[aquamire]

Wow, this is all quite interesting.. Luna I hope that even posting here is safe for you.

As a slight tangent, what is up with the Chinese and internet censoring? Have you had any problems? I heard the Cisco built one hell of a firewall for them.

Im curious to know what its like to use the internet within such a country, where every other kind of free speech is, well, prohibited practically.

[Lunatique]

aquamire- I think I'm quite safe posting in a digital art forum. The kind of websites I visit are websites the Chinese people/government don't know a thing about/can't understand/don't care about.

I mean, why would they care about websites like pennyarcade, fatbabies, sijun, drawingboard, epilogue, various music sites, Korean film discussion...etc? That one dude who posted the horses in discussion--I don't even know HOW he found sijun. That was WEIRD.

Chinese people here only know how to surf the net in Chinese. They are pretty damn clueless about English websites. If they visit English sites at all, it's usually for tech stuff about drivers and operating systems, and tech guru's like that are few and far between, unlike lots of 15 yr-old American teenagers that can build his/her own computer, design websites, hack warez..etc. I'm probably the only person in this entire province that uses an English version of Windows 2000 Pro.

I havn't had any trouble accessing any website yet. This might have something to do with the fact I:

1)Do not use a local email account ran by a local ISP. I use only hotmail, yahoo, and my prohosting account in the States.

2)I don't do suspicious shit like accessing the FBI/CIA/Pentagon sites or correspond with people that work for the American government.

3)I don't go hacking into the sites of Chinese government.

I'm not much of a threat to them if I keep things the way they are. BUT, the second I start sending emails of foreign articles and photos, and start emailing Chinese government websites expressing my thoughts on why they suck horse cock, I would be in serious trouble.

[Svanur]

Here are my 2 cents and I hope I ain't offending anyone.

So far I respect each and everyone's opinion on the matter. I will not say that I know better than people who are staying in China or are living there. Same goes for the States.

But what I can say is that from talking with a lot of people I have come to a conclusion that my fact is, no government is perfect, whether it's American, Chinese or Icelandic. There will always be corrupt people that will do about anything to gain more power. Getting rid of those people is next to impossible.

What I have also found out is that many people are really desperate in getting out of their own country, me included . I have met many Americans who want to get out of the US because they are tired. Some are tired of the lack of Gun control in many states. Other find the US to crowded and want more breathing space. I personally want to get out of Iceland because the government is making me crazy, the taxes are high (the government takes 40% of every persons salary each month, we have to pay taxes when we buy things and we have to pay taxes for owning expensive things yearly. the plus side of all this is that we get free health care and a lot of other things. We have to worry about very little. Iceland is a fusion between capitalism and communism, like many other European countries) and that prices here are crazy, for example: Photoshop costs 1200 US dollars here.

I haven't heard of many Chinese people who are trying to get from China because I don't know any Chinese people so I am unfit to judge those circumstances.

What the world needs to do is become a more of a globalist. Nationality is the wall that seperates people. Then we add in the mix of different languages, skin color and religion. All this keeps us from ever uniting and overcome our petty differences.


Now I will change the subject. The truth is that with progress, more and more innocent civilians get hurt in modern war. Let's take Hiroshima and Nagasaki, then we also have 9-11. The greatest casualties were with civilians. The blast radius gets bigger with each improved bomb, taking each time more and more civilians.

Now I've begun ranting and in a few minutes I won't make any sense

one question though Lunatique:
Is living in Hong Kong very different from living in China in general? I've met a few Icelandic people who loved being in Hong Kong for a few years.

I truly hope I didn't offend anyone with my ranting.

[Lunatique]

Svanur- Hong Kong is night and day different from China. Hong Kong is a modern, developed city that was run by the UK for a long time. You can live like you do in America in Hong Kong. Even though China took back HK, they are leaving it alone for the most part for a while. It's being treated by China as a seperate government.

