[Wayne Johnson]

Probably the most disturbing phenomenon in the art of the current century, a result of the dislocation in the dualism of art and science, is the profound pervasive indifference of the whole contemporary generation of artists to formulate a clear cut definition of art itself. The obscuantism, the evasive arguments and denials, the lack of any direct, forthright statement, is evidence of a deep going crisis in art.

The state of art today is such that it can now be performed by tyros and amateurs with virtually no study, preperation, or training. In galleries and exhibitions, the amature esