[PaulJ]

First thing I want to say is all the Art that I've seen from this forum has been top notch excellent work! Now for my problem I totally suck! I have tried over and over again to learn how to draw or paint anything and it never comes out right. I tried painting a swords man a few weeks ago and I will leave a link down below. If any of you great artists could give me some pointers or just tell me what I'm doing wrong would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks

PaulJ

swordsman.jpg

[fukifino]

Hey, you seem to be off to a pretty good start. Muscle structure is good, anatomy seems pretty decent, shading isn't terrible. All you lack are the details.

You could easily turn that drawing into a decent illustration if you just take the time. Part of it comes from knowing your tools, of course. Are you using a mouse or a tablet?

If you're using a mouse, you'll definately want to lower the pressure/opacity on whatever tool you're using. If you're using a tablet, make sure that you have your tools set to vary the pressure of the brush based on how hard you push. (Note, I'm assuming you're using Photoshop, or perhaps Painter, although I'm less familiar with the latter) This will allow you to gradually build up highlights and patterns.

Work with larger brushes first, then move on to smaller ones as you need to begin refining the details. Once you have the basic figure down and general color scheme (as you do mostly here on your drawing), begin concentrating on smaller areas and bringing out the detail (I usually start on the face, but it's really a matter of preference...you should probably start with the lowest layer of the figure though, usually the skin, and work out from there on any given section). Reduce your brush sizes, zoom in if you need to, and start making the detail sharper and adding smaller features.

Really, you're off to a good start, just apply some patience and lighten the pressure on your tools to get a more gradual shadding.

[PaulJ]

Hey thanks alot! I'm using a wacom tablet and photoshop on this picture, I will definetly take your advice and start with large brush first and setting my pressure and opacity correctly. I just hope I have enough patience when it comes to the detailing part.

Thanks

PaulJ

[Light]

Paul,

Stop and throw this away. The proportions aren't correct. I know you did a lot of work on this but you've learned a lot and should move on now (imo).

We all have been there where you are and maybe we still are there where you are as this looks original, and those are the hardest.

Here is my lessons for you:

* Work on sketching (forget painting for now)
* Work on visualization (find my article on visualization and study it)
* Study old masters
* Draw from life
* Study modern masters

Okay, you aren't going to listen to me, and want to paint anyway? Okay.. that's fine. Maybe, I'll go back to painting soon too. Maybe, you should work on painting something very accurately just to try to get the soft, hard, and sharp edges.

[merlyns]

[Light]

Here it is:

http://light1.home.mindspring.com/magic.txt

I've thought I might should change this article to be more precise and less motivational but this is it. The most important thing to remember is that visualization is a sensory process. A lot of people have the IDEA that they visualize something but they never really see it. The most important thing to remember is that you MUST REALLY SEE IT to be effective as tool for your artwork.

The other thing is that it may not come easy at first. I work on it quite a bit and can spend hours working to exhaustion.

The other thing you have to be careful with is when you start drawing not to revert to old habits. Say you visualize a great figure with good anatomy and start to draw. Well, you have to be careful that the blank page doesn't bring back the type of self-defeating algorithms and thought patterns. Thought patterns to watch out for are like "connect this to this" instead you should be visualizing and drawing what you see and not what you think.

The other thing I've discovered since I've worked with this process is that it helps to visualize in stages. Visualize both in detail and then simplify because it is not possible to draw the detailed/color images with sketch.

It's not easy but then getting really good probably wont be easy. It also helps if you have just even a basic model or figure to help with your inspiration. I don't do this yet but it does it seem that it would make it a lot easier. Just a basic series of poses of a female can make this process a lot easier or a model and you can do good works that way.

Also, if you want to work on painting then it helps to study Craig Mullins. Now, why his work? Because his sketches show how an artist should see. He really draws reality and doesn't just illustrate like some artist. However, his techniques I'm not sure are the best for beginning artist. They inspire a lot of reaction to the canvas and beginners may go farther by working on sketching. Basically, its possible when painting that way to get a lot of interesting results but harder to flesh them out.

I feel like the ability to sketch will make one a better painter then simply painting will.

Anyway, it helps to study the best, and here are some good painters to study:

Sargent, Hals, Rubens, Durer, Bougera (sp), and many of the old masters.

You should also study the process that other succesful artist use. There are many ways to make good drawings. And here are a few:

* Sketch rough at first to get the proportions and use extra layers to go over the last sketch to make it better

* Sketch lightly at first and then get darker

* Trace contour to get feel and tighten it up as you work

* Use basic shapes like sphere, cube, cylinder -- draw stick men or maniken

* Scribble to find masses and shapes

* Use straight lines to find area

...