[Svanur]

k, good to know

[andreasj]

After reading the long posts on this subjects, one thing strikes me. Since when did being anti-communist became pro-american? I thought you guys dropped that with-us-or-against-us-shit back when Nixon was president.

I can�t believe how arrogant the common american addresses the global problems that means life or death for the vast majority of the inhabitants of this planet. "We just can�t win?"

Kyoto
Nicaragua
UN

That�s the honourable USA for me.

[Rat]

andreasj - I agree. It's not only people in the States that ignore problems though. I know some people in Canada that don't care.

Americans rarely step foot out of their own country to go see what's really happening in the world. They are totally ignorant to nearly every other country except their border countries, which they don't give a much of a shit about anyway.

This doesn't apply to all Americans.

When I brought the matter of Afghanistan up with my mom, she told me to "stop being so ignorant," and "there's nothing to defend". I don't really think she sees the fact that she's wrong. (the actual conversation was about how rhetorical the news organizations were being) She's basically been ensnared by the press and what they want you to believe, so she jumps to conclusions about what really happened.

Like I mentioned waaay above, I don't personally believe the States deserved 9/11, but they did have it coming to them. Mostly from their ignorance to the world around them.

(If this offended anyone, I'm sorry)

[Pat]

quote:

---

Originally posted by andreasj:
I can�t believe how arrogant the common american addresses the global problems that means life or death for the vast majority of the inhabitants of this planet.

---

Are you saying Americans have some sort of obligation to care about these conditions? Or some sort of "reponsibility" to do something about other people's problems?

America has always been a "pull yourself up by your own bootstaps" kind of country. Why can't these countries with serious problems get off their asses and do something about their own condition? It's like that old axiom: You'll value something a lot more when you've earn it rather than if it's given to you. Maybe our behavior should be viewed as "Leading by example, rather than by handouts?" Sounds arrogant, I know... but sometimes it is that simple.

-Pat

[Rat]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pat:

Why can't these countries with serious problems get off their asses and do something about their own condition? It's like that old axiom: You'll value something a lot more when you've earn it rather than if it's given to you. Maybe our behavior should be viewed as "Leading by example, rather than by handouts?" Sounds arrogant, I know... but sometimes it is that simple.

---

The problem with that is that a lot of countries can't help themselves. They don't have the resources or whatever.

Take Afghanistan, for example. The Afghans couldn't really help themselves because their government basically wouldn't let them. They've been fighting for about the past 20 years.

If bigger, richer countries helped third world countries out, then they'd be respected and looked up to for their kindness and generosity, rather than being shunned for being too arrogant and greedy to help where they're really needed. Would you turn your nose up at a starving child you see alone on the street?

[Coaster]

Summary: As long as theres at least 2 humans there will be constant war.

Because people think differently they are thought of as inferior. Because they are thought of as inferior its human nature to want to get rid of them. This almost makes me laugh, religions where primarily started to explain things, and because of them started many wars (crusades as example). Will it be the human race's ignorance that kills us all?

About that propaganda website, it would be very easy to send them a flaming e-mail without the possibility of being traced, but why? Assuming they read it... what would it prove? That theres at least one sane person in this self doomed world? It wouldn't change their minds about anything.

I agree with Rat on the americans...

The third world countries are the results of people being greedy and ignorant, sending them food isn't going to help, it'll just make them less willing to work. They would probably have more chance if you left them alone to rebuild their economy, you need to start somewhere. Sending over missionaries will deffinently not help... spreading religion will just raise more conflicts.

Solution:
For now, leave the 3rd world countries to sort it out themselves. If the goverment is too corrupt to allow this it will collapse anyways

~Jeff

[az]

Hi all, I'm normally just a friendly lurker, but this topic caught my interest, since I am Chinese, and I myself have been to China a couple of times in my life.

