[Jimmyjimjim]

I recently had a situation that has greatly disturbed me regarding the profitability of art as a profession and I�d really like to get some opinions.

Does it bother any of the other professional artists out there that there are so many new professionals and amateurs out there that give their services away for free? It seems like every other day on any of the cg-art forums there is a request by some upstart company or amateur developer for artwork. Generally all that is promised is �a free copy when (or if) it gets finished� or �I�ll pay you if I ever sell it�. If this were the only issue there would be no issue at all. The problem is, I�m finding that the recruitment of artists for little or no money is happening at larger software firms as well.

For example, a company that I did jobs for on and off recently told me that they were going to have some people overseas do their content for them because they did it for free. Funny thing is that the art director told me that they like my work much more, but because these overseas guys work for free, they decided to go that route in the future. Is it wrong for me to be disturbed by this practice? To be honest, I can�t blame said company to farm out work for peanuts compared to my freelance charge. What is most infuriating is that there are artists (or hobbyists) out there that are actively devaluing a trade. This is far from the only instance of this I�ve heard of happening. I believe I�ve heard some similar stories from some sijuners around here.

I�d really like to hear some thoughts on this issue. Has anyone else around here had a similar problem?

On the other hand, is there anyone out there that has done work for free when they should have been charging freelance rates? I�m really curious as to the reasons a person would put no value to their services. I can certainly understand if a person wants exposure, but it seems to me that they would merely be cheapening their talent.

::DING DING:: Round one�

[Drew]

If you're having trouble with your employers picking up artists for free, maybe you need to take off your Artist Hat and put on your Salesman Hat. What do you offer that makes you worth the money?

[Svanur]

It is becoming more and more common that hobby artists give their work for free since the enjoyment of just having their stuff out there is enough for them. This of course leads to devaluing of serious artists and in the long run can have severe effect on the the profession, as these artists make it look like that there is nothing to it; that you create art only by pushing a single button. The only way of preventing this would be to create a guild system or unions, but since most unions are inept at forcing rules they'd be mostly useless and guilds would only work inside the countries they have any legal power, which would not prevent outsourcing, which is becoming increasingly more common.

What is perhaps funniest about this predicament is that these companies are so blind in their moneygrubbing plans that they fail to see that they are destroying the economy which they thrive upon. If they destroy jobs by doing this, then they are destroying potential consumers.
Its all about marketing and the people who work in marketing are as nearsighted, if not blind, as a mole. Marketing does not care about style nor substance. Their only goal is to get things as cheap as possible, without thinking about the effect of their decisions.
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... and they shall know no fear.

[Riven]

Sadly, this is being done by small AND large corporations. Corporations that should know better.

Their theory is: If you can't do it for cheaper, I can find someone who will.
It's not just art though, it's in many industries (IT especially) who employ contract workers. It is also not just hobbist vs. professionals, it's professionals vs. professionals as well.
Living expenses are high in North America -and with the advent of the internet it is a global marketplace.

Does an established career and reputation protect you from this? Would anyone ever say to Craig Mullins for instance - "Sorry mate, we found someone in (anonymous country) that is willing to work for half of what you charge. "

Some artists are so starved for work that they are forced to take jobs bellow their normal rate...and then the cycle continues...

Solutions?

[Pongo]

I actually see this quite a bit, but I try not to let it bother me much.

I work in an animation studio, and we constantly see this sort of thing. Usually it's in the aftermath where a company has agreed to let someone do something for almost nothing. After finding out that the person couldn't deliver (either in time or in quality) then we have to come in to get it done right. It's really tough to bid on a project when you know you are bidding against someone like this, but the way we do it is to stress the experience and quality we bring. Several times we have lost the bid only to get it later down the road when the other person failed to deliver.

[Svanur]

I don't know of any good solution to this problem. Maybe marketing people should learn more about economy 101 just to see how their actions will eventually bite them in the ass. It seems like they are more focused on Laissez Faire of economy, rather than the whole picture.

Then of course, it could all go to hell; severe depression, money becoming worthless, etc etc. Then perhaps people might see how stupid their actions are. Although, people usually never learn from history
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... and they shall know no fear.

[B0b]

i get this a bit from ppl who come for artwork (not paintings but desgin) and say "we'd like this printed" (handing me a piece of paper with a scribble that they're son/daughter has thrown together on their computer) @ that point i cringe give them a list of printers i use and send them away - they usually come back a few days later asking for the artwork to be re-done...

alot of work that the kids do for fun i find lacks a certain professionalism that detracts from the final product.. but there is some good stuff out there..

but doesn't mean there is work out there for people who have been to college / uni / learnt in the job..

