[o0katz0o]

Ok, this is kind of bugging me. I am pretty decent at drawing/painting etc with a reference, but without, I draw like a 6 year old. Should I be worried about this? Well I guess I am worried about this, I was just wondering if you can still call yourself an artist if you draw from reference most of the time or are you not as much of an artist? I'm trying to improve on drawing without, but it's slow progress and not what I'm used to, also very discouraging.

what do people think?
should it matter HOW you made a picture?
_________________
Katie
LUVED.ORG
CREATEDIGITAL.NET

[insanelight]

I use reference too.
If you want improve your skill to draw and paint real forms you MUST use reference because you must copy reality.
For example I love draw human figures... I use reference pic (photos) or real subjects (life drawing) and start from it to achieve what I want, adding details and recreate my composition.
You ask "I was just wondering if you can still call yourself an artist if you draw from reference most of the time", well, I really think yes! Also great artists reproduces the reality, from real subjects yes, but using a photo is not different for me (obviously if you don't make a paintover of the pic).
I really hope you find this my post useful, don't be worried!
Keep up!

PS: sorry for my dog english
_________________
Gabriele Fabbri

My Blog HERE

[o0katz0o]

thank you! yes it makes me feel a bit better, i stil totally admire people who can draw without reference and still produce something semi realistic. I just can't figure out how they do it without. THey must have good memories.
_________________
Katie
LUVED.ORG
CREATEDIGITAL.NET

[eyewoo]

...

[insanelight]

[eyewoo]

I just wrote something that sounded a little preachy, so I deleted it. There doesn't seem to be a way to delete a message, so I just put a few dots...

...so that said, I guess I'll write what I did write anyway...

Essentially I wrote that art is mostly about finding the tools and methods that you are good with and at and then getting better and better with them... Do that rather than envying how other people use tools and methods better than you. Guess, what... they've been practicing. Follow your own path, and there will be many offshoots along the way and opportunities to explore methods and tools... and observe, have patience, be persistant and practice, practice, practice...

(steps off soap box)
_________________
HonePie.com
tumblr blog
digtal art

[insanelight]

Hi eyewoo, I'm happy to read your comment now, I was a bit in anxiety about it... I have felt that few dots in a wrong way, sorry.
Btw, o0katz0o, I advise you to follow eyewoo's post very seriously because I totally agree with him! Practice and observation of the real world is very important.

PS: I apologize again for my bad english, but eyewoo, I have a question: what means the word "preachy"? I can't find it...
_________________
Gabriele Fabbri

My Blog HERE

[Mikko K]

In my opinion it doesn't really matter what your methods are if you get results you like. Anyone can call themselves an artist, so I guess it's okay for you too

Just keep up, you will get better by drawing and painting, don't worry about using refs too much, just do it the way it feels natural to you.

edit: preachy --> to preach --> to talk like a priest you know

[seburo]

reference is important if you intend to ground your work in reality or what people "know to be true." this doesnt literally mean that the work will look extactly like the reference, but you can use it any way you choose. i would suggest using reference, but intentionally being more selective about what you choose to use. for instance, you could do something in which the color pallete is from one reference and whatever is in the picture is from a variety of sources. eventually you should do your own thing, but use the reference to ground it in some sort of reality. then again, i'm a strong believer in grounding "unseen" things in a way that makes it so we can still relate to them. i know this vague, but then again i'm not sure what i examples i can make right now. then again, it could also be milage and drawing parralells between what you have already seen.

[Warhead82]

--- o0katz0o ---

I am in the exact same situation as you are, but i have been talking to many people. Those people that can draw without using no refrence, im sure, they didnt just up and think, oh im gonna draw this, and it turns out that good. They must have used refrence to know what it looked like, sometime before...am i right?

I am still a beginner, farely, still have much much to learn. But, i think i know some that may be useful. I have heard lots of people say refrence is GOOD, and i agree too. I used this picture, of some mountains, and copied it, and then later on i drew a different pic and it had mountains needed in it. But then i remembered how mountains looked from, the refrence pic. Same goes with everything else. Another, thing, already said in this forum. Practise and practise, practising, and drawing really fast but accurate, is the key. For practising purposes. But if you do a real piece dont go too fast.

Try looking, at a picture of a normal person in whatever pose, or take pictures of yourself in a pose. And then use that as your refrence but change it around, strap armour on the guy/girl at all that fun stuff, change the face around, etc. Just use the picture as a refrence, to see where everything goes into place. You know.. Same goes with anything else. Unless, you want it to look exactly like that. Even so if you copy stuff exactly the same. If you keep practising, say humans all the time from ref, it will eventially catch in your brain, and you will burn the refrence forever.