To Lunatique:

I agree that the chinese government is cruel, corrupt, and unpredictable. They have committed countless atrocious acts in countless years. However I do not believe that looking down on the Chinese people is fair at all. Calling them "fools" is hardly appropriate

First of all let's give these men/women who have lived abroad some credit. They left the country because they know just as most of us do, that life in China is very poor. They know that their government is oppresive and cruel. They simply want to build a more comfortable life in another part of the world. But, having lived a life in China, they probably gained little to no skills in the course of their life, that are required to survive in developed nations such as Canada or the U.S.A. And so they fail at accomplishing anything in a foreign country.

These men are not to blame for their lack of education, skills or inability to learn a foreign language. Most of them being born as a citizen of such a country probably struggled to survive in their harsh environment. How are they supposed to know how to achieve a "cushy job" in a foreign country? Who is there to guide them? Their parents? Friends? The government? I don't think so.

It seems like you're slapping a negative label on them, just because they are unable to be successful. Well, there are many unsuccessful men in this world, but let's give them respect for trying. So what if they're proud of failing. In your eyes it may look like they haven't achieved anything at all, but to them, they probably think that they've gained something very valuable from their experiences.

If you are going to call someone a fool, I hope it is directed to someone deserving of the title.

Of course, I have probably completely misinterpreted your reply, if I have, I hope you accept my apologies! =] You can ignore my above statements if I have.

But I would like you to elaborate more on why you constantly talk like you hate everyone in China. I thought that this was a topic referring to the corruption of the Chinese government, not the radical lives the Chinese people have to deal with.

Being Chinese myself (and having relatives in Hong Kong and China), I can't help but feel mildly offended.

P.S.
Just bringing up my own opinions, so Luna I hope I didn't offend you! All's good in a friendly debate.

*dissolves into darkest corner of Sijun*

[Lunatique]

az- First of all, I want to say I love your politeness. If only everyone could be like that(myself included. I'm an emotional ass sometimes).

I have plenty of Asian friends in the States that arrived in a western country knowing not a single word of English, and had no money. Yet, they worked hard, had discipline, and tried their best to fit in and make a new life for themselves. Many succeeded(worked shit jobs, attended language school, learned English, went to school, and got a cushy job. Some just save up and opened up Chinese resturants).

I've known people who succeeded that's from China too. They are the ones that didn't run back to China with their tail between their legs. The people that went back chose to stay in a bad enviroment that they are familiar with instead of a good enviroment where they'd have to work hard instead of relying on "connections."

If they wanted to get the hell out of China, then they should've been prepared to give it their all to make sure they'd never have to run back. These people have this illusion that live outside of China is a rose garden, and you'll automatically become rich and successful. Then, when they get there, the shock hits them and they realize they'd have to work for their success. BIG SURPRISE! The shock becomes too much to bear.

When I say "fools," I usually mean people that are just clueless. We have fools all around the world. I do have local friends here, and I don't think they are fools.

In general, I do have a low opinion of the average person in China. It's not because they are poor or ignorant, but because they are corrupt, conniving, and extremely selfish. Maybe that's because they were shaped by such a fucked up enviroment, but there are also people here that's nothing like that(people I'm friends with), so I know it's possible for people to grow up in this place and NOT become that way.

Mind you, I don't feel this way about ALL of Chinese people--just the ones in China. People from Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia..etc are much better. Then again, it could be just because they live in a better enviroment.

If poverty and ignorance = bad human traits, then maybe it's inevitable, but aren't there much less developed countries where people are not so greedy, selfish, and corrupt?

Just to make it clear, I hope people realize that I am Chinese, and I speak perfect Chinese and can read/write just as well in Chinese as I can in English. So, basically, I'm not just an outsider making these observations.

[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: Lunatique ]

[turnip]

I was born raised in China and moved to Canada about 10 years ago. My dad currently travels constant to and back.

China has changed..changed so much. It's officially a communist state but man o man everything's under the table. You can't get shit done without bribing. If you're gonna sue another man, you have to bribe the judge, bribe the cops, pay your lawyer. THEN the judge favors the highest briber...etc etc. But you can't stereotype all Chinese people like that. It's a real shame because we know a lot of hardworking people from that country. The system's corrupt and a lot of good people are forced into criminal activities or lose their jobs. Basically, if you don't bribe, you will not get things done and soon lose your job. It's the system not the people.