[The Electric Monk]

I imagine companies who employ artists who work for free know that what they're doing is hurting the market BUT, much like with environmental issues, "one more person won't make a difference." Rinse and repeat.
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Gee, I sure like TV. And wearing pants.

[Meaty Ogre]

My freelance carrer is still in diapers... but I'm counting on the old cliche: you get what you pay for. People who give thier work away are generally beginers and if they were making great artwork they wouldn't be giving it away. I push for quality beauty and hope that the rest of the world wants these things too. Idealistic, I know. Capitalistic, I know. I think you should look for some new clients.

Jimmy I'm curious to see your work. Or at least what sort of field is this work in that you are loosing.

I think I speak for many when I say that I've love to hear what the Mullins has to say on the subject.

[Jimmyjimjim]

[Space Monkey]

The problem isn't the artists who offer bargain basement rates. The problem is caused by the clients who don't care if the work is good, as long as it's "good enough". Some yahoo's work which is obviously lacking in the eyes of a professional artist, might not look so bad to a penny pinching no talent Creative Director. People are willing to work for next to nothing in every industry, but the difference is that no one's going to hire an inexperienced volunteer surgeon just so they can save a few dollars. If clients realized that poor quality work brings down the quality and marketability of their product, maybe this wouldn't be an issue. But who really cares about quality anymore...? $$$$$$
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Uhh... yeah, what I just said.

[Unsound]

I find a similar problem with the artists that I work with. It�s not that they want to give their paintings away; it�s just that they seem to have a bit of confidence issues with the work that they produce.

On a few occasions I�ve been with associates of mine at a gallery that we were planning to display our work at. Everything usually goes quite smoothly but when it comes to the curator needing to know what we want to price the work at, there is a lot of stuttering and shifting of feet. So the work ends up being displayed at a price that may not even compensate the amount for supplies that was use for the piece.

However, there is also a problem with the mark-up of the work. When the gallery takes 25-40% of what is sold, you are not really able to sell the work at the price you want because if it is too extravagant, no one will buy the work.

Plus, there are no art collectors in Vancouver.

(Decent art collectors, anyway)

[Meaty Ogre]

I think one major part of this issue is the fact that people love to make art. To draw and paint can bring people alot of instant personal pleasure. And this is important on both ends of the spectrum that we're talking about here. A. the guys on the bottom love to make imagery, coupled with a life long facination with games, comics or movies and you've got a young person that will work for very little. And they make a product that serves the clients needs (which aren't much, sometimes). B. That same passion for making art, the "kunstwollen" (thank you art history class) is what puts the big guys at the top. It's a long haul for them, them could not have done it without being totally fasinated by what they were doing.

A carrer in art is a dubious thing. You work your ass off, and do it in the smartest way possable, for a long time, and MAYBE you'll make enough to live on.

So I dont know that those companies that hire cheap artists are nessasarily shooting themselves in the foot, or undermining their artist base. Good artist will always be around, because we love to do it. The starving artist can have a rich life, if she really loves what she's doing.

[luggage]

In a way this is just from the same reason that no sneakers are being made in Chicago.

Would you pay a premium price for a computer game, comic, movie, coloring book, that has a sticker on it saying "Only Professionally Payed Artists Used In This Production"? ("No slave/hobbyist labour")

Or perhaps more importantly - will the stock owners accept a lower profit margin for the company?

I hate your typical stock owner - they are greedy cheep...

[allpetter]

I work on a warehouse, and I wash cars.
I've flipped burgers and worked on another warehouse.

I have never made any piece of art for money or for free to someone else.
As it is now I paint to learn and to have fun.

Making money doing something different works very fine for me.

EDIT1:
I recently descided not to take a job doing art (nor freelance) untill I'm confident enough about beeing sure of to get paid. I'm going to educate myself a painter first.

To the question if I think it's right or wrong for artists to do art for free my answear is a BIG wrong.

To the question if I think it's right for companies (even big ones) to reqruit freelance artists to do work for them for free I think they are doing the right thing. Why shoudln't they?
In this buiss it doesnt matter if your alittle better than the guys doing it for free. Not unless your a big name.

Before the digital evolution people drew to get food and a place to stay.
Today people just worry to much.

Now, how could someone who never worked with this know/think so much about this matter?

You asked for my Opinion!

ps: Heck I'm only 21 years old, and I've been drawing for abit over one year. It'll be fine.

EDIT2: Correction, I don't draw because it's fun. I'm not exactly laughing my ass of while I'm drawing. It's an exciting thrill/rush to paint though.
Maybe a newly found addiction to me...
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Fru Tina K�ttet

[amichaels]

On the flip side, I can see why some artists might work for much less, or for free. If you're trying to break into a difficult business in the art world, getting your work out there any way you can is something I am sure many of us who are not yet professional artists have considered at least once.

