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Topic : "Visualization" |
Hothead
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 Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:31 pm |
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Im curious about this.. being quite new to drawing I have been having trouble getting my ideas on paper. I know what I want to do, but I never seem to get it right.
What I would like to know is, when you are drawing something (from you're imagination), do you only know what you want to draw or do you also know how to draw it? What I mean is, do you copy what you see in your mind? Or do you only know roughly how it is going to be done?
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Light
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| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 4:14 pm |
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Last edited by Light on Sat Sep 20, 2003 10:16 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Hothead
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| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 4:34 pm |
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Thanks alot! Very interesting! I've finished reading your 'The Last True Magic ' article. To tell you the truth, it felt somewhat weird. I have visualized drawings before... but drawing them with my imagination is something totally new to me and it felt quite unique.
Thanks again!
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Wren
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| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 6:41 pm |
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Hi Hothead,
Being somewhat interested in Light's techinque, i'd like to know if you found it improved your drawings at all or made it easier to get your ideas on paper they way you see them in your minds eye? I also wondered if you wouldn't mind posting the progress you've made by using the exercises. I'd very much like to see how successful the program might be for those who have a need for it.
I personally have been drawing for so long that for most things i've gone beyond the need for references anyway and since i get paid for the art i do, i have very little time to devote to trying to learn a new method for drawing. But if you wouldn't mind sharing your experiences, i'd be most grateful.
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Drew
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| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 7:18 pm |
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I'm an animation student and I've been drawing for years. I'm not familiar with Light's method's, but my workflow is something like this. I have a pretty good idea of what I want to draw before I start drawing, unless I'm working an idea out with thumbnails. I very quickly draw out the lines of action and basic shapes, making sure that the proportion and composition are correct. From there, I refine the lines, add detail and shading, then color.
I don't always go in that order, and that's obviously a very quick run down, but the idea is to work from general idea towards specific detail. |
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Godwin
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 4:19 am |
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just whack, draw everything you can think of, look at stuff, manipulate stuff
if you really cant draw from imagination... maybe you need some reference and practice more
what exactly are you trying to draw?
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Hothead
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 8:02 am |
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| Wren wrote: |
Hi Hothead,
Being somewhat interested in Light's techinque, i'd like to know if you found it improved your drawings at all or made it easier to get your ideas on paper they way you see them in your minds eye? I also wondered if you wouldn't mind posting the progress you've made by using the exercises. I'd very much like to see how successful the program might be for those who have a need for it.
I personally have been drawing for so long that for most things i've gone beyond the need for references anyway and since i get paid for the art i do, i have very little time to devote to trying to learn a new method for drawing. But if you wouldn't mind sharing your experiences, i'd be most grateful. |
Hi Wren,
I have only used this new technique for an hour and a half last night and have not really had enough time to say if it has improved my drawing skills. But what I can say is, even with the small amount of time I have used it for, with this technique I have been able to spot mistakes I've been making. I also have improved my whole 'sense' of what I intend to draw (I see my character/drawing in more detail and in a clearer fashion).
I will show some drawings once I see a difference in quality. Im very much a beginner, but I intend to improve myself. I suppose im starting about 10 years later then most people. But it is something I have much fun doing and hopefully if I practice, study and train my brain I will, in the coming years be able to draw the way I would like.
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AliasMoze
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 5:02 pm |
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Well I can't compete with better advice from better artists like Light, but I can offer this:
Whatever you're drawing, first draw the outside contour. If it's a human figure, draw the very outside, not detailed but just blocked in with flats, as if you made a paper cutout of the figure. Finding the other details should then be a little easier.
The reason I think this works is that so much of drawing is about finding volume, and it's much easier to find the overall volume and distribution of a figure by outlining the whole thing.
This also helps with cars, houses, or whatever. If you want, give it a try and see if it helps. |
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tbone28
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:00 am |
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| AliasMoze wrote: |
Well I can't compete with better advice from better artists like Light, but I can offer this:
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Wha?  Not to flame Light BUT... I have read your essays and I do get some good stuff out of them and they lack alot of research, contradictions, unspecified referential indices, generalizations not expanded on or clarified..on and on...
It seems to be more of a dump of thought than an actual research.
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Light
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 2:31 pm |
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Last edited by Light on Sat Sep 20, 2003 10:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Les Watters
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 3:25 pm |
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...the shapes will follow. note on drawing. If you want to create the illusion of depth in your drawing then draw out your 3 dimensional forms first. Once you get the forms right in perspective then you can get the silhouett right. Right?