Also, visualization I think is most important in learning anatomy. We all know anatomy when it is wrong and yet people say study anatomy. If we know it then we can visaulize it. You can't learn ANATOMY any other way then by learning to visualize. You can learn names but to say you know anatomy is generally to say you can draw something that looks proper.

Study anatomy as you would think about remembering to visualize it. Learn the names but work visualization.. work on understanding the shapes of bones.

One thing that is difficult is drawing things with plane changes such as the feet, hands, etc.

One thing that *might* be useful is freezing a pose. Sensory perception is key but logically holding onto an idea might be useful so that you don't have question as to the vector of the knee as this can pose some problems.

Be sure to try to draw at variety of sizes especially draw big.

Hope this helps.

One more thing that might help.. I'm really bored apparently. If you have a large wacom tablet then build an incline table that can fit onto your desk with a notch on the back, and on the front it should have like a 30 degree slant and a holder notch to hold the tablet so that it fits onto your table. You can use a box to raise the montior up a few inches if need be.

Also, I learned that I could put freezer paper over my tablet and this allows my hand to glide smooth over the tablet. I prefer the slick surface of the tablet actually but the other option is to use gloves and they are more bothersome then using paper.

So always put paper over you tablet if you drag your hand. You will realize the hand sticks to the tablet, and this is a good reason to use paper as it doesnt stick to the paper. Also try to keep the tablet away from the monitor as the monitor can cause the tablet to jitter annoyingly.

----

Well, I'm quite bored. You might also want to think about how space is created on a flat plane, and artist create space. It helps to think about carving into the surface and you can carve into it at any degree of resolution you want. You can carve big or small depending on what you need.

Also think about inside and outside lines. Some lines on the figure are inside and some are outside. Think about the surface structure and imagine it in wireframe like a poser model. You then think about viewing angles and things and get ideas for line intreprertations.

You can think about perspective and break down objects into basic shapes.

Here is an interesting thing too: a good drawing can be represented with suprisingly few lines if those lines are correct.

For painting think about the edges like soft, hard, sharp edges, and think about the overall contrast and color and the abstract shapes first and then think about more detailed shapes. don't forget feeling either.

[bearsclover]

Still touting that damned article of yours, eh, Light?

Why don't you actually make an honest-to-goodness web site with examples of your work, and "inspirational articles," like the rest of us do when we are long-winded?

I can't speak for anyone else here, but my guess is that most people want to see an example of the kind of work their "critiquer" is capable of doing. I dunno�it kind of gives them a feeling of confidence in the critiquer's words, or at least they know where their critiquer is coming from. (I once could not understand what a teacher of mine was blathering about in regards to color until I saw how he handled color, and then it all made sense.)

Of course one does not have to be an artist in order to critique artwork, but the non-artists' critique is usually much different in tone and content from the artists' critique.
_________________
Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.

[AndyT]

PaulJ: Yeah I agree with Light. Do lots and lots of studies.
http://www.itchstudios.com/psg/tut_learn.php
Read many tutorials.
http://www.sumaleth.com/links

But just drawing and painting won't help.
Learn the basics every artist should know.
(Drawing, Perspective, Composition, Values, Color Theory, Anatomy ... )
There are some good informations and links in the Midlle Class @ Conceptart.org (there's a link in my signature)

It's important to understand that most of the great artists here don't just have what it takes and everything comes natural to them.
They just love art so much that they spent a lot of time and energy to improve.
Lung Bug (Mr. T) for example wrote:

[bearsclover]

[retard]

Light (wayne)! You're back!.... and you're still a dick.

Paulj, don't get discouraged because you aren't at the same level yet as the more advanced artists, the only difference between you and them is practice. It's a slow process, but you are on the way.

Forget reading "articles on visualization" and such crap, that's a waste of time. I also believe too many tutorials can be dangerous at this point, they will trap you into step by step processes. What you need, and I believe ALL you should do, is practice like hell! Study the way light operates, the way muscles move and work, not by reading articles, but by actually drawing/painting them. As Craig Mullins (If you don't know who I am talking about, he goes by Spooge Demon here, and he is THE digital artist (http://goodbrush.com/)) has said "I think a better way to learn about art is to look with truly open eyes at art and artists and the world and not use words at all. Soak it up with a different part of your brain."

