[balistic]

Sijun is a classroom where the students learn from each other. A little art studio on an alley where we can can hang out and drink coffee and forget about clients and deadlines and the fact that our computers are slowly turning us pale and pumpkin-shaped.

Or at least, at the best of times, that's what it feels like to me. That sense of even-footing is what's kept so many people coming back for so many years.

When you start deifying people, whether your intentions are innocent or not, you start twisting that group dynamic all to hell. It's one thing to bounce iterations of ideas back and forth, paint some suggestions for another artist, or give an honest compliment or critique . . . that shit's great, and integral to the forum. It contributes to the self-sustaining classroom.

However, I have seen so many instances of ass-kissery, style biting, and attention whoring lately that it's causing me to worry about the board for the first time in a couple years. And this stuff isn't being perpetrated by cunning jerks, it's mostly being done by enthusiastic people who just don't seem to know any better.

So I guess what I'm getting at is that some users could do well to follow a simple checklist before they make a post:

- Am I posting just to get the attention of/gain the favor of [forum celebrity]? If so, I should probably spare the forums and just send a PM or e-mail to the person directly. They may not reply to me. I won't cry about it. They're probably very busy.

- Am I copying somebody, or making a derivative work? Well then I should give them some credit, preferably on the image itself. "After [so and so]" works marvelously.

- Am I acting like a fanboy, heaping absurd levels of praise on someone and/or offering to carry their magnificent manbabies? If so, I should realize that this probably makes them uncomfortable, in the same way that me hiding in your garage and leaving you love letters written in blood would make you incomfortable. WHY WON'T YOU LET ME LOVE YOU?!

-Am I balistic? Maybe I should shut up now.

Thoughts? Flames? Manbabies?
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brian.prince|light.comp.paint

[ceenda]

Totally.

When I first started posting here, things were totally light-hearted in their approach to art. There were pros and beginners. But everyone kinda felt equal.

But back then, I don't think alot of the pros felt 'pressured' into posting here, or fulfilling fanboy desires about the type of work they should be posting here.

But you've hit the proverbial nail on the head. The atmosphere of late has been kinda nasty, but it's the same across the forums I think, possibly a result of larger userbases. Eatpoo had to make a statement recently about asspats and general comments. Alot of people probably feel ignored or left out now, and those who aren't possibly feel like more attention is being focused on them than makes them happy here.

[edit - just wanted to point out that alot of people don't realise that alot of focused comments towards certain artists can make others feel left out. Sometimes is better to say nothing if you have nothing specific to say. But at the same time I know we all like to tell our 'heros' that we appreciate their work. It's a hard balance, I think.]

[watmough]

word.

[Impaler]

Let's say, for the sake of analogy, that sijun is a big keggar. Let's run down a list of scenarios, with two different solutions for each. Keep track of how you answer. There'll be an answer key at the end.

SCENARIO #1 You see someone you admire deeply sitting in a corner sipping a cheap domestic out of a plastic cup. Do you:

(a) Shout his or her name at the top of your lungs and claw through the crowd to be the first to meet him?

(b) Give him a nod, or a small hello or a quick handshake, but otherwise leave him alone? Because goddamn if he isn't at the party to just have a good time like everyone else and not have to sign autographs?

SCENARIO #2 The party is kind of quiet right now. Someone desperately needs to chug some beers to liven things up. Do you:

(a) Demand that aforementioned local hero down some brews by inciting the entire party to shout "CHUG!", regardless of local hero's intentions to chug or not?

(b) Encourage some beer newbie who's downing a beer for the first time?

Time's up! Pencils down, let's tally your scores.

If you answered (b) for both of the scenarios, you're a generally upright citizen. Keep on the good track, but don't get condescending. Those guys NEVER get laid at a party.

If you answered (a), then you need to work on your party manners. Remember, it's just not you at this party. We all need to consider everyone else and be civil, polite and unassuming. Act like a jerk and there's a good chance you won't be invited to the next beer bash.
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QED, sort of.

[Yarik]

Well, 40% of my posts are PMs, I pm the people telling the how great their work is, and how can I paint like that. I am not a "fan boy" but I do admire most of your work. I critique when I can, but if the image looks very nice, I just say "Very nice work man." I mean, what is wrong with that? Dont you like people loving your work?

[balistic]

There's utterly nothing wrong with that . . . there's nothing fanboy-ish about paying a simple compliment on a piece you like.

When someone posts a piece and ten people post ten permutations of "OMG ur so good u make me want to die!!1! teach me everything you know!", that's what I'm talking about.

It's like running up to a pretty girl who doesn't know you and going on and on about what a perfect and divine creature she is and how you'd protect her till the end of time and worship her every pimple and fart. 99 times out of 100, you're not going to get a date that way, and all the pretty girls are going to get weirded-out and leave the party.

It'd be much more courteous to say something like "that's a nice piece" or "I like that one a lot" or "that element works really well, what was the inspiration for it?" (to the artist I mean, not the girl)
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brian.prince|light.comp.paint

[stacy]

So, now we see true colors.
The jealous come puking and mewling.

Look at it this way:
If not for this small opportunity to crush
free speech, you's have nothing else to
feel superior about.

[balistic]

Nerve struck, apparently.

stacy's month-long posting career at sijun said:

[ceenda]

stacy: Feeling superior? That's an interesting thought.

I couldn't help but notice that the main mission of your first post was to see your own name in BIG LETTERS as self-proclaimed agent extraordinaire.

[sweetums]

[Drew]

[Ragnarok]

I agree with balistic. I myself have been a fanboy sometimes, I admit it, but I try not to.

And please, ignore stacy or else we'll end up talking about him instead of the topic =)
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"Ever forward, my darling wind." -Master Yuppa
Seigetsu

[Greensun]

I don't know stacy... but she makes me trow up (it's a she, right?)

anyway, I joined not too long ago, so things are basicly the way they where when I joined. on the other hand.. it's clear to me that now there is an obvious difference between the newbies and the pro's.. they don't seem to be eachothers equal, but both have established an unofficial member group of it's own, one that is superior (the pros) and one that is inferior (the newbs) and I hate it.
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Rabies up your bunghole

[Sukhoi]

Balistic: I'll have a couple of your manbabies, you know that don't you?!

But seriously.

Don't you think that these overly eager people with no social intelligence whatsoever, enevitably will alienate themselves? I mean, they annoy everybody intensely and in the end nobody will pay them any attention. I would say that it's the more low-key people who have been here the longest. And these are often the most respected ones as well. So in a way I think it's quite self regulating.

On the other hand a lot of "pros" and virtuosi (sp?) have left the forums over the years.

But I don't think there is anything to do about that. People will burn out, internet wise, geniouses or freaks.

EDIT: I don't see pro and noobs at all. I see people with social skills and people without.

Sukhoi

[Giant Hamster]

OMG. UR TRYING TO SEPERATE ME FROM MY CRAIGY. CRAIGY AND I ARE LOVERS AND YOU CAN'T CHANGE THAT, MR.PRINCE. SO JUST...JUST KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF MY MAN. OKAY? :oops:

[balistic]

[Chruser]

It's hard to notice your own fanboy syndrome. Everyone has a stench of selfishness deep inside their soul (or maybe not so deep inside). Surely, people often look up to others to keep themselves motivated to improve. Occasionally, one might also want to sieze the moment of getting some attention the person they adore/worship.

Yes, it is annoying when it goes too far, but really, what should be done about it? Who should have the right to say "you're an annoying attention whore, get off our board"? A moderator? A public vote system that allows you to ban people if 80% of the voters want this? Is a system like this bound to be abused by the current (or new) members?

I think it's inevitable. I don't have any mindblowing ideas for gearing people in the "right" direction, either, so I'll just go back to lurking mode now.
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What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
Free image hosting: http://www.picaroni.com

[balistic]

I've certainly had my isolated fanboy moments in the past, and when I think back on them now I cringe . . . maybe it is something people just have to work through.
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brian.prince|light.comp.paint

[Capt. Fred]

Fair though this is balistic, in my opinion, you will not ever get people to change in this way.

You got to a party, there is always a mix of people. If you don't want to deal with certain people, you can leave the party, you can stay but ignore the people, you can make rules 'black-tie' 'no shouting at the bar' or you can make it a hand-picked group of people, a elite club. There's is no 'soft' way of changing the tone of the party, especially not if the group who's behaviour you wish to change is not a civilised, level-headed group.

I know it's a sad story, but over time, sijun inevitably changes. If it gets worse, people move to somewhere better, and that place is the new place-to-be for a time, until the un-wanted mob cottons on, and catches up.

Short of forcing people to behave more civilly, there's nothing one can do but sit back, reminice, and think of the better days. As long as there aren't explicit rules, people will be themselves.

As unhappy as I would be to see this place become a watered down and uncivilised version of its former self, I'd be far more unhappy to see this place getting heavily moderated and regulated.

Anyway this is the opinion of someone who is young and has only been coming to the forums for about 2 years, so take it or leave it. I certainly wasn't around for The Good Old Days, (not intended to sound venomous).

I guess i just think, it's the way of the world; things change, good things die away, new good things appear. That's a pretty long-term assessment but it does seem inevitable.

[cheney]

[-HoodZ-]

[Freddio]

Intersting stuff balistic. The fanboy stuff does get annoying, you just have sift through all the rubbsih till you get to the juice.
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Design portfolio

[A.Buttle]

I think everybody needs to eat more pills, for serious.
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[henrik]

What Capt.Fred said.

I really don't think this is a problem. Things change and evolve over time. Up and down. The forums, in my perspective, are behaving very gently(!) under the circumstances. I mean, what can you expect from an internet forum open to everybody and his aunt?

We have to live through some rough times, better things will follow. As I speak, a car full of screaming drunk people drove by, now it's quiet. I'm still here. Don't get too excited guys.
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http://www.somniostudios.com

[gLitterbug]

Hi, I�m gLitterbug and I�m guilty of an act of fanboyism. Once spooge came to irc and I could not stop my inner fanboy, which I still, up to this very day, deeply regret.

I just wish some people would have more respect and social intelligence and maybe start to realize what idiots they are.

[Chruser]

[Spooky]

This thread scares me, but I gotta agree that if you're polite enough, and quiet enough, and most of all respectful, you'll eventually get some recognition by somebody you admire. Just don't need to go acting all crazy about it.

Like on other forums, people on this forum work at Lucasfilm, ILM, Pixar, with video game companies, and book publishers but we don't basically ask them 'Can I be your next best friend?' hoping to share some of their spotlight. I try to respect these hardworking guys, and know that if I follow a good code of ethics, recognition for thought, if nothing else, will come.

Not exceptionally religous, but like the member of the Brotherhood of the Cruciform Sword asks in Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade in reference to the Holy Grail..."is it for HIS glory, or yours..." - Is somebody trying to seek attention of an established artist for his own glory or to do a nice respectable thank you?
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http://www.digitaldreammachine.com/

[math]

may i add that if i write "im a lousy artist" its not a wish for more attention. its just what i think cuz im very lazt and not really working on improving my skill
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quit pro quo

[Drunken Monkey]

attention whores at Sijun?!!?! No way!

[Awetopsy]

I agree with the Fanboy thing. We dont need that. I think we need to be a little more sensable than that. It almost seems like religious zealots at times.