[Matthew]

Hello again.

I contacted Dhabib a while ago with the question and a comment that I felt that it was critical with a forum update. I have seen many guys leave the forum now and this were guys that were on a lot just last year.
Anyway, I didn't get any response so I urgently wrote a message to Sumaleth to hear what he felt about it. What I understood from Sumaleth is that his hands are tied and he cannot do anything until Dhabib comes back.

What I feel though is that with an update and some more sections in the forum this place would be more alive and I am not saying that it is dead now but the only thing that moves this forum is the speedy-thread.
Don't take me as complaining cause I really love this place but I feel it is better to do something about this now than to wait, that is what I feel anyway.
Maybe the creationstorm guys can help us out with an update and some more sections?

Or maybe you guys disagree with me, let me know what u guys feel and what kind of measures we are to do to make this place even better.
It would be great with a Sketch section, we could place the speedy there and some other themed threads.

As I said in the other Speedy comic thread I am mostly spawning here but I would like to hear your views about this. I hope I didn't step on any toes with this statement and that it is ok with posting this, I feel it should be though cause all of us deserve to know what is up with the forum and what we can do to make it better.

thanks for reading
Matthew

[balistic]

I actually think the forum is doing fine. More categories could kill it, because it would split a small audience even further.

It's not as jumping as it was when I first joined, but there's also much less stupid drama, and more emphasis on having fun and painting.

It seems healthy to me . . . I don't lose sleep over it
_________________
brian.prince|light.comp.paint

[rec|use]

The only thing that gets to me about the forum is the fact hardly anyone seems to like 3D/Vector work etc.

It's all art, but everyone seems to be focused on 2D painted work. It's been like this for as long as I remember (I used to be signed up as Cold Blue Expressions and joined June of last year), but surely it would be for the better if there were more than just one category of art on the forum?

Maybe not. Just my thoughts

[antx]

I don�t see why the forum itself would need an update, but it�s true that it really could need some action like drawclub and such. The problem is that someone has to moderate such things and at the moment the forum seems to be running on it�s own without an admin or moderator.

I was already thinking of going to another forum. Concept-art has some things going on, but the forum is, well... ugly and feels so chaotic organized to me and so does CG-Talk. And Eatpoo, well, they have animated avatars *shiver*...


Perhaps something like a forum-bot could help out with the moderating work to a certain degree (like it is on concept-art).

I also would like it if such threads, including "speedpainting", would go into a new section (like i.e. "themed threads") rather than into "finished work".

However, I personally would prefer it if this forum would stay focused on 2D art. I'm a 3D artist myself, but there are so many 3D forums out there, that I don't see why starting a 3D section here as well. And after all, nobody would mind if one is posting his 3D work in the "finished work" section.

[rec|use]

[bjotto]

I like sijun pretty much as it is. I wouldn't want to have more sections, I would rather have fewer (I would want to have fewer), just "talk" and "art" would be enough, or maybe having themed threads, discussions(about art), tutorials and stuff in one section and, finished and wip in one (and maybe one random musings forum). The forum with themed threads and discussions could then (hopefully) have many threads with both theory and discussion, and art at the same time. People post images, talk about how the images look and generally about the topic.

[allpetter]

I fully agree with everyone here!
It does feel abit empty around here doesnt it?

Well. I gave it some thoughts and would like to propose another way on how to look upon it.

I registered here about a year ago.
And back then I really feelt this was the place to go to post digital art.

Even further back in time when I had my first account here at sijun I feelt this place were really blooming.
That everyone went here to post art.

And I would bet my old cat on that it still is.
Just that when you visit more often you tend to forgett about that you actually "know" most of the people posting here.
You are a regular and the more often you visit the more you learn and interpret about the place.

Same thing goes for the refrigerator!
I think it's just a mare feeling.
Everything in life goes that way.