-Don't ONLY work from your head.
-Craig Mullins has taught, that as you learn, you should focus first on drawing (anatomy, proportions, perspective, etc), then values (lights, darks, shadows), and then color.

Most importantly Paulj, post your work here constantly! Having regular feedback to direct you is extremely important. Posting at sijun.com is like being an apprentice to 50 masters.

[PaulJ]

Thanks to all for the great insight, Im going to try some sketching and reading up. I just bought a book Keys to drawing by Bert Dodson looks pretty interesting. I also have poser 5, maybe it's time to put it to some use and get my monies worth out of the program and do some figure sketching.

Thank you all for the great info I really appreciate it.

PaulJ

[Probustion]

Wayne? are we talking about wayne johnson?
_________________
talent is overrated.

[AndyT]

[PaulJ]

I'm kinda starting to see the errors of my ways. I was relying on too many tutorials this was the original picture that I did of the swordsman it was created with things I learned from tutorials right away you will see major differences.


PaulJ

swordsman2.jpg

[retard]

AndyT,

I didn't mean you shouldn't learn terms. By tutorials, I'm talking about "how to"s. And even those aren't always bad. Infact, it can be very helpful to see another artist's methods. Craig Mullins has made some great ones. But for Paulj, at his stage, I think relying too heavily on them will do more harm than good. Tutorials show one method to approach a subject. From experience, I know that newer artists can become dependant on this, it becomes THE way to create that object. They know that to make a metal surfaces like so and so did for their example, they set the opacity to 50 and the brush size to 40, without ever really learning how metal reflects light, and why it looks the way it does. An artist who first comes to understand how hair, fabric, skin looks isn't dependant on any set method, they can create it numberless ways, because in their mind they understand it. And after then it can be helpful to take a look at how other artists have approached the subject. I believe this is crucial to develop problem solving skills, to be able to look at something and figure out how to do it. To be able to come at an piece with flexibility, rather than having set methods for every different object.

Also, reading is good (like the sargent notes on goodbrush.com) and some is necessary (books on perspective) but only to a point. No amount of reading will ever give you the same skill that practice can. Five months of practice is worth five years of reading (as has been recently demonstrated in another thread).

BTW by reading I don't mean reference like anatomy books, which is necessary.

As for Light, I just assumed that he and wayne where the same person. Not that there is anything wrong with having more than one alias (I use more than one). I could be wrong, but you have to admit, they seem pretty similar. They both talk down to others with the attitude of "I'm the great teacher". Both preach the old masters. And the style and level of their work is nearly identical.

[Light]

I was just trying to give out some help. I'm not Wayne. I've no need to prove myself.

later

[AndyT]

retard:
Ok.
When I wrote that reading many tutorials is a good idea I meant that it helps with getting to know the big picture.
I think Dhabihs tutorial is great ... that's my disclaimer.
If people who are new to Sijun think it's the only way to create digital art it's dangerous though.

If people here point out tutorials (most of the links in Sumaleth's Link Archive for example are good) ...
there are some things that appear again and again (the essentials).
Like: use the biggest brush possible, don't smudge and colorpick, use different opacities, flip the image from time to time to see errors and so on.

I guess I just jumped to conclusions when I read your and bearsclover's posts.
I should have asked what exactly you meant.

It's just that very often after I wrote that one should learn the basics first somebody else wrote: No! Just draw, draw, draw and draw!
That's the most common reply to the question "how can I improve" and I think that it's not enough.
The way you put it now ... I couldn't agree more

About the Light = Wayne Johnson or not issue:
They are both pretty confident and try to provoke.
But I read Light's posts and my head didn't start to spin.
So I'm pretty sure they are not the same person


PaulJ:
The images you posted are both not bad. But the subject is too difficult IMO.
It reminds me a lot of the tutorial by Dhabih.
It's hard to tell what exactly you could do to improve the images.
Maybe you should stop working on them and do some studies instead.
Something else you can do is: read threads in the gallery. What comments do others get.
You'll realize that you get better at recognizing errors sooner or later.
_________________
http://www.conceptworld.org

[bearsclover]

[Light]

Bearsclover, I could say a lot of things to you. But, I will resist.

This is an interesting psycho-social system though that we could really study the method of your attacks, and the meaning behind them.

Here's some advise you might find useful though:

Quit worrying about me so much, and just mind your own business.

You know! People have brains and they can decide if my advise is good or if they want to use it.