My father left China to pursue university in Canada. He and us knew very well that life in Canada would be hard. If he had remained in his homeland he would soon gotten a promotion and we would have lived comfortably. We chose Canada, why? Because China IS corrupted. But you have to consider that a population as large as china's would harbour a large number of "corrupted" citizens.

I agree China's not the best country to live in but trust me it's a LOT better now. There's still a lot of good citizens in China. The Law abiding, gentle, polite ones are just hidden under your nose.

In these 10 years I have never returned to China cuz I'm a wuss and afraid of heat.

[Lunatique]

quote:

---

Originally posted by turnip:

I agree China's not the best country to live in but trust me it's a LOT better now. There's still a lot of good citizens in China. The Law abiding, gentle, polite ones are just hidden under your nose.

In these 10 years I have never returned to China cuz I'm a wuss and afraid of heat.

---

Yep, those are the ones I befriend and hang out with. The minority of good people.

Man, the heat IS bad, especially in Fuzhou. Where did you live?

It is a frstrating system that loops itself in a destructive cycle. The people at the top are greedy, corrupted, and power-hungry, and they make the system horrible and unfair. The people underneathe suffer, and when they no longer want to suffer, they have to play the evil games to rise above the suffering. Then, the best game players end up at the top of the system, and perpetuate the destructive cylce all over again.

There's no check and balance here. No one is watching the watcher.

Even good people have to play those games just to survive. My mother is constantly bribing people left and right to get things done. My GF does it all the time too to keep her business running smoothly. If she doesn't, they'd shut her down in a week. BUT, that's as far as the good people would go. They'd never lower themselves to anything more than bribing to survive.

[Christian +]

YOU ARE ALL SOOO ANGRY !!!

You probably are all right and wrong at the same time. It is a LONG thread already and I hope I�m not gonna make it any longer for nothing. So PLEASE READ THIS: (and please, I�m not against anybody)
Something is leading us in the wrong direction and we must find out what it is. You cannot speak in the name of countries anymore. It was so, when countries were tribes maybe hundreds of years ago, and they were so small that people of the same tribe had all the same opinions.
I would say that what is misleading us all, is MONEY ! Yep, it�s as simple as that. Money means Media, media means Propaganda, propaganda means Killings, killings mean Anger, anger means Hate and Violence, means Vengeance. Vengeance is what closes that vicious cycle. If we want to end this, we should either give up our need for money (which is very hard) or be more forgiving (which is the main idea of Jesus Christ) and not avenge anyone anymore.
I�m from Lebanon (Beirut), this small country of which you might have heard about on CNN or other networks, and which you think is one of the symbols of terrorism and war. Well it�s NOT. Thanks to television and media, everything got messed up somehow. When they show you my country on TV, I watch and I don�t recognize any of it, for it is not its true identity.
Identity is what we all are losing. Everyone and everything is going to Globalisation. I�m not defending my country because I don�t care about it anymore, our politicians are all full of shit and they are elected by the Syrian government. So if I�m not electing my leaders, this country is not mine anymore, I just live in it and I have no right of speaking on its behalf.
ALWAYS LOOK AT THE BIGER PICTURE, all of you guys are looking from very close to the events, and worse of all, some of you are referring to stories they�ve heard on TV. DON�T get yourself wrong.
What happened on September 11th, is horrible, sadly it is what has been happening all over the world these last few decades, only for one big difference, it has been Broadcasted on every single channel.
America sure has a BIG influence on the world�s economy and fate. But to say **America**, is wrong, instead, if I could, I should name genius American people and say that if it wasn�t for them, I wouldn�t have a computer and the internet to write to all of you so easily and have Word to check my spelling.
I think we are getting angry over ourselves and not on anyone else. Don�t be angry. Love is what will help us at the end. If globalization is inevitable, let us use it in a proper way and be Children of the earth, not fighting over any piece of land or anything else that doesn�t belong to us.
Thousands of years from now, humans will be saying how violent we were. Violence is today�s most Primitive way of doing things.
Cheer up guys, it�s up to our generation to get it right in a peaceful way.

