[illustr8r]

I'm looking at buying a new comp. The main purpose is for art, but also for gaming and general stuff most people use a computer for. In the past I have mainly worked traditionally, but recently have been getting more into digital painting and such. I am having a hard time deciding between a AMD athlon 64 processor and a Pentium 4. As far as the monitor goes, I can't figure out whether to go with Lcd or Crt.

From what I've gathered. AMD 64 and P4 are pretty comparable to each other. I kind of seems like a Ford vs. Chevy debate. Most of the imformation I've found is all from non-artist computer geeks. I'd like to get some input from some computer geek/ artists instead.

Lcd monitors are cool and hip and nifty and all, but from what I understand they aren't any better and maybe even worse graphically than Crt. The main advantages to lcd seems to be:
1. its compact and saves space
2. its easier or your eyes if your working at your comp for hours on end
3. its cooler looking
but, is that really worth the high prices?

crt advantages seem to be:
1. it seems to technically have higher resolution
2. better colors
3. faster response time.
4. much cheeper.
is the space, retina burning and all enough to keep me from just getting crt?

I would also like to do a double monitor set-up. If I buy 2 lcds, that starts to get pretty pricy. I don't know a whole lot about all of this since I've stuck more to traditional art, so any comments would be much appreciated.

p.s. any other advice on buying this computer? I don't need a super computer, but I do need something pretty good for creating and storing my art.
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"Art, like morality, consists of drawing the line somewhere." -G.K. Chesterson

[B0b]

ps 8 = Xeon (P4)
ps 7.01 = Opteron (xp64)

crt = mitsubishi

tft = apple 23, dell or formac 20"

[eyewoo]

Two monitor setup - Main monitor a CRT, secondary monitor an LCD.

Monitors stacked with secondary monitory on top of primary.

Not sure about graphics cards that support two monitors. My preference is simply using two graphics cards. One high quality for the primary monitor and what ever happens to be available for the scondary.
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[UnAlternate]

hi illutr8tor,

as for the p4 VS athlon, i really don't think it will matter all that much to you. as you said, people will always have their views and opinions, but the truth is that if you're not all that into the geeky side of things, pretty much any processor will do the job these days. generally amd's are cheaper and some say easier to overclock, while intels seem to be more stable at times.


as for the crt VS lcd - i recently had to face the question myself. after a few weeks of research, talking to people, and, for that matter, using my own eyes, i decided to go for dual tft's and i have to say that i really feel i made the right decision here.

i use 2 x hyundai q17s, run in 1280x1024, which gives me a total resolution of 2560x1024. i've only used them for about a week and already feel that i could never return to a single screen setup. or a crt setup for that matter.


to comment about the pro's and con's:


reslolution - yes a crt have a wider range of avaliable resolutions, as well as the ability to run higher resolutions than a tft (that always has to be run at it's native resolution). however, with a dual screen 17' tft setup, you reach a total workspace resolution of 2560x1024 which is exactly what you would want to run on a dual screen 19' crt setup anyway. a single 21' crt give you 1600x1200, but even that is about 30% less workspace, resolution wise, than a dual 17' tft rig. of course you can run two 21 inch crt's in 2 x 1600x1200, but that wouldn't be much cheaper than two 17' tft's anyway.

colour/contrast/viewing angle - i guess it depends. i know a super high-end publishing or printing professional probably wouldn't be satisfied with anything else than a specially calibrated monster monitor, but you have to judge this with your own eyes. contrast ratio and viewing angle on the tft's have become so good these days that you probably won't notice any difference. as for the colour, you have to realise that if you yourself can't see any difference it probably won't matter to you or your work anyway, whether you are a graphic artist, designer or a digital illustrator. have a look around at the local stores to see it for yourself.

eyestrain - huge difference! i used a crt for many years and could never look at if for more a couple of hours before getting a headache or feeling that my eyes needed a break. even at a refresh rate above 85 hz, the crt's flicker is still recognisable by your brain which will cause fautige over long working sessions. i guess this is also very much up to personal preference, but for me, the change was a gift from above. now i don't notice anything and can easily work for 10 hours straight.

response time - todays crt's with response times below 20 ms work perfect both for games and movies. but be careful with what the companies promise. certain 16 ms monitors use a special system which actually makes the responce time double at times = 32 ms. if you go for a tft, the 20 ms seem safer these days. or at least make sure to read some reviews carefully!

space - not much to say here. a crt looks like a car in comparison.


i'm sure many people will disagree with me here, but for me - the choice was great and i have not felt regret for a second. take your time though, and really think through your own needs/preferences before making a decision. good luck!

[cheney]

A 22in CRT can have as high as 2048x1536 resolution at 90hz vertical refresh. This is a vastly superior resolution to anything reached by flat screens. So, if you had two 22in monitors your desktop would be 4096x1536px. That would be a large desktop. This set up would actually cost the same as two 17in flat screens. The real cost of using CRT monitors is a massive use of desk space. 22in monitors require a huge amount of space.