You talk about so much how I talk down too people, and yet almost all of my critiques, and advises are precise, accurate, and helpful. I have virtually never said "you suck" which is what a lot of people do here when a beginner post an artwork. I am honest though about how I feel an artist should proceede to get better. If an artwork isn't going to be good then I do suggest they throw it away.

I think a lot of the people have major ego problems.


Speaking talking down to people, I wrote:

"I know you did a lot of work on this"

"and maybe we still are there where you are as this looks original, and those are the hardest."

You wrote:
"Still touting that damned article of yours, eh, Light?"

"I dunno�it kind of gives them a feeling of confidence in the critiquer's words, or at least they know where their critiquer is coming from."

"but my guess is that most people want to see an example of the kind of work their "critiquer" is capable of doing. I dunno�it kind of gives them a feeling of confidence in the critiquer's words, or at least they know where their critiquer is coming from. "

"Of course one does not have to be an artist in order to critique artwork, but the non-artists' critique is usually much different in tone and content from the artists' critique."

----

Bears, you didn't even suggest how you could help this artist get better. Your entire post was an attack against me. And, that's very silly.

You implied that:

A. My advise is somehow flawed.
B. I should prove myself before giving out advise because I'm not a good artist (I emphatetically disagree with both accounts.)
C. I may not even be an artist. Uhm, yeah my ADVISE sounds really like it came from a NON artist. YEAH RIGHT. (esp the "use paper on wacom to increase control... really NON artist talk there")

Your post encouraged Mr. Retard to join the band wagon with this post:

"Light (wayne)! You're back!.... and you're still a dick."

A. I'm not Wayne.
B. I did give out very useful advise.

"Forget reading "articles on visualization" and such crap, that's a waste of time"

A. Apparently Retard doesn't want to hear anyone else's opinion, and doens't think that this artist can think for himself what may be useful to him.

He then goes on to say basically study Craig Mullins which I already mentioned.

"similar. They both talk down to others with the attitude of "I'm the great teacher". Both preach the old masters. And the style and level of their work is nearly identical."

Woah, the old masters... haha that is so funny. Almost every artist has studied the old masters. He also implies that my work is not good, and I disagree with that. Of course, I've never seen Wayne's work so this could be a compliment. However, the use of the word style with identical seems to help make clear that this is just another pointless ego-motivated herd-induced attack.


Bears, anyway I notice you make a lot of post purely about me and not related to the topic at hand. So, I'd just like to summarize my message to you in the polite and effective way:

Mind your own business! And quit worrying about me.

My ego is great, and I don't need your attentions.

[Loudmouth]

[bearsclover]

[Light]

Bearsclover,

"That's what YOU Think. YOU."

Of course, that's what I think. I'm not a liar. If you are not concerned with my own thoughts then why do you care what I think --especially when they have nothing at all to do with you? Especially when I provide my insights for free and without any commitments attached?

"I do not doubt that you have some good "content" in there, but the condescending "read my pearls of wisdom" kind of offsets that. "

I do not ever recall myself using the phrase "read my pearls of wisdom". If a man or woman chooses to give out some advise then should he or she not be confident in the giving out of that advise? Would you prefer me to qualify everything I write with an "this is just my opinion"? Would you prefer me to write out with each of my critiques that "Bearsclover doesn't think I'm an awesome artist. She only thinks I'm a intermediate-newbie so just wanted to advise you on this."? As Ive stated, I don't hold myself to be important as this, and I assume that most artist will take what advise is useful to them, and ignore the rest.

"And they can decide if my input is valuable as well."

Apparently, you don't feel the same about mine. I think you really are concerned about me.

"And another thing�artists can sometimes "get away" with an attitude like, "Behold me, the brilliant artist! I will impart some pearls of wisdom. Gather 'round everyone, and pay attention!" Some artists can do that. But they have to be really AWESOME artists to pull it off. And honey, I've seen your work. It ain't awesome. Oh my word, it ain't that at all. I don't think you can pull it off. "


This is an interesting phrase you use. First, I've already told you that I don't think your logic in evaluating people based on their artwork is a very sound strategy. Second, you are simply stating YOUR OPINION which isn't EVERYONE's opinion. However, I do agree that my work isn't awesome YET. I agree on that point.

I think your strategy has several flaws though. One of the first, is that contrary to what most people are led to believe here (or many people) especially the less experienced folks. They are led to believe that it is difficult to create "great" ie high realistic paintings.

This is completly false. I could take any person off the street who has NO art talent, and within a week or two if they have the proper motivation then they could be doing work that people here would "wow" at.