This place is great as it is.
But everything can be bettered.

cheers
_________________
Fru Tina K�ttet

[skullmonkeys]

The forum does not need any more sections. but matthew has a point. At this rate the speedpainting thread will dominate, the people will stop posting in other sections, the forum won't attract new members and eventually in worst case sinario everyone else will leave the forum.
I think the solution really lies on the members. To be sincere about your work and not post anything that is NOT a speedpainting. It is tempting to post works that does not belong in speedpainting due to the exceptional work and the number of people who visit that thread but it's wrong and it will eventually kill the forum.
And for the vector and 3D artwork, sijun really isn't a place to post that kind of work. Just my opinion. Plus there are a lot of other forums which specialize in that area that are just as good.

So please for the ones that care,
Be honest and don't post non speedpaints onto speedpainting forum use the WIP or finished works forum, please.
Praise and advice are alright but if you are going to make harsh criticisms without even posting your work we don't want you here.
Last but not least consider other people.

[aphelionart]

man, if it counts for anything, i know ill never be able to leave.

i'm just waiting for them to come up with a syringe labeled "sijun" so i can stop spending hours on end around here.

i love the community here, and ive visited other forums... wasn't as impressed i guess? i don't think it's going to die, even if people mostly post in speedpainting.. doesn't seem like posting rate has gone down any? n if u want personal serious critique, most posts anywhere else seem to still get good attention.

-matt

[weaselball2]

I personally chose this place about a month ago becuase I like how its centric on traditional "drawing". Im sort of worried about how few members there are, but im also sort of relieved at how many new members are posting on the speedpainting thread and making art dumps on the finished work forums.

I don't think the forum is dying by any means, there are plenty of regulars to keep it rolling. We could use more members though...and it would be nice if the lurkers would post more often. I think the forum gets a lot more attention than it seems because a LOT of people lurk. If you loook at the views-to-posts ratio you will see that about 9/10 of people that visit a topic don't post.

We really need Dhabib to come back and give the forums a new breath of life. Until then it seems the forums will simply run on their own...probably for a very long time.

What I think we need is more attention to posts. If a new member posts his first works and never gets responses he probably wont come back.

[CwStone]

All i think this place needs is for the lurkers to post in almost every thread they view. That way, you'd get a reply to ur work in like, 30 min instead of like 3 days. If this happens, itl make alot more people want to post their work - this being ofcourse that when nobody replies to ur art, u feel that people think its not very important and turns one off from the forum all together - especially if said person is a noob. If everyone posts more often, more people will come. Honestly, if i had ESP or whatever i could look into the future and if more peeps posted that would be what would happen.
_________________
-Chase

[rec|use]

That's one thing I agree with CwStone, me being a noob and all would certainly agree to the said words.

[Lunatique]

Sijun in it's current state is a bit of a complex subject. Various factors make it what it is today:

Dhabih has abandoned Sijun long long ago, but that's hardly an issue because it continues with or without his presence--unless one day he pulls the plug and does not pass it on to someone else. Other than Dhabih being the original source of "magnet attraction," Spooge became the main attraction here at Sijun--and this is both a good and bad thing. I'll get to that later.

Sijun is a shadow of its former self, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. There used to be a lot of drama at Sijun--pages of flame wars and heated discussion, great art posted on daily basis, and ongoing workshop/learning threads. All these things have died at Sijun, but have reincarnated in other forums. So all these elements still live on--just at differnt URL's. These other forums were created while Sijun was in its decline. Now these other forums all have way more activity, life, and filled with ever-changing dynamics in content, direction, interaction..etc--just like Sijun used to be. Many members that used to frequent Sijun now frequent the other forums--but they all come back to Sijun periodically--if only to check out the Speedpainting thread. These days, people just sort of walk in and out of Sijun without having to wad through pages of flamewars, uncovering of art theives, and long-winded debates on "is digital art relevant?"