As far as Lights ideas about visulization, I believe he's got the cart before the horse. If you do not have the basic fudamentales down of How to Draw. You know, form, perspective, value, color, anatomy, composition, and such, all the visulization in the world won't help. I think that Wayne Johnson guy had something in the Howard Pyle thing about it being impossible to produce things in your imagination if you don't know the basics.
Could be something to that. 
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Wren
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 4:02 pm |
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Hrm, that's an interesting checklist, Light. Let me take a stab at it...
Do you desire to make drawings/paintings without copying or using references?
I already do a great deal of art without references so i'm not sure how to answer this. But probably No since i don't have a desire to do work exclusively in this manner.
Do you desire to make imaginative drawing/painting without directly copying but by using some form of references?
Again this is something i can already do but usually because it saves time or enhances the believability for difficult angles or poses. But as for doing it out of a want to do it this way, again i'd have to say no.
Do you desire to make fantasy art or art that is highly creative imaginative?
Most definitely, Yes. And i do it on a regular basis, too. 
Do you have trouble getting a drawing/painting to look right, and yet do not why you have trouble getting it to look right?
Nope. If it's wrong i can usually pin-point the problem on my own or by mirroring the piece.
Do you feel that you are not an exceptionaly talented artist? (IE. You have studied the basics, and know them, and yet still have troubles, IE. you started art late in life, ie. you have not been known as a prodigy)
No, i think i may have been something of a prodigy. I am, after all, almost completely self taught.
Do you desire to invent poses or imaginative figures from imagination?
Yes, and i do this often in my work (both professional and personal)
Do you have a desire to work in the fields of animation, comics, fantasy, or concept art?
That would be my ultimate goal in life, so. Big yes.
Do you have often times have trouble drawing anything you deisre to?
Nope. If i have a mind to draw it, i can draw it. If it's something i've never drawn before, i look for references so i understand the subject well enough to know where i want to go with it. But the image itself is usually drawn straight from my head.
| Quote: |
Wren, also.. if you are just doing commercial art then my ideas may not be as valuable to you either because they do require a lot of effort.
However you may still find SOME of my ideas useful especially visualizing to see mistakes, pushing a painting, mirroring work, etc.
My ideas are most useful to people who are begginers and have trouble, and who answer YES to the questions. But, they are applicable also to someone who is good but not quite where they want to be. |
Actually, very little of what i do can be considered "commercial". If you poke around in my gallery, you'll see that i mainly do fantasy illustration for role-playing games. However, i also try to assist and instruct other aspiring artists, which is why i am curious about your thesis on visualization. It tends to stray somewhat from traditional teaching methods (draw from life, use references, etc) so i wonder how effective it truly is. However, given my level of skill, i'm not really in a position to explore the technique myself anymore than i already do naturally (which, as you say, may be what "talent" truly is).
| Quote: |
| As far as Lights ideas about visulization, I believe he's got the cart before the horse. If you do not have the basic fudamentales down of How to Draw. You know, form, perspective, value, color, anatomy, composition, and such, all the visulization in the world won't help. I think that Wayne Johnson guy had something in the Howard Pyle thing about it being impossible to produce things in your imagination if you don't know the basics. |
He may indeed have the cart before the horse, and then again he may not. I personally learned purely from observation with very little formal instruction (and even then, i was almost an adult and had already been drawing well for years). So i have a somewhat skewed perception of what it takes to "learn" how to draw; i've always done it naturally. But learning things like form, perspective, value, color, anatomy, and composition improved my work immensely because it gave me a more scientific foundation to fall back on. In fact, speaking of the "science" of art, it's interesting to note that, during the Renaissance, art finally became an esteemed profession because the artists of the time were able to prove that there was a science to their craft (the rediscovery of math and science being a very big deal then). Plus, with the re-introduction of that ancient science practiced by the greeks and romans, art became significantly more refined and lifelike and continued to do so all the way up until the turn of the last century (after which all the centuries of learning got thrown out the window and art became a form of "expression" rather than the narrative medium it had always been).
Anyway, i digress. Suffice to say i am intrigued by the idea that one can "visualize" their way to better art and would very much like to see a comparison of how it stands up against traditional teaching methods.
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Light
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 4:25 pm |
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Last edited by Light on Sat Sep 20, 2003 10:17 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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AndyT
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 5:05 pm |
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Hehe you guys can really write a lot. Let me try!
I won't read all the comments here. This is just a thought-dump.
(I didn't read the essay until now)
I found it pretty interesting because I recently read in Drawing On The Right Side Of The Brain again.
One thing I don't like about that book is, that it basically says: you can't draw realistic stuff from your head.
Draw from life or reference instead.
It seems as if drawing from imagination would be a good sequel.