You doubt me? It is not difficult to copy when you use measurements (and thats not gridding either) and there is nothing inherently wrong about tracing. The painting part itself could be accomplished with a little work. And this would be without tracing and could be accomplished with just a model. The addition of multiple photographic reference, tracing, or other means would make it even easier.

In summary so far:

A. I don't think it is good logically to judge statements based on a person's skill or accomplishments. I mean, I guess some people do flock behind those who have degrees, famous works, a big name, etc. I'm not one of them. The reason we are so "ingrained" to ask for proof by measure of accomplishment is that most information isn't given out for free, and we need some way to determine if we should buy the information or not. Certainly, we should be able to evaluate the information given to us once it is bought to determine its use for us.

B. It is not terribly hard to make what many would call an "impressive" painting if one uses all of the means available to one.

It is also interesting to examine your emphasized use of language, and contrast of language to illustrate how "unimpressive" my artwork is. I do agree my artwork is not great. However, your terribly stressed use of language seems to be yet another attack on me.

"But feel free to try. Go ahead. A lot of us have long memories. And a lot of us have seen your work. And I, for one, find it telling that you won't show it here in a website or something. Interesting. Do you not like to put yourself up to the scrutiny?"

If you find it so odd that my artwork hasn't been qualified here. Then why have not qualified your own artwork here? Also, my artwork has been reviewed here many times, and I got mixed reactions to my work. Some people have even copied my original works. I certainly do not like having to prove myself. Also, I honestly do not think that in such an atmosphere as the one that you've created I could get objective, and fair critiques of my artwork. Certainly, I think showing my artwork here would be inappropriate and on par with going to the inquitions tied to a cross.

Furthermore, you've already stated that nothing less then "really (bold) awesome" would suffice to qualify my comments. I've already stated that I like my work, and I appreciate its strengths, and its weakneses.

"I will never say it is terrible, "

Yet, you certainl felt motivation to imply it. I prefer truth any day, but perhaps you will use these Victorian courtiesies more often.

"But you present yourself as something definitely above an intermediate-newbie."

I don't associate myself with the word "newbie" in any respects. However, I could definetly see how somoene might find me to have intermediate level art skills. Perhaps you will qualify the type of critiques that someone of my status is permitted to give out?

--------

Obviously, some poor joe who happens upon this discussion might wonder what in the world that it is about. Well, Joe, what you are observing is some interesting ego psycho-social behavior. Apparently, Bearsclover feels that I threatened a member of the ruling herd here, and she is acting as a "defender" of the herd, and the status quo.

I'm not an expert on herd dynamics. But, that's basically what's happening. She has a generalized, almost naive, conception of "me" vs "her". She feels that I present a "threat". Her motivations of my showing my work are obviously not simply because she can't reason in the abstract even though she's implied that. We know this because she's already seen my work, and I don't think she has in found in her heart, to take up the guantlet of giving my artwork a fair, sympathetic, and objective review.

No, obviously she wants me to show my work so that she then use it to "attack" me, and attempt ostracize me from what she percieves as the ruling-herd class here.

Her goals would probably be to completly remove me from the "herd". Of which, I've never been a part in the first place!! And, or to demote me to a lower position or rank within the pack.

This same tactic has been used before.

Ah, but you may find this as I do both interesting, and humourous.

But, you may ask, why am I replying to such a pointless discussion? No, Joe, I don't think she would be swayed by anything I say. Basically when dealing with herd dynamics there is really nothing you can say or do to defend yourself. Every verbal defense will simply be attacked, every logical assertation can be used in the inquistion, and the old adage "anything say will be used against you" applies most appropriately.

But, still you ask why have I replied? My answer: We may not control the forces around us but we can always reflect, and try to understand them.

[merlyns]

ahumm.... Light, you might want to update your 'profile'

[Light]

Merylns: heh, I'll leave it. It'll probably be true again.. soon enough. Eh, the truth never changes does it. Nice pointed observation though.

[bearsclover]

[retard]

AndyT,

I agree with you. I should have been more clear, working on the basics is part of what I meant by practice.

Light,

First off, I have to admit that I feel bad about insulting you. I don't personally know you, and I have no right calling you a dick. I honestly apologize for that. Ok, that said, let me pour some piss in the wound.