[spooge demon]

I heard a similar argument from a �working girl.� All those stupid women giving sex away for free is making it tough on the rest of us!

I have said before I think there are no absolutes, but here is one- you cannot control what people do. If you are the pope, you can threaten and promise, if you are a king or congress you can write laws and tax (the tax code is the greatest kludge of social engineering around), but in the end people do what they want to do and what is in their best interests, regardless of the economic model. It reminds me of water flowing down a stream, finding its way around every obstruction and through the tiniest passage. That is probably for the best for all of us.

Cheap things can be good. If the quality is �good enough� that means it was efficiently made, with no waste. Everyone benefits from efficient markets, prices drop and the overall standard of living goes up. Read what the life of an average person was life in 1500 and what it is today. Life expectancy is an aggregate of all these benefits, not just better health care. Markets of all types are responsible for this. And markets are simply how people interact when left on their own. I spend what little free time I have reading, and a lot of that is history. Yes learn from history, the modern mind cannot even begin to imagine how nasty life can really be. People complain about how the world sucks today, but the world is in a golden age. I would be happy to debate this with you if you doubt.

Personally I think a mixed economy is best, as laissez-faire capitalism can lead to abuses, but you had better know exactly what you are doing and then with great reluctance interfere with the markets. Then you really are screwing with people�s lives. Proper use of government is prevention of fraud, collusion, monopoly, providing public health and education and defense, etc. But it is not manipulating markets to garner the vote of a squeaky wheel. This just costs more in the long run when you deny market realities, and that inefficiency come out of everyone�s cup eventually.

Collective bargaining can be good, but is just a shell game. The money has to come from somewhere, and it is not in the pockets of greedy corporations, if there is proper competition. You sue for a higher wage, the price of the commodity goes up, and everyone else has to make more money to pay you. They make more money, you have to make more for what they produce.

But you say I want someone to regulate the market so it pays enough that I can have a profession! Hey, I feel the same way! I wanna paint pudgy white chicks in watercolor! But no one wants to buy them. Clearly this means that people are idiots and we need to force them to see the light somehow� Maybe someday they will, but it is up to nobody to force the issue, other than myself if I had sufficient interest.

It does come down to what people value and what you value might not agree with the rest of society. I could see a well-intentioned government bureau deciding that the art on this forum is violent and degenerate and worthless, and shut it down. Best to let the market decide, even if you disagree with it. The alternative is then a struggle of titanic proportions over what to spend resources on, and that gets much uglier than any open market. It seems everyone thinks that their values are naturally correct, and others will see it the same way. Very na�ve.

Markets show humans as they really are, with billions spent on cosmetics and nothing for more �enlightened� concerns. As it should be. The only way that will improve or change this is through education over long periods of time, not through legislation.

So if you are thinking about doing art for a living, consider that it is not a license to practice. There is nothing inherently noble or worth subsidizing about it. You are paid to sell a product, to solve a problem. If the going rate is not a paying wage, do something else. If someone else is cheaper, has lower overhead, you lose, but everyone else wins. So be thoughtful about what you invest your resources towards, become educated about market trends so you don�t get your head taken off.

As far as people saying �Mullins we found somebody cheaper who is good enough�� that has already happened many times, and these forums have had something to do with that. But I am not upset about it, things are as they should be.

[eyewoo]

You know spooge, I've copied a lot of your pictures into my "inspirations" directory. Now I'm going to have to copy that into a new directory for "right-on writing."
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[amichaels]

lol. Apparently I'm a hooker of the art world...

Seriously though. I love art and I'm going to keep producing it regardless of whether or not it ever makes me a dime. But I won't pass us any opportunities to break into the business I want to go into either. If that makes me some kind of hack, so be it I guess.

[mukkinese]

I live in the U.K. and work for a European comics publisher. Theirs is about the lowest rate I accept, but it's fun work and I'm happy to put up with it.

They have several artists, the most popular of whom turns in some beautiful work. I couldn't figure out how he did it, unless he was being paid far more than me...until, totally by accident I came across him in an art forum and we got to comparing notes.

Turns out he lives in a third world country, the cost of living there is a fraction of what it is in the U.K. He spends 4-6 days on each piece and earns a living doing only that. I can only afford to spend 4-6 hours on each piece and then that's only half a days wage.

These are the harsh realities non of us can change, his art is excellent and I can't deny him what we all would wish for; - earning a living doing the one thing he loves.