Here is an example of a graphic for dual screen desktop of 1600x1200 monitors (3200x1200): here

Now imagine that image 28% larger at 4096x1536px.
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http://prettydiff.com/

[B0b]

running the monitors @ their top res would require a lower dot pitch than crt's are currenty capable of.. so top res on 22"would appear blured..

as for being superior to TFT.. check out this puppy


IBM T221-DG5 22.2 inch QUXGA-W ([email protected] dot) Flat Panel Monitor
IBM Web Price
$8,399.00*
Availability: Within 2-4 weeks**


The IBM IntelliStation T221 Flat Panel Monitor is a high-resolution TFT display designed for critical visualization in technical settings. Packing 9.2 million pixels (204 pixels/inch) into its 22.2" viewing area, the near-photographic image exhibits fine-line accuracy, crisp contrast and subtle detail. The cinematic 16:10 aspect ratio invites collaborative viewing, and enhances user productivity by reducing the need for panning, scrolling and zooming.

its just having that kind of money for the tft

oh yeah beware of cheap tft's as they only display 18bit colour....

[Gort]

If it were me...

I'd sink my money into a dual Xeon setup with at least 2 gigs of ram, two serial ATA drives and two CRTs. LCDs are very, very nice, but getting two of them is gonna wamp ya real hard in the wallet.
_________________
- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[B0b]

i'd wait a little longer and get SATA2..

and Xeon has no future upgrade path when 64bit comes widely available next year..

[weaselball2]

as far as the monitor, I would get a viewsonic CRT. Viewsonic is known for its vibrant color and the quality of its monitors. If you are on a lowish budget (like me), a CRT is definitely more bang for the buck. You can get a 21 inch CRT for the price of a 17 inch TFT.

If you have a lot of cash to spare, those 500-1000 dollar TFT's are very nice, and might be a better choice.

As for the processor, I would just get whatever is cheaper. The intel p4 and amd athlon xp are basically the same. the athlon 3000+ is about the same speed as a 3 ghz intel p4 ect...

If you got the cash, the amd athlon 64's are very nice, but also very expensive. The athlon 64's are a generation higher than the p4's and athlon xp's, and might be a better buy if you got the cash.

[Malachi Maloney]

CRT for the monitor, all the way. Unless you can afford plasma.

I recently got a new monitor, a IBM P260 21-inch CRT Monitor. It's big, clunky and super heavy (90 lbs), but it's got the cleanest picture I've ever seen. It uses Trinitron technology, so the screen is flat, colors are rich and details are sharp. You can pick up a new one for just under $1,000, or you can grab a refurbished one from Overstock.com for around $315.

I'd definitely recommend you check one out before going LCD.

Take it easy,
~M~
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l i q u i d w e r x

[ThisIsMyUserName]

Don't forget P4s (C line, and perhaps higher, I haven't shopped for a new computer in over a year) have HT capabilities.

Basically you get the benefits of 2 CPUs without having to pay for 2 CPUs, and it's not marketing bs either.

In the past I've ran a "real" dual CPU system (granted it wasn't amazing, but for its time it was ok), and now I run a P4 3.0C. They both acted identical.

Example...

For testing purposes, if I open a huge image in Photoshop and run some CPU intensive filter, and then switch to another application it "feels" like nothing is going on. CPU #1 is maxed out by photoshop, but the virtual CPU #2 is completely free (this is all hands free mind you, you don't have to do anything to magically make it work).

I can honestly say I could -not- imagine working on any other type of system. The difference it makes is that big.

I'd take a guess that dual xeons (or a dual AMD line) wouldn't act any differently. Possibly more cache on the CPU would benefit you (dual xeons might be better), but I'm not sure if it'll help for art related programs (this is something you'd have to research).

RAM will definitely be something you don't want to skimp on. Currently I have 512MB, and for me, it's ok. Painter will run out of memory if I use huge brushes, or the brushes will lag when they are close to the max size I can use, but after reading many posts, this appears to be something that effects everyone.

To give you an idea of real world performance...

Right now (this very second), I'm running 2 game clients (mmorpg genre -- not very intensive graphics, but not too bad either), each client is taking up 60-80MB of ram, and a total of 40% CPU load.

I can open a 22"x22" image in photoshop and use a 500 pixel airbrush as if nothing was going on. This is with 1 7200rpm HD as well. It caches to the HD once in a while (but not often enough to annoy me), so I'm guessing if I had 2 HDs (as photoshop recommends to put the swap file on a different drive), the performance would be better.

Anyways, not too shabby for a chip that costs $225 and has been out for over a year.