I wasn't "encouraged" by Bearsclover, but rather some of the things you've said recently;

"Basically, forums like this are not really the best place to have intelligent discusions or get professional level critique." - LIGHT

"So, if any striving artist here really wants to be succesful then I suggest not to post work here or listen to much that is said here. There are only really 3 possibilities. You are not good yet and will get ignored. You are OK and have a chance to get really good (like me) and will make someone mad, and the herd will rag you. You are pretty good and the herd will worship you, and you'll listen to it and be fooled. So, thats why I wont be posting my art here." - LIGHT

When I read wayne's first post, I immediatedly thought of you. And after wayne recently left with the comments;

"You see, in the long run I have no fucking business talking to you people. I have nothing to prove to you. I make my living teaching and selling my work. I don't put on a fucking paper hat a 6pm and go close down Taco Bell. I Eat drink and sleep art, animation, and film. for a living. I was just interested in some fun art debate, but the last lesson I really needed to learn was that I have no fucking business talking to you people!"

I thought back to your original departure;

"I'll be at another more mature forum.. You can change the look but not the people.. outya here."

And now that he has left, you've returned. Coincidence? Perhaps. Let's look at some of the evidence.

1) ART - Look HERE and tell me I'm crazy.
2) ATTITUDE -
"I am a teacher and students feel lucy to take my classes." - WAYNE
"I'd like to offer photoshop lessons...I'm offering this for the exceptionally reasonable price of $65/hour." - LIGHT
"I have nothing to prove to you." - WAYNE
"I've no need to prove myself." - LIGHT
3) TEACHING STYLE -
"find my article on visualization and study it" - LIGHT
"I am just interested in your take on the Form Principle. Now if you have not read it, or if you have not understood it, then please go back and do so." - WAYNE

On the other hand, wayne does use more quotes, and big multi-syllabic words for no reason. I admit I could be wrong. And yes, I AM making a big deal out of nothing. But doesn't it make you wonder?

You said "Apparently Retard doesn't want to hear anyone else's opinion, and doens't think that this artist can think for himself what may be useful to him."

While I was giving out advice, I thought I'd make it clear how I feel about reading such articles. I'm sure it's very good, and you've no doubt worked hard on it. But when compared to the value of actual practice, stuff like that is a waste of time.

You said "He then goes on to say basically study Craig Mullins which I already mentioned." - LIGHT

I didn't say to study Craig Mullins. I gave a quote from him, and a link to his site. Actually, I don't think you should study his art, unless you want to become a clone.

"...He also implies that my work is not good, and I disagree with that. Of course, I've never seen Wayne's work so this could be a compliment. However, the use of the word style with identical seems to help make clear that this is just another pointless ego-motivated herd-induced attack." - LIGHT

Light, I didn't say your work wasn't good. I'd be a hypocrite if I did. I said it was nearly identical to wayne johnson's (and I never said his was bad either). I was giving evidence as to why I suspected you where him. This wasn't meant as an insult. Now, mentioning that you both talk down to others with the attitude of "I'm the great artist" WAS an insult. And that is exactly what you do.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to run you off. I don't think you have to be a great artist to post advice/critics (I'm not), but there is a difference between giving advice and giving a sermon.

[bearsclover]

[Loudmouth]

When you notice that every time you enter a room, everyone wrinkles their nose, your first assumption should be that you smell, not that everyone else has oversensitive noses.

[Light]

I don't feel any need to reply to this as it's pretty much what I layed out from day 1. You will see that I was pretty much spot on target with what was going to happen.

Regarding My Vs Wayne's work. Neither of us were allowed to pick the works that were shown. I personally looking at them and trying to see the similiarities did not. I don't want to say anything against another artist. Some of Wayne's work looked pretty good. However, I do like my works better. It just seems quite different styles to me, as well.

Also, if someone per chance seen these works and desired to see more of my works then I would like to direct you to:

http://light1.home.mindspring.com/copies
http://light1.home.mindspring.com/originals
http://light1.home.mindspring.com/sketches

Additional notices: I think almost all of the copies were made from repeated memory exposures and were not made while the image was in front of me except I think in one of them. The originals were created by Sorayama Hajime, Craig Mullins, Boris Vallejo, "Autumn" by Unkown, and another by unknown artist. I always want to qualify that.

The originals are all 100% original works. Almost all of them were made without reference or copying. For example, the Whiteflower was made without using any reference or copying. The pencils picture was made with just references. The rest were made without reference or copy.

The sketches are mixture of copies and sketches.

None of my finished works were made before I learned the key ideas that I express in my visualization article. I still like them though obviously.

Anyway, I really have nothing much left to say in this thread. I hope some people enjoy my artwork.

[retard]