I wrote a long reply to a PM some time ago ...
about how you should be able to move objects around in your mind, come up with a good composition and so on ...
if you observe the real thing long enough (how does perspective, light and shadow work).
I didn't even think about that .. and it's hard to explain ... I was pretty exited.
It had never occurred to me that the mind will play a role that important because I always though:
I have to build a library first. Copy reference, draw from life ... because everything else is too advanced.
You more or less say that it is a good idea to practice the visualization part
and observe the real thing at the same time. Right?
I think it's a great idea to observe reality like that (in a playful way)
and being aware of the benefits.
I have to admit I'm surprised. I didn't expect that the essay is that interesting.
I don't know how helpful it is without an visual-artistic background though.
The whole intro is too long though.
What I like about it is that the enthusiasm REALLY comes across.
Some parts just seem too much like a disclaimer.
No spell check this time!
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Light
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 5:16 pm |
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Last edited by Light on Sat Sep 20, 2003 10:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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AndyT
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 5:37 pm |
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| Light wrote: |
Brom, Frazetta, and that guy who uses the intense colors (I forgot his name but I think he worked with frazetta on some projects) have all been known to work without reference or copy.
Drawing on right side of brain is very good but its got some problems too. Too much emphasis on copying, and not enough on art (imo). |
I guess that is what I meant:
Betty Edwards writes:
"you can't draw realistic stuff from your head." (yet) ...
so learn how to draw by drawing from life and reference.
I'd never say "you can't draw realistic stuff from your head" and mean it! 
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Light
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 6:01 pm |
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Last edited by Light on Sat Sep 20, 2003 10:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Wren
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 6:51 pm |
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| Quote: |
you should be able to move objects around in your mind, come up with a good composition and so on ...
if you observe the real thing long enough (how does perspective, light and shadow work). |
That is exactly how it should (and does!) work.
Let me give you a real life, personal example. The single, most remarked upon aspect of my artwork is my use of light and shadow. People tend to be very impressed with how i handle the values on my figures and even moreso when i reveal that i used no references whatsoever. What they are even more surprised to discover is that i learned all about light on figures not by doing figure studies but by doing still lifes. That's right. Those boring excersises of teapots and cow skulls on tattered drappery are the key to my success with light (and texture, and drapery, and composition and...)
The thing is, you can learn about every aspect of drawing simply by drawing absolutely everything and anything. And to be honest, you don't even have to draw it. Just look at it as though you are drawing it. By that i mean, when you are looking at a coffee cup in the morning, look at it as though you had a pencil in your hand and imagine trying to copy all the lights and darks of what you see beore you. Notice how the light hits the rim of the cup and the shadows that are cast by specific shapes like the lip of the cup and the handle. Doing this with common objects in different, everyday settings will really teach you the relationships between things like perspective, light and shape. Eventually you will learn to apply this knowledge to everything you draw.
| Quote: |
How do you KNOW anatomy?
How do you KNOW form?
Ok, and if you say you just "know it" well then you don't really have conscious knowledge of it. Ie, I do know how to walk, but I don't really KNOW how to walk. So, I mean fine that is possible that some people know how to make good drawing like they know how to walk but what they know they cant even say so how could they ever teach anyone? See where I'm going with this. |
Actually a skilled artist doesn't "just" know. They know because at some point they either learned or observed some very basic but consistent laws of proportions. These are simple truths that allow an artist a reference point for ensuring accuracy. Things like, the eyes are halfway between the top of the head and the bottom of the chin, the end of the nose is halfway between the eyes and the chin and the mouth is halfway between the bottom of the nose and the chin. The key is, it's not a matter or measurements, it's a matter of relationships. Where things fall in relation to each other.
| Quote: |
| Example, okay its possible to eyes lie midway on the head, and thats a good general thing to keep in mind but throw in perspective, and it changes. |
And this is where you are mistaken. These relative proportions remain the same regardless of what angle the head is turned at. The reason tricky poses such as having the head tilted back go wrong for many artists is because they forget to apply these relationships. Like you, they think that the perspective will change the relative placement; that since they can't actually see the top of the head that they don't have to think about how it affects the placment of other features of the face. But a quick set of construction lines on any accurately drawn head in that position will always show that the top of the head is indeed still there and that the eyes are indeed still halfway between it and the chin. (If i weren't so tired i'd post a quick red-line on one of my pieces to show you what i mean. But if anyone wants me to and asks nicely, i may do it anyway )
Additionally, not only will remembering those proportional relationships help in creating dynamic poses for realistic humans, it is also the key to creating believable stylized humaniod figures as well. You can't properly distort a shape you don't understand. Put simply, if you don't know what a circle is, then how can you stretch it to make an oval?