I HOPE I WAS OF SOME HELP. Good luck.
_________________
When you look at a blank canvas or drawing paper, it stares you in the eyes and thinks it can beat you.~ Justin Beckett

[Matt Elder]

I think reference can be good but drawing from life/nature is much better. When drawing from life, you have to look and make decisions and be a more active participant. The more you think about things, the more insight you gain. I find that taking a photo makes alot of those decisions for you and you kinda become a slave to copying what is there in the photo (naturally if you live in a flat area and want mountains, photos are useful).

I guess the main thing is try drawing out in the environment, objects lying around the house so you get a feel for proportion and 'how things work'. Just about all of the great masters of drawing spent alot of time out observing and drawing... it didn't seem to do them any harm.
_________________
See ya on da flip side
Matt
http://www.mattelder.com

[o0katz0o]

thanks everyone! you have all given me good ideas and suggestions. I have been observing out at nature and sometimes I might think I have an image clearly in my head, but for some reason when I try to draw it, it comes out completely wrong. That is very frustrating. Even if I had just seen whatever the image is in my head two seconds ago. I guess because I concentrate on one particular thing, like if I was looking at a dog, I look at its ears, then that's all I probably remember. EVen though I THINK I have the rest of the body in my head, it is blurry.

anyway I will definitely draw and practice alot. ATM I'm trying to digital painting and its tough even with a reference. It's hard making straight / curvy lines with a tablet, even with a ruler, the lines aren't dead straight. I guess that's what SHIFT is for.

thanks once again.
I'll get back to it now.

_________________
Katie
LUVED.ORG
CREATEDIGITAL.NET

[DJorgensen]

Well, I've been watching this thread for a while, and thought that its about time for me to speak up.

To say the truth, almost all of my art never used any references. Every sketch of mine comes out of my head - based upon my experiences in life and my knowledge and understanding of all things.

In the past few months however, I've focussed more on school and scaled back the amount of art that I have been doing. Looking at my older works now, I can see so many problems that I had never noticed or that I did not know how to fix. I personally do not have a problem with this, as it allows me to learn more, but I've realized that in order to become better, I can no longer rely solely upon myself.

So as a result, in the last two pictures that I have started (one of which is a remake of an older picture), I found references to work with the sketch. At this point in the paintings, I must say that I am quite satisified with the results.

I've alwayse been wary of using references however, and convincing myself to do so was more difficult than it should have been. As well I only referenced areas that I found myself having trouble with - like in one picture where I had trouble defining the muscles on someones back.

So, being able to hear what others are saying about references has put to rest some of my fears regarding who uses them and whether or not they are really acceptable. I'm really happy that this thread started at such a perfect time too. ^_^

Thanks all!
Denby J.
_________________

[insanelight]

[jfrancis]

If you want to draw without reference, you need to work like an animator works -- from a solid foundation of 3D construction, and with a clear understanding in your mind of an ideal figure, from which you deviate as needed to draw specific figures.

If you know in your mind how the bones look, and you know all of the major muscles, and how they are shaped and where on every bone each of these muscles actually attaches, then you can draw a basic skeleton in any pose from imagination, and muscle it up from imagination. Like this:
http://www.vilppustudio.com/anatomy.htm

There are 3 main solid, basically unchanging areas in the main trunk of the figure: the skull, the ribcage, and the pelvis. Get those correct in placement, and what's between them is a lot easier to add.

You DON'T need a medical degree to achieve this level of understanding. But you do need a program of systematic study and you do need the willingness to approach drawing in this manner. Every Saturday I study anatomy with this guy:
http://www.vilppustudio.com/classes.htm Look at the fee. For an art class of this quality, I think it's a great deal.

The class is 3 hours long, but only about an hour of that time is actual anatomy lecture. The rest is life drawing. If you don't happen to live near someone who is as good a teacher as this, you can order the DVD's body part by body part and even practice via email correspondance.

If books work for you, then use them. For me, books didn't help as much in the beginning. They mainly overwhelmed me. All I did was leaf through and admire the skill of the artist / author, but I learned very little that I could translate into practical help. Now that I know more, I look at books with different eyes, and they do help more.

Somehow some fine artists seem to think they should just become a bit like human camera obscuras, projecting what they see, and only what they see, into their artwork. Commercial artists, illustrators, comic book artists and animators work more in the mode not of literally copying from the model, but of interpreting, and to some extent, improving upon, the model.

I compare it to screenwriting: when representing life in a movie, do you want to slavishly add every mundane moment and stammer and irrelevant detail like some sort of documentarian with a camera always on, or do you want to present a tight, creatively edited story with carefully chosen moments that sweep you along in a compelling narrative? Life, only better?

There's a place for both approaches in filmmaking, I suppose. And the same is true in drawing.