[radical travis]

[Space Monkey]

Oooh look at me... I'm Spooge... I'm SOOOO smart... lol. Just kidding. I hate to admit it, but you're exactly right. However you've killied my dream of making my first million by the end of the year. Thanks a lot... merry Christmas indeed...
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Uhh... yeah, what I just said.

[cdbeckman]

Craig, That was an insightful post. As a student beginning college and entering the world of graphic design, you've given a very helpful viewpoint that I probably needed to hear. Not that I am changing majors, but it's good to be put in my place as a solution to a market problem. lol

-Chris Beckman

[culfinglin]

[goldenavatar0]

Yea, we pretty much covered that with the amatuers devaluing professional artists, so that's set. But you've got to factor in the overseas artists who are on the skill/quality level and can underbid others because their living expenses are dramatically less then others like Mukkinese pointed out. If the artwork is quality, and the artist can meet a given deadline, does it mean that they are devaluing the other professionals out there or are establishing themselves as professionals themselves? If they are establishing themselves as pro's, then it's just more pirahna in the tank and part of life.
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[:: Digital Marmalade! ::]
[:: SheezyArt Gallery ::]

[Drawnblud326]

So, I suppose I should stop offering my untrained services for a cheaper price, so all of the "professionals" can make a living. Sorry, to step on your toes.

I apologize for my sarcasm, but I have worked just as hard as many other artists here to get my artwork where it is now. I have been drawing for 15 years and every year I evaluate and re-evaluate my artwork and note my improvements and things I need to work on. I respect those of you who have attended school to learn the craft because you have the discipline and will to better understand art and design. I couldn't afford to attend college and right now, at this point in my life, I am unable to attend college. So, since I didn't attend a school to learn art, I should leave myself out of the loop so I don't offend any "professional" artists? I would expect school trained artists to give a certain level of respect of amateurs. We haven't had the training that you have had, yet we still strive to improve through trial and error and our own observations. We have taught ourselves through whatever methods have worked for us. Would I like to attend an art school? Absolutely and I will when I am able, but I will not let that stand in my way of improving my work.

Sorry, but I will offer my services to whomever I please, and if a professional artist loses out because of my cheaper prices than better luck next time. Hey, it works for Wal-Mart.

[losing8streak]

this is almost exactly like the whole, immigrant workers stealing service jobs.

my opinion on the topic is basically this:
whether or not the artist being given the job is doing it for free or for pay, his work is not shit. an employer is simply passing u over, because his work either rivals or surpasses yours. at least in most cases.

it almost seems as though ur just whining rather than working hard to compete with these people. Work won't just come to u, u've gotta work for it. and maybe even godforbid make some sacrifices.

now i'm just an amateur artist, going to art school and maybe i don't knwo what i'm talking about, but to me, theres nothing more important to anything, whether it be a standard job or sports or art or whatever, that there be some competition. and those people who are doing work for free, or for pay cuts are just happy doing what they do. you shouldn't knock them. if that's what devaluing is, then do u just expect everyone to just quit, and let the same six people do work, so that they can skyrocket their prices in a massive monopoly? that's crazy.
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.::[losingeightstreak]::.

[yousir]

yes, free and cheap art labor devalues high-end art labor. its not a matter of opinion economically, but a basic reality. however, economic value is not all, there is always the comparison of artistic quality, which of course varies from case to case.
i think the basic problem, more than anything else, is that our lives run on money. we artists, whether or not we like to admit it, tend to feel that there is something special about our trade. there is not, at least not anymore than another. we are selling products.
but at the same time, if we lived in a society more similar to pre-industrial, pre-economic societies (for instance a hunter-gatherer or nomadic society), wed have to work a lot harder on the day-to-day in order to have the free time to make art. its this tough-as-nails economy we love to hate that allows me to survive by drawing. well see how long that lasts lol
i am a cheap illustrator. i do not work for free and i have my standards, but i know they are lower than id like them to be. my career is in its infancy, and i need the work dammit. and hey, ive been undercut too. it sucks, but so does getting 100 bones for something you worked on for a week. right now i need to get my foot in the door, but i hate working for peanuts.
but peanuts for art is better than a high paying job in an office working for Satan.

[wigin]

Not that my opinion matters or anything....

But im AM currently doing work for free for a Professional animator. First i am Still a College student THough this has hardly anything to do with it. I have to admit i dont have a good resume soo this is something really good to put on the resume. Esp working for people who have good credit. I get to devolop some nice portfolio peices, i get experience and exposure as well as make some good contacts at many studios... What more could i ask for ? All this is definetly worth more then money =p.. On the other hand i wouldnt be doing this for just ANYONE... BUt i got really lucky , I doubt ill ever work for free again.

/plouffe.
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[oDD]