The Speedpainting thread is the only string that's holding Sijun together, and that thread is also a love/hate thing for some people. It is the only place where some of the best digital artists will post anything anymore--and I'm sure you all know who they are. Yet, that thread is also a hideous place where countless misguided aspiring artists ape the surface cosmetics of the better artists posting in that thread because they don't know any better, have no original thoughts of their own, and have no idea the knowledge and experience it takes to create the images the better artists in the thread have done. It's a bit like airhead teenage girls trying to make themselves look like some famous classy starlet by dressing like her, doing makeup like her, but have absolutely no idea that the real beauty that radiates from that starlet is her class, elegance, intelligence, and sense of humor. I have never in my life seen the absurdity represented by page after page after page of ripoffs and imitations. What makes it worse is that the more advanced artists have repeatedly warned against such mindless waste of time--urging the less experienced artists to learn the foundations and strenghthen their basic art skills/knowledge. Yet these advice are ignored, and the mindless imitation goes on and on and on.

If one day the advanced/experienced artists all left the Speedpainting thread, Sijun will just fade away completely.

[Jin]

Ahem,

Sounds like Sijun needs some serious leadership, someone who can crack the whip now and then. Anyone remember that expression? .

If it were mine, I wouldn't put up with flamewars, mindless, rude children (I like kids..just not mindless rude ones).. etc.

Who owns this place? Dahbib? Sumaleth? If they don't want it, can someone else who cares and has the time take over for them?

Even I am surprised I like this place so much considering my age and gender... (everyone's grandma). I'd hate to see it fall apart and fade away, though I do not miss the punks we used to see here... not at all.


Hi Luna.



Jinny Brown
TutorAlley Forums - again open for new registrations
Tutorials and Painter Info at PixelAlley

[weaselball2]

the last post I could find from Dhabih was from oct 1 2003...maybe not as long ago as some would think? Thats less than a year so far. I sucspect he's too busy doing whatever it is he's doing to post, but I really doubt he has abandoned it. I do think he should hand the forum over to someone if he's going to take such a long leave.

can anyone contact him and ask whats up? It would be reassuring to hear something from him.

[Impaler]

Ahhh. Another state of the forum thread.

I've seen about 13 of these in my 4.5 years here at sijun, so let me get straight to the point. While this thread and the others like it try to ask, "how can we make this forum more active?" the subtext actually reads something more akin to "how can we make sijun more like the other forums out there? i'd feel guilty if i left." The ironic thing is that the only thing that has REALLY sustained sijun as a community is it's relative unchangedness over the years.

We could add more categories, except that eatpoo and CA and CG-Talk and epilogue and all the others already have those. Why bother with three themed thread forums on three different forums?

We could elect new moderators, but unless they're planning on injecting radically new content, I don't know how many users are going to flock here for our neat-o rules. The jerks on this forum (myself periodically included) number far and few in between, so people aren't leaving because of the maturity level.

People are leaving because sijun has very little or no 1) porn 2) egocentric personal threads 3) IRC-esque posting succession.

People are staying because sijun has lots of:

1) Thoughtful content. You could probably glean an art degree's worth of education from sijun. The depth and variety of information available truly is encyclopedic; the first guy to sort through four years' worth of posts and put them in book form is going to make a fortune. Even the Random Musings forum is a collection of insightful and unique threads. That's not to say that the other forums aren't informative, though most of the information posted on them are mostly rehashes of what's been said here earlier and more articulately.

2) Atmosphere. Sijun is the Tibetan temple of art forums. Quiet, contemplative, uncompetitive attitudes. Intelligent posts aren't lost among acres of debris and flaming mental wreckage, and ideas are discussed and worked to resolution. The slow post rate may read like death in the tea leaves to some, but to others it means an opportunity to make your point without it being refuted by some arrogant halfwit who prizes quantity. How long would the speedpaint thread have lasted on a busier, noisier forum before self-combusting in flames?

3) Great art and a pleasing color scheme. Some of the choice sijun exclusives are worth the price of browsing alone, and who the hell can argue with teal and aqua blue. No one, that's who.

So, could sijun be improved? Sure. The improvement is incumbent upon us, the constituency, however, rather than on the one or two individuals who hold dominion over too-big signature images and custom titles. They can't divine wine and make this forum fresh and exciting over night. It takes effort from the members. Some of the greatest threads on all the art forums have taken place on sijun: speedpainting, the propeller thread, ron lemen and craig mullin's cube thread, et al.

We just need to make up some great new threads. That's all.
_________________
QED, sort of.

[bjotto]

Very, very good post impaler.

[Matthew]

First of all I wanna thank everyone for your different views on the subject, could be that I am getting to involved most of the times but some things I felt urgent about.
Still though this makes it harder for a change if many guys think it works as it is now.

Lunatique brought up an interesting thing and as I said aswell the only thing that moves and keeps the forum together is the speedy.
I don't think it is that good to keep faith in just one thread for a forum, and as Lunatique said once the interest is lost there we will for sure see a ghost forum which I wouldn't like at all. I think something has to be changed, I believe a sketch section could save it up along with an update of things mentioned beneath here.

The update concern, The member numbers were never fixed but that's not of a big deal really, and then we have this white border in the "you have no new message bar".
So my main concern wasn't the interface but rather the function of the forum, still feels laggy sometimes for me and I am on Cable and then the time settings keeps changing, I believe I am +3 now GMT, should be +1.
Also we really need avatars and not Signature stuff cause I have seen some guys with huge Signatures and I wouldn't wanna see Sijun become like another Quake forum with 1000 gaziilions multi-super big Signatures. U can't even see what the guys are posting in those places.
Avatars and nothing else is the answer.

Jin, u seem like an authority person to me. Could u maybe look into what alternatives we have to make a small change? Maybe we could contact the Creationstorm guys?

U know guys I would vote for to have a trial period where we try some changes in the forum and if they don't work we could always go back to the old setting. What do you guys think?
Like the other forums with billions of sections this wouldn't be a good thing for Sijun I agree but one or two more sections would be perfect and then we could spend even more time with the forum. One or two sections would actually bring things together closely, this is what I believe.

ok all in all many thanks for all your comments guys, keep em coming.
Maybe we can e-mail this thread to Dhabib.

have a nice day and keep it up everyone.
Matthew

[The Real Mark]

Ok since this forum has some awesome information etc. Maybe we could get adobe or someone to hold a competition on here. I reckon that Adobe or Corel would be interested. One of you pro's should be able to get in contact with someone there. Competitions ALWAYS bring people to a forum. I reckon that could work.

A competition every month/3months/6months/yearly. Would be cool.

[see]

I can still remember as Dhabih posted here. That is already a long time ago and it was my first experience with digital art.
I looked for Tutorials and found sijun. A place for 2d artists.
The Speedpainting thread grew enormously. And always new faces look around and post their work. I must however state that speedpaintings are not really helpful to me. Too little knowledge stands behind the designs. And i was to much concentraded on finding a mullins style. Well i imitated too, Lunatique

Newbies me including look after correct assistance and there are other forums that offer more help.
sijun is a Source of inspiration in any case but i think that all the same no matter whether professionals sijun abandoned or not, the forum will fade away.

the Speedthread hold sijun alive.

[AndyT]

Matthew: those little things will change when the new version of the PhpBB forums is done.
More forums would suck ... better threads would be good. Things that last.
But maybe you noticed by now, people don't exactly jump at new things here.

You want a sketches forum NOW ... after a few weeks you'd start another thread asking for something else.
You are just too active for this place. Don't try to change Sijun. Maybe post more at Conceptart or another forum.

Maybe a "Best Of Sijun" forum would be cool because it is pretty hard to dig the Sijun gems up.
And the FAQ that Sumaleth wanted to add. Too bad the thread about it died.
_________________
http://www.conceptworld.org

[Max]

[Matthew]

There is newer versions with phpbb. We are running 2.0.4 here which was released jan 2003. There is like a new version 2.0.10 now released 17 Jul 2004 out there.

Hmm sometimes I wonder why I still try to care, u know there is a Comic thread idea beneath this thread and it seems as with previous threads I am the only one trying to make that kind of thing to work. Posted in the speedy everyone was excited about it but if I were to make a stand-alone themed thread no-one wouldn't care about it.

Anyway sniff it seems this kind of thread wouldn't make any change either, I was hoping for it though.
ok from now on I am getting less involved, I have tried for a change for too long and I have made my share with involvement making themed threads and such.
I made a try with it anyway.

[Sumaleth]

I actually quit moderating the Sijun forums a long time ago, but as it turns out I still do the same daily maintanence that I used to do so I'm not sure what the benefit is.

I know the forums look unmoderated, but that's how I like it. An average of two threads or posts get deleted or moved every day, and usually at least one newbie will be told their sig is too big (and if they dont change it, I change it).

Over the years I've learned two things.

One, it's better to just delete someone's post rather than ban them. You ban them, they're back later the same day with a new IP or username and now twice as annoying. You delete their posts they get bored really quick because they're doing it for attention. This is why Sijun has a calmer atmosphere than other forums.

Two, you can't make a forum the way you want it to be. The forum will always become whatever it becomes. In the early years we discussed strategies forever, but in the end it all just lumbered on in it's own direction. See the same thing happening with other forums too.

I don't mind that most people post their art in the speedpainting thread, I really don't. I wouldn't mind even if everything was posted in one thread. It's like 30 daily threads all merged into one and it's great. No where else do you see such genuine interaction between artists. It is life.
_________________
Art Links Archive -- Artists and Tutorials

[ceenda]

[spyroteknik]

this is singly, the most inspirational board available, and it's not really the level of art, the speedie thread is, as sumaleth said, genuine interaction, crits are given as a surprise, it's not something that's expected (more a sign that your headed in the right direction rather than an expected generic response), i've learned more in that thread alone than anywhere else, there's so many tips dropped in there that anyone can grip onto, it's a different kind of board to the others out there, it's not a showcase, somewhere you expect comments, it's more of a lurkers paradise/learning tool, i think it would live on no matter who came/left, there are too many posters in there to have it die for any reason, which is why sijun is still strong, i don't believe it's because of one or two artists, but a genuine community, imitation is what everyone does, so i don't see that as a problem, everyone who tries to imitate a certain style, usually finds their own eventually, and drops their influences, it's natural, and happens on every board, it only seems prominent as it's concentrated in one thread, i'd say all in all, this is the same board i started posting on, same attitude, same community, maybe different people but the heart of it is the same, it takes a while to figure out how things run and why people dont comment on your work (lets face it, most who register think that for at least their first 100 posts) but once you do, it becomes home, it's not eatpoo/conceptart/cgtalk

[Drunken Monkey]

[fluO]

[Chruser]

Very insightful replies. I've been lurking here for a year or so, and the board just keeps pulling me back over and over and over again. Even though I don't post that much, the atmosphere is just awesome here.

I'm an artistic beginner, and I find this board, as previously stated, to be an amazing resource for learning art better. Looking back at old threads shows an amazing artistic development among almost all members who are still around and active, which is very encouraging too, even though the standards seem to have mutually raised significantly. But I have yet to see a beginner trying his hardest to become better at art get chased off a cliff by an angry horde of members equipped with pickaxes.

Criticism is honest here, and if someone has nothing useful to say, refraining from posting seems to be the common idea, instead of posting something along the lines of "lol u suck" to increase the post count of oneself and thereby gain additional "respect" from active board involvement. It doesn't happen here. And it rocks.

[skullmonkeys]

I agree with AndyT with making "best of sijun" forum. It would really help a lot. We could also work on fixing the broken links at the same time.

Lunatique, what you have said above is harsh but quite true. Is there anything that can be done to fix sijun's flaws? over time?