[o0katz0o]

where is that dvd you speak of?
I can only see head drawing DVDs
I am interested in them as they seem much cheaper.
I don't have quite the money to spend on life drawing classes.
what you said sounds quite hard. Remembering how something works/moves 3dimensionally is my main problem i think. I still interpret them as 2d which is why they look like 6 year old's drawing.
_________________
Katie
LUVED.ORG
CREATEDIGITAL.NET

[Javerh]

o0katz0o, you could try a more hands-on approach to learning anatomy: When you sit drinking coffee, look at other people, compare their physique and try to determine what makes them look different.
When waiting in line, check how people are standing. Try to picturize how their hips and leg-bones support their bodies.
Even when just at home, go occasionally to the mirror and see how you look. If you see a tendon, a muscle or a bone, touch it. Try feel what shape it is and how it's connected to the rest of the body.
This allows you to not only learn how a human body looks but also to learn how a human body reacts to its enviroment.

If it works for me, it might work for you too.

[jfrancis]

Michaelangelo said, "If people knew what it took for me to achieve my mastery, it would not seem to be so wonderful".

as far as the DVD's go, it's best to call and ask them -- or email. But I'm not pushing that guy as a magic bullet. Maybe there is someone closer to you. My main point with him is, he comes at it from an animation background, where you HAVE to constantly invent the figure from every angle from imagination as part of your job. His teaching style can be a little frustrating; it's slow to learn at first, and he can leave you in the dust a bit in a classroom situation. I've found rewatching his VHS tapes helpful.

as far as it being a lot of work -- it's harder than it seems at first, but it is manageable and doable.

as far as life drawing and observation goes -- they certainly won't hurt you, but you'd be surprised at some of the insights another person can give you that you might yourself overlook for a long time.

[o0katz0o]

ok so is that the DVD I should get or can someone suggest a better one? I can't afford drawing classes and obviously good teachers aren't cheap. I have borrowed some anatomy books from the library and have just been copying them. Like someone else said, I don't feel like I'm learning a great deal, it's like I hope I'd get better by just copying them, even though I know I can already draw with reference. The thing is they make the stick figure drawings seem so simple, saw copying them is simple but doing one that looks decent and porportional yourself is tough!

As said before, if anyone can recommend a good DVD, (if not the one mentioned above), please suggest it.
_________________
Katie
LUVED.ORG
CREATEDIGITAL.NET

[jfrancis]

It's true. Proportions alone are a big deal. People who make that look easy have a mental checklist of things to which they constantly refer, and they may not themselves realize how many little checks and comparisons they make. For example, everyone "knows" a slightly idealized human figure is 8 heads high. Quick: without checking, head number 3 falls between where and where? See? You probably don't know. This is why you find proportions a little hard still.

I use head WIDTH measurements. They go like this:

A head width takes you from the top of the head to just below the nose.

The next one takes you to the pit of the neck.

The next one takes you to the bottom of the sternum.

The next one takes you to the bottom corners of the ribcage.

The next one takes you to the front corners of the pelvis.

Half of one up from there is the navel (I think), and half of one below that is the pubic arch.

The clavicles (collar bones) are a head width long. So are the acromion processes of the scapulae (shoulder blades).

You need to locate these features again and again regardless of the pose. You even need to locate them in poses where they are hidden, and draw around to them as if you could see them.

If I had to recommend two VHS tapes, they would be Using Anatomy I and II, which are also called Chapters 7 and 8 on this list: http://vilppustudio.com/video.htm -- but they are not the end of the process -- just the beginning, I'm sorry to say.

I wish I could see these videos by Robert Beverly Hale at the Art Student's League: http://www.jo-an.com/art_video.htm but I don't have the $$$ for that. I notice some libraries have them. Maybe one near you does?

[eyewoo]

Drawing copies of anatomy or anything for that matter does not help much unless you try to relate the drawing to real life observation. Just doing one without the other is a flat experience...

Don't know how it works in Australia, but many US metropolitan areas have inexpensive life drawing classes connected to city colleges, universities, or private art foundations... Check it out in your area...
_________________
HonePie.com
tumblr blog
digtal art

[Duracel]

Drawing with reference is nice ... not to need any references is quite better!

You need References to understand the world you live in, but trying to avoid them while painting will make you independent.

So if there is a need to get "this special picture" the best you can do, use direct-refs where you need them(for example if you sell it and you don't have enough time to "understand" some special problems in there), but if you're just learning for yourself ... doodling some nice shit, there is no need to bind yourself to direct-refs.


Also most times copying from direct-reference with less knowledge while painting is visible, the copied part doesnt "fit" in - especially in termes of "rhythm" and "composition".
So very often the use of direct-refs distracts the viewer. It looks unnatural and has no dynamic in it.

So in the end, the most important part in a picture is "the whole"; and used references for poses or something imported into another environment maybe isn't a good decision. But if you're used to use references you might have no choice.


In the end, noone really cares about the "how to", but the "how to" might change the quality - sometimes in a good, but also sometimes in a bad way.
_________________
Lars G�tze

www.duracel.de Gallery

Detailling a speedpainting is nothing but speedpainting in detail.