM RULER OF UNIVERSE!!!! HOORAY!!!!!!!

[Broha]

Something that keeps me from producing is influence rather loathing of. And not simply artwise but in general even though that is all we are really. I am also heading to bed but i feel that once you learn the technique it is
rather difficult to unlearn the influence if possible I find, however imitation is unfortunately the ultimate way we have learned to assimilate things and i find nothing happens except being enslaved by it. When i am painting i have incredible moments of what i would consider spontaneity<--even at that thats iffy though... where i dont know what im doing and its the only time anything good happens. Granted things are just easily done if u know the rules and how this works and that but it can be your bondage if you let it. Chances are you let it without knowing it because therein lies the problem. But there are much more driving questions and forces at work here and if you choose to investigate them in depth they will undoubtedly lead you outside of simply art and into every single aspect of your life. its late for me this message isn't as coherent or detailed as i'd like... however
i identify.
b.

[Broha]

i would say

things will never stop coming so worry about the reasons you are worrying

[Broha]

might find a way to put an end to it...

[Impaler]

I don't see such a need to draw the line between craftsmanship and artistry. Art requires craft to become manifest; without craftsmanship, that art will remain a pretty idea inside someone's head. Worse, it will become a poorly executed one on canvas.

To that end, stop worrying about ripping off Craig Mullins. Style is all about experience, and in simple terms, Mr. Mullins has more experience than most of the 12,500 people on this board. You can also be sure that he didn't always paint exactly like he did. As les artistes enfants (I'm not sure that's actual french..), it's only natural for the rest of us (and Mullins, at one point) to imitate those whose style we appreciate the most.

Think about how many aspiring comic book artists ripped off Ed Lee (.. or Todd McFarlane. .. ) when they first started. Anime fans everywhere have sketchbooks full of misshapen Pikachus and Faye Valentines. Illustrators rip off Andrew Loomis, or Norman Rockwell, or Craig Mullins.

This art pandemic passes with time and drawings. As your craftsmanship expands, you see new opportunities to employ your own personal touch and make your work unique. You learn to appreciate the strengths and recognize the shortcomings of your old inspirations, and how to incorporate new ones. You recognizing your own imitation is only the first step, but it's the hardest one to take.
_________________
QED, sort of.

[faB]

This book may or may not have anything to do with this, but might be a good read, its not about art either (actually a little at the end), and not about zen, and not very factual about motorcycles either..

"Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"
-Robert M Pirsig

The classical/romantical views of the world that his character is trying to join reminds me somewhat of this craftsmanship / artistic approach, and this undescribable thing about what is 'good' art and what is not, the 'quality' that the author in this book often talks about..
_________________
"I'm not a shrimp, I'm a KING PRAWN !" -- Pepe.
selfportraits & stuff

[gLitterbug]

I would really like to agree with you wholeheartedly Impaler. Doubting that all the "Imitators" will sooner or later get their own style and artistic identity, I can not. I�m not even sure this is a bad thing.

To me the distinction between craftsmanship and artistry is important. I think it lies in their work rather than their skill. Saying artist in German does not have the widespread meaning it has in english; if you say "K�nstler" which is the german word. Most often you mean some guy doing whatever he wants, making exhibitions and selling his art for a shitload of money. At least that is the way most people would take it if you tell them you are a "K�nstler". Exactly what I think "real" artists are, I don�t mean to value anyone down, hell no, but to me an artist puts his own ideas and a bit of his soul to a medium and has meaning behind them; he thought about what he wants to achieve or show with the painting.

Ideally an artist would not (have to) take any advice on what to do with his image because he paints it the way to carry his vision (and because he is a perfect craftsman already). So in this point I agree with you, an artist is a craftsman to some point, but then a craftsman does not necessarily have to be an artist. I really would like to stress that I do not want to put any rating onto artists or craftsmen, but artists make full use of their artistic freedom and in the ideal case get a finished piece that shows their vision perfectly. A craftsman would care for perfect work in a sense of craftsmanship, for example to have the piece as realistic as possible or represent the customers wish in the best way, he does not take any artistic freedom.

Now I�m sure you can�t say someone is clearly an artist or craftsman for all the people out there, but in alot of cases I�m sure you can tell. I for myself like to think I�m an artist rather than a craftsman. Using my artistic skills way too little most of the time, I know when I do get them out of the cupboard that I use them for illustrating my own thoughts and visions. I put alot of thought in paintings beforehand and even though I�m technically far from being perfect or even real good I was able to put down what I wanted to achieve so far. Those things are what I consider my "real" art. In opposition to the stuff I doodle up for learning purposes, which is just there to increase my craftsmanship, which is needed heavily of course.

Also you might be able to imitate or steal someone's style, but you�ll never be able to steal his mind and ideas.

edit: substituted canvas with medium, because someone thought I meant the fabric only and not canvas as in "stuff you paint on" being it digitally or whatever medium.

[Mikko K]

I think that majority of bitching about style ripping is done by really envious people. Real ARTists wouldn't care, would they? They have such original inner worlds to explore that our little illustrator minds don't interest them.

So it leaves these idiots who suck-so-bad-they-can't-even-be-called-clones whining about the state of art because their fansite goodbrush.com has been intruded by these style-rippers. Okay, so Flushy's work has similarities to Craig's. Big deal. Do it yourself and see how easy it is to "be influenced" and therefore produce work like someone who's been professional for years.

So relax. Rip off some style. Be the master of all crafts and arts.

glitterburg saith it:

[Yarik]

If you are talking about "goals" my goal is to be half as good as ballistic, allpeter, flush, fred, spooge, ax--hv. I don't really care for the style right know, that can be worked on once I have a general idea and understanding of how I need to draw.