I can't really comment on monitors. I haven't shopped for one in years and mine was a hand me down from a previous work location. It's a viewsonic 19", and while it weighs roughly 800 pounds, is the size of half my desk and looks disgusting, it does its job well enough for me to not ditch it for a newer model.

[illustr8r]

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I think I've made some decisions on what I'm gonna get. Anymore comments on what I have selected would be appreciated. This all seems to be good bang for the buck stuff. Let me know what you think.

Here's the basic run down. What do you think?:

Monitors - two 19" ViewSonic CRTs
Processor - AMD Athlon 64 3200
Hard Drive - 240 GB 7200rpm Maxtor Hard Drive
Video Card - nVIDIA GeForce FX5700 ULTRA Video Card, 128MB
Memory - Crucial 1 GB DDR Ram

(if you want to see more detailed specs look at the big long list below):

As for monitor, I think I'm gonna have to protect the best interests of my wallet for now. I figure tfts will get better and cheaper in the next couple years & I can get those then. But, for now I think I'll get 2 of these:

ViewSonic G90FB 19" PerfectFlat CRT Monitor -RETAIL
Specifications:
CRT Type: PerfectFlat� screen
Dot Pitch: 0.25mm diagonal
Max / Optimal resolution: 1920x1440 @ 64Hz / 1600x1200 @ 77Hz
Frequency / Bandwidth: fh: 30~97kHz; fv: 50~180Hz / 200MHz
Features: SuperClear� technology, ARAG� screen treatment
Dimensions & Weight: 17.6" x 18.3" x 18.1" (WxHxD), 48.5 lbs
$198.00 each

As for processor, I think I'll just go ahead and do one of these:

Processor Speed: 64 3200+ / 2.00GHz
Processor Interface: Socket 754
Processor Class: Athlon 64
Cache Size: 1MB
Bus Speed: 1600MHz
Additional Technologies: HyperTransport
$279.99

And the rest of the stysem:

CHAINTECH "VNF3-250" nForce3 250 Chipset Motherboard for AMD Socket 754 CPU -RETAIL
Specifications:
Supported CPU: Supports the new generation of AMD Socket 754 Athlon64 CPU
Chipset: NVIDIA nForce3 250
RAM: 3x DIMM for DDR400/333/266 Max 2GB
IDE: 2x ATA 133 up to 4 Devices
Slots: 1x AGP 8X/4X, 5x PCI, 1x CMR
Ports: 2xPS/2,2xCOM,1xLPT,1xLAN,6xUSB2.0(Rear 4),Audio Ports
Onboard Audio: 5.1-Channel AC'97 Codec
Onboard LAN: Realtek 8100C 10/100Mbps Fast Ethernet
Onboard SATA/RAID: 2x Serial ATA 150, RAID 0/1
$88.00

Thermaltake Venus 12 CPU Cooler For AMD Opteron and Athlon 64, Model "A1744"
Specifications:
Compatibility: AMD Athlon 64 & Opteron
Dimensions: Fan: 80 x 80 x 32 mm, Heatsink: 73.6 x 73 x 48 mm (73 fins)
Bearing Type: 2 Ball bearing
Nominal Speed(RPM): 2000 � 10% RPM at 20�C~ 5500 � 10% RPM at 55�C
Max Air Flow(CFM): 26.50 CFM at 20�C, 72.92 CFM at 55�C
Max Pressure: 3.29 mmH2O at 20�C, 9.06mmH2O at 55�C
HeatSink Material: Copper
Rated Voltage: 12V
Connector: 4 Pin
Noise(dBA): 21 at 2000 RPM, 48 at 5500
$28.99

2 of these:
Maxtor 120GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive, MODEL 6Y120M0, OEM Drive Only
Specifications:
Capacity: 120GB
Average Seek Time: 9.3 ms
Buffer: 8MB
Rotational Speed: 7200 RPM
Interface: Serial ATA
Features: FDB Motors
Manufacturer Warranty: 3 years
$95.00 each

GAINWARD nVIDIA GeForce FX5700 ULTRA Video Card, 128MB GDDR3, 128-bit, Dual DVI/TV-Out, 8X AGP, Model "FX PowerPack! Ultra/960 DVI-DVI Golden Sample" -RETAIL
Specifications:
Chipset/Core Speed: nVIDIA GeForce FX5700 ULTRA/500MHz
Memory/Effective Speed: 128MB GDDR3/1000MHz
BUS: AGP 4X/8X
Ports: DVI + DVI + TV-Out(S-Video Out)
Support 3D API: DirectX�9, OpenGL�1.5
Cable/Accessories: 2 Cables, 2 DVI to VGA Adapters, 3 CD, Manual
Max Resolution@32bit Color: 2048X1536@85Hz
$181.00