Thanks for reading this, I hope it added something positive to your ethical way of living.

[Marc]

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[az]

Hey there Luna, thanks for the compliment, I really appreciate it. =D

I agree that it's a shame that there are so many people in China that are so easily influenced. It's even worse that the majority of those that are selfish and corrupted are leaders of the country.

I do believe that the state in which China is in now, is mainly caused by such individuals. But as Turnip has mentioned, it is good to know that the country has made progress.

Thanks for clearing everything up Luna. And yup, there are many good and honest people in China who do not heavily rely on nasty and corrupt alternatives. I just hope that others do realize that there are good people in China.

Fun and interesting discussion, see ya all

[travis travis]

SolarC said:

" I don't think that our politics and capitalist system is much better compared to chinese system. (I don't recommend Communism either.)
Both systems only concentrate on materia and don't value it's citizens, the human mind or mental evolution."

My thoughts are somewhere along that line as well. Hell, even our so-called democracy in the US barely squeaks along. Black listing, interment camps, war decisions basically being in one man's hands... and a hell of a lot more. We are certainly the most secure country in the world but that doesn't mean that our means are pure or that we are pure and that we have it all figured out. Things are pretty bumblesome here as they are anywhere. My high school teachers turn out to be molesters and drunks, I know more then one person well who has a crime committed against them by a cop, and several politicians here in connecticut have been going down for all kinds of moral and blue colar crimes for a while now. The capital machine ain't pretty, and it certainly does little to nothing to raise a people to live for worthwhile values. But is it good to have a few minutes in my relatively secure home to think then being much more subjugated under so-called communism? Yeah. We've got to keep working on this stuff though, society is still very young, and especially fragile. We have to keep examining it and changing our ways

[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: travis travis ]

[Rat]

So greater intelligence is the enemy of government? It probably is...someone who can outwit the gov can also overthrow it.

[social drone]

i bet george bush must be paranoid as fuck...being that the general population of the u.s. is smarter than him.

[Snorkles]

Lunatique- If you feel a very strong urge to share your thoughts about the site with the creators of the site- then loan another computer and do it. Then it would be quite impossible for them to track you down and kill you with samuraj swords.

[Rat]

social drone - lol! Most of Canada too. I could probably outwit him, and I'm 14! (I'm Canadian) I'll bet the only person dumber'n him in both Canada and the States is my sister. Either her or Cretien (I have no idea if I spelled that right).

[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: Rat ]

[turnip]

George Dubya's too caught up with the OTHER communist regime in asia...North Korea's got 'nuff hungry kids as it is.

I used to live in Nanning in Guangxi. It's kinda close to Hainan Dao. If my memory serves me right it was HELLA HOT. My dad currently works btwn Beijing and Chengdu (yum yum sichuan cuisine). The heat's not any better there.

[Lunatique]

Snorkles- That'd make trouble for the person who owned the computer though. . .. If I did it at an internet cafe, they'd get shut down. If I do it on another computer, that person will take the heat.

Either way, I would make trouble for other people.

I get the impression that many people believe the president makes all the decision in the U.S.. That is simply not true. We have check and balance here, and the president can't make a decision by himself.

Georg Dabaya scares me. Let's see if he gets second term.

[Lunatique]

Marc- We've got communist sympathizers in Good ol' U S of A. That sucks.

[Duckman2]

The majority of people in the world don't want war, but it doesn't take many people to fuck things up for everyone, I'm making my own damn country, preferably a south pacific island. it will be a small country, me and my hot and non-westchester native woman. Sorry, had to escape reality for a second.

[ February 25, 2002: Message edited by: Duckman2 ]