[Affected]

There we go, first one to take it as an accusation... That's not what I meant.

[balistic]

[balistic]

[Mikko K]

Affected:
No your post was not accusing at all. But you wouldn't believe how much bullshit I hear about me ripping off someone rather famous here. Some people just can't get through that surface of fancy PS tricks and custom brushes. Pingstate.nu is one sad example of the Finnish backstabber scene I'm referring to. Come to think about it, I'm bitching too, aargh, it must be the drinking water in this country.

[spooge demon]

Imitation is the way everyone learns. When I went to AC, everyone had a Syd Mead rip in the portfolio. Also a Joe Johnston star wars marker sketch. I was no different. To move on to something different and worthwhile takes a lot of time (decades). Give it time. If someone is interested in doing something new, the steady pressure of intelligence and curiosity and personality will sift through the mountains of influence and forge something that the audience will see as �new.� But it cannot happen overnight, especially in an area so well trodden as naturalistic painting or entertainment concept work. Fine art is a little different. Being original is the beginning and the end.

I know that some on this forum see a lot of work that seems to be overly influenced by my work. For me, it is creating an overexposure (aren�t you sick of seeing it, whether it is done by me or others?) and an erosion of the market. I have seen this coming and am preparing as best I can for what happens to successful illustrators over time. I am not upset at all by it; it�s the way things are. Might as well get pissed off at sunlight or gravity. If you do something the market responds to, others will follow. It can be bad for others if they get to complacent with it and not use it to go on. But I guarantee that of the people who are influenced by my work, in 20 years most will be doing something different with their art. So no worries, I will be OK and so will the younger artists here.

But what I am hearing is maybe there are people here who would rather see me not post here anymore. They feel the influence is too strong here, for whatever reason. All I can say is I do nothing that I feel encourages it, I post, I talk blah blah. Not much in the way of self promotion. You have to at least grant me that. I cannot control how people react to me. It is a little embarrassing at times, and I feel I have not earned either the accolades or the wrath that people send my way.

[gLitterbug]

I am glad to hear you are prepared and that the imitators don�t gnaw on your essence that much, spooge.

Even if there are people who would rather not see you post here anymore (which I happen to not be able to read out of here at all btw), I hope that you would never stop posting just because a few can not handle your presence. Not for my or any other visitors sake but your own. I as probably most people here have a very high opinion of you, not only art wise, but because of the personality that shows when you post.
Sometimes I get the impression that even though you seem to be very wise and calm, or maybe even because of that, you put things onto your own shoulders a bit too much and take the blame where it is/should be clearly put onto others. I sincerely hope that my impression is either wrong or that this will at least not wear you down too much.

[Affected]

Well you're the last person I at least would blame if I felt I was getting too much like you, spooge demon. I don't remember ever seeing you be anything but helpful here. If an artist should not be able to outgrow their influences, that's their own fault, not the fault of the people they learned from.

[faB]

Huh I'm sorry to say, but only one or two times in the past two years of checking sijun, I have seen a picture I wasn't sure if it was made by Spooge... so much for imitators. There, beat me all you want.
_________________
"I'm not a shrimp, I'm a KING PRAWN !" -- Pepe.
selfportraits & stuff

[balistic]

You're pretty good at leading the curve Craig. I remember when you first posted something that was kind of graphic and textural in the sp thread . . . no lighting, just shapes. People had no idea how to react. Was like a shoe-in racehorse bucking his jockey and saddle and munching daisies next to the track for a while.

I look forward to those curveballs from you.
_________________
brian.prince|light.comp.paint

[ozan]

affected

you brought up two things. I�ll speak to the second one first. I think that in this industry, whether you think of what we do as art or not, we wind up doing the same things. example: take two people who do concept art or illustration. mr. A considers his work to be a high art, a true reflection of his person. and mr. B considers his work to be a commercial endeavor, a career and a skill set. okay, guess what? they might make exactly the same work! both might be very talented and care a lot about what they do. or one could be great and the other lousy. It can go either way. it�s up to you to decide how you see it.

second issue: the o�mullins factor. I see it like this. while we here at this forum in particular are influenced by him, ( I know I have been,) I think people would have come to many of the same conclusions, given time, on their own. I don�t want to downplay his influence, but I think photoshop was waiting for someone to come along and open it up and figure out how it works. if it hadn�t been spooge it would have been another very intelligent, very hard working illustrator. I think people (try to) adopt his techniques because they are smart and make sense.

spooge: it�s good to see your thoughts on this, I�ve often wondered how you feel about this forum. when I first started here I worried that I was wasting time. I don�t really feel that way anymore. but I�ve wondered what you get out of this. I think I can safely say at least 2 things about you after 4 years of reading your posts and looking at your work- that you value your time, and that you really want to be good at what you do. so how does sijun fit in? how often do you learn something here? just wondering. personally, I would like to be able to come to this forum and check in on your works and thoughts until one of us checks out.

[faB]

Personally I was interested in the subject of the value of realism that Affected raised:

[Tomasis]

Spoooge, stay here! I like your works very much. You are the reason for browsing in the Sijun

[Telekon]

[quote=" Might as well get pissed off at sunlight or gravity. If you do something the market responds to, others will follow. .[/quote]

I was thinking somewhat along the same lines. It's natural to go with what's already working and progress from that point onward. Otherwise, it's kind of like being angry at mother nature because she keeps designing these human beings based on the same model. Almost each one has 2 arms, 2 legs, 2 eyes, and so on. Why doesn't she create something new and completely original? And yet, when you look deeper, we are all unique and completely different. No matter how much a style is copied, it's ultimately influenced by the inherent qualities of our individual characteristics. How much of that influence shines through is a matter of intention, duration, and focus.