2 of these:
Crucial 184 Pin 512MB DDR PC-3200 8T - OEM
Specifications:
Manufacturer: Crucial
Speed: DDR400(PC3200)
Type: 184 Pin DDR SDRAM
Error Checking: Non-ECC
Registered/Unbuffered: Unbuffered
Cas Latency: 3
Support Voltage: 2.6V
Bandwidth: 3.2GB/s
Organization: 64M x 64 -Bit
$78.00 each

ENERMAX Silver ATX MID Tower Case, Model "CS-800TA-S" -RETAIL
Specifications:
Case Type: ATX MID Tower Case
Color: Silver
Material: SECC 0.8mm
Drive Bays: 5.25" x 4/0, 3.5" x 2/4 (external/internal)
Expansion Slots: 7
Front Ports: USB2.0 x 2 ,Audio in/out, IEEE 1394
Power Supply: N/A
Cooling System: Front:8cm x 1 (air in), Rear:8cm x 1 (air out), Side :8cm x air in)
Motherboard Compatibility: Standard P4 ATX, Micro ATX, Extend ATX
Dimensions: 21" D x 7.8" W x 17" H
$66.00

Aspire 520W 12V Triple Fan Aluminum Power Supply (Silver), Model "ATX-AS520W SILVER" -RETAIL
Specifications:
Type: ATX
Maximum Power: 520W
Material: Aluminum
Dimensions(DxWxH): 150x168.5x86mm
Shipping Weight: @pc 4.5 lbs / 8pcs Per Box
Features: ATX 520 P4 Aluminum Power Supply w/2*8 cm UV Blue Fan Intake Heat w/1*8 cm UV Blue Fan Exhaust Heat w/4 Blue Led Multi-Color Coated Components & PC Board Green UV Sensitive Wiresleeve & Connectors w/Fan Speed Adjuster w/ I/O Switch Cable-Tube-Tied Wires for Neatness
$54.00

Samsung 8X Internal DVD+/-RW Drive, SH-W08ARNS , Retail
Specifications:
Write Speed: 8X DVD+R, 4X DVD+RW, 8X DVD-R, 4X DVD-RW, 32X CD-R, 16X CD-RW
Read Speed: 40X CD-ROM, 12X DVD-ROM
Interface: ATAPI / E-IDE
Buffer: 2MB
OS Support: Windows XP/2000/Me/98SE
Features: Buffer Under Run Free Technology.
Packaging: Retail box
$71.99

Logitech Cordless MX Duo USB/ PS/2 104keys -RETAIL
Specifications:
Interface: USB/ PS/2
Number Of Keys: 104 keys + 12 function keys + 2 wheel
Wireless Technology: RF
Palm Rest: Detachable
Design Style: Standard
Mouse included: wireless optical
Features: Eliminate the clutter with cordless freedom, Get comfortable with the keyboard's ultra-flat Zero Degree Tilt design, Make scrolling easier with the unique iNav wheel, Ground-breaking new MX optical engine captures more data every second, Cruise Control system combines two buttons with scroll wheel, Rapid charge base station.
$74.00

CyberPower OfficePower 625VA 6 Outlet UPS with Automatic Voltage Regulator, Model "CPS625AVR" -RETAIL
Specifications:
VA Rating: 625VA
Battery Run-time: 17- 24 minutes
Battery Recharge Time: 8 hours
Input Voltage & Frequency: 92V to 140V, 57Hz- 63 Hz
Output Voltage & Frequency: 120V 5%, 60 Hz
Protection: Internal circuitry limiting. On line circuit breaker
Dimensions: Length 9.875" x Width 6.1875" x Height 3.125"
$59.95

I think that should cover everything I need for my whole setup for about $1650 + s&h

I'm ordering it all from newegg.com, except for the processor, which NE was out of and I'm getting from tigerdirect. Since I don't know a whole lot about computers, my friend is gonna help me slap it all together. Any last minute comments before I order would be great.

Thanks
_________________
"Art, like morality, consists of drawing the line somewhere." -G.K. Chesterson

[illustr8r]

Anyone?.....comments? See anything here that you think I should stay away from? Any items that you think I could get something better for about the same price range or cheaper? Anything I missed that I need to build a complete system?

Here's the basic run down. What do you think?:
(if you want to see more detailed specs look at the big long list above)

Monitors - two 19" ViewSonic CRTs
Processor - AMD Athlon 64 3200
Hard Drive - 240 GB 7200rpm Maxtor Hard Drive
Video Card - nVIDIA GeForce FX5700 ULTRA Video Card, 128MB
Memory - Crucial 1 GB DDR Ram

-Gracias
_________________
"Art, like morality, consists of drawing the line somewhere." -G.K. Chesterson

[UnAlternate]

i'd probably opt for a seagate drive instead of the maxtor. they are known to be more quiet. other than that, sems great! good luck!
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