Learning to draw is apparently a very involved process. As i said before, no one really taught me how to draw. But i did finally get some education which explained in academic terms the things i was already doing and that education is what i refer myself to when i want to ensure my work is accurate.
What i learned on my own boils down to this:
If you can learn to recognize and apply the basic shapes of an object, then learn to recognize and apply how they relate proportionally to the other shapes within that same object, and then learn how perspective affects shapes in general and apply that information to what you know about shapes and their relationships to each other, then you will have the foundation that is necessary for drawing absoultely anything. All of this can be learned simply through careful observation.
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tbone28
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:43 pm |
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Oh light light light..... I want to read everything you are writing but just don't have the time. The things I do read make me realize that you are still forming this thing. And that is cool. I really commend you on throwing this out there to the wolves. But don't let the negitive comments (I dont see any on this thread yet) to get to you. You explained it well that this is not research and just your subjective observations. But one thing I would caution to you is to make some examples of how your theories work. Otherwise you are just.....talking....... and that is good for theory but not for practicality.
Keep it up. I do think you will be flamed beyound breaking but just stick with it and you will get to some people. Your doc did get me thinking about certian things I really did not pay too much attention to. And that made the doc worth it.
I have alot of thoughts I would like to add to your already somewhat loosly formed baby of a hypothesis. I have been thinking lately about ownership of knowledge. When a person takes responsibility for the knowledge they have and uses it couragously in the face of unrealized negitive beliefs. For example where I work I was performing a job that I asked another guy who did it before me alot of questions. I had all the resources available to answer the questions for myself but I did not want to make a mistake. The day came that I finally took over the job and no one was there to help me thus leaving me to either cave in or make it my baby and take care of it. I would then argue over procedure and process and I would demand explinations to any changes this gave me the power to really learn the job because I was the only one that people would count on to get it done. When seniors would come in and tell me how to do it I would demand explanation and I would fully engage. The same thing happens when I draw the way I have drawn for years. I don't grow as much because I feel I am not really owning those new skills I need to develop. Like learning anatomy. I need to own that but I find myself bowing to other "masters" who display awesome skill. I should not do this. I should let myself find out how it all works for myself and not compare myself to other great artists.
In a way I believe we all owe it to ourselves to realize that no one is better than us. Of course we are not better than any one person but who cares. As long as we keep the big head in check learning and owning the process of making good art is worth it.
If I make a crappy picture and someone critiques it I feel I have a right to say (in my head) what the hell do they know. But I must also own their critique. If I really want to become better. Just never let it kill my inspiration and never compare it to others work.
Hard stuff for me to do though. I work on it everyday.
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Light
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:00 pm |
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Last edited by Light on Sat Sep 20, 2003 10:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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tbone28
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 2:37 pm |
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LIGHT!
You are displaying the saying, "Those who can do, those who can't teach."
Don't do that.........make some drawings and show/prove your "technique."
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roundeye
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 4:13 pm |
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bingo. theres no fat, excrutiatingly unheathy personal trainers for a fucking good reason. thats all there is to it. you can try to complicate the issue all you want with jibber jabber but thats the case in a nutshell. nothing at all on the face of gods green earth will ever, i repeat EVER change that fact! eeeeeeeeever.
fantasy art is gay anyways and to presume teach its virtues i would fully presume that you must have a complete and hearty grasp of all that homosexuality entails before you embark on TEACHING it. are you clean? have you been tested lately? i think not.
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jr
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 6:09 pm |
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cut da jibba jabba fool!
roundeye is right. on a side note, i recently wrote a book about great french tourist spots. i've given a detailed guild to where to go and what to see in france. some of you might find it helpful, i am an expert in french culture. and french sites. also the little nicknacks of the streets in france.
sure i've never been to france, or met a frenchmen, i can fake it quite well.
there really isn't a shortcut to drawing. you have to really learn how to draw. before you can draw out of your head. get some typing paper and just doodle your brains out. just drawing ideas! (gasp! it's that simple!) and the more you do it, the better you'll get. no one's ever gotten worse from practice. draw real life stuff and after you have an idea of how to draw pow
! that bridge from your imagination to your paper will be constructed!. imagine drawing so much that you can draw what you want to draw. getting the drawing almost right. you've got the world at your fingertips!
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Drunken Monkey
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 6:58 pm |
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The only problem i have with you light is your pretense of being the best artist in the world. That is so silly it deserves to be poked. Those sketches were grade school material. Its obvious to anyone who has drawn for a few years, regardless of your endless excuses.
Theoretical stuff you are posting is fine imo, even though its very rough I do find it helpful. I don't know if you are ripping it from somewhere (which is very likely) or not but its a combination of a well documented technique - visualization mixed with everything you've read in the art books. Power readers used this process for decades, people with higher IQ use it to solve problems, and prodigies develop it early on. There are hundreds of books on it. A good one is The Einstein Factor where they called it 'image-streaming'.
Its nothing new that you need to work things out in your head before you put it down on paper. But its cool that you are trying to emphasize it as much as you do. Thats the only merit of your paper imo.
And if you hand't come here with that condescending attitude, you wouldnt have the hounds biting out chunks of your behind right now.
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AliasMoze
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 7:41 pm |
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Well if droning on and on is a talent, I don't think Light is talentless. Seriously, Light, my biggest problem with your posts is that the content could be condensed to a few sentences. It's pretty inconsiderate of the reader to just upchuck so much text and expect him to read it. The other major problem I have is the surmonizing way of writing, as if what you're proposing is the gospel truth. It sounds like what it is, the tendency for the basic learner to preach. And we all do it when we're learning new things, and it comes from a good place - excitement about our education.
My suggest is to rewrite each post, reducing the length by two-thirds, eliminating the repetition and ego-stroking. Then the conversation can be more than one-sided.
And, if you propose a theory, back it up with some successful examples from your own work. Doing so makes it easier to swallow. Evidence is what makes Spooge's advice good advice and not just worthless brain dumps. Excuses, theories, and explanations are for failure. Success needs no explanation. |
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bearsclover
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 8:43 pm |
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See, this insidious conspiracy to challenge the poor misunderstood genius (otherwise known as Light) goes on, even without me...
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Wren
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 7:21 am |
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| Quote: |
there really isn't a shortcut to drawing. you have to really learn how to draw. before you can draw out of your head. get some typing paper and just doodle your brains out. just drawing ideas! (gasp! it's that simple!) and the more you do it, the better you'll get. no one's ever gotten worse from practice. draw real life stuff and after you have an idea of how to draw pow
! that bridge from your imagination to your paper will be constructed!. imagine drawing so much that you can draw what you want to draw. getting the drawing almost right. you've got the world at your fingertips!
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This is precisely how i learned how to draw and is how art traditionally has always been taught. It's a tried and true method that is time consuming and arduous and requires tenacity and love of the craft. And as strongly as i agree that this is the way art should be learned, i can't deny that i am intrigued by the idea that perhaps we artists look for in life what may already be stored away in our brains. I've read other more scientific (and unrelated) theses regarding the premise that everyone actually has a photographic memory and that every experiece, sight and sounds they have ever encountered is encoded on their neuronic pathways. The problems is that most people simply don't know how to access that information. However, any one can learn how to recall those memories and with practice, be able to do so any time they choose. It's a fascinating idea which has as yet to be proven...or disproven. So for that reason, i have some interest in Light's ideas and that is why i want so much to see the results of the process.
Light,
I have to agree with AliasMoze that your writing comes off as being pretentious and that if you'd shorten your presentation and provide some examples of how your ideas helped (or are helping) you, then you would get no where near the amount of flack that you are getting. As unecessary and childish as it is for people to rip you apart, you are being no less so by ignoring good advice about better ways to present your ideas merely because you feel you "have nothing to prove". If you truly want to share your ideas, then you have to learn how to get people to take you seriously. There's no reason for you to martyr yourself by being too stubborn to make your ideas easier for people to digest.
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Now, i think we have hijacked this thread far enough and i apologize to Hothead for contributing to it's change of course. But let's not make it worse by turning this into another "let's rip on Light" post. Please?
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Light
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Member #
Joined: 01 Dec 2000
Posts: 528
Location: NC, USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:52 pm |
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..
Last edited by Light on Sat Sep 20, 2003 10:19 pm; edited 7 times in total |
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AliasMoze
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Joined: 24 Apr 2000
Posts: 814
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 5:18 pm |
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Yeah, and here's a tip, for those taking notes from me:
If you press a pencil against paper and then move it, either vertical or horizontally across the paper plane, it will make a mark. This mark is called a "line", and it comes from the lead in the pencil (rhymes with "bed", not "bead"). Make sure the pencil touches the paper; if the pencil, for instance, is held two feet above the paper, said "line" will not be drawn.
Stay tuned for more tips from the land of the obvious. |
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kimchi
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Joined: 30 Jul 2003
Posts: 140
Location: Canada!
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| Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 5:39 pm |
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| I think perhaps you may be the worst 'artist' registered at Sijun, Light. Make a note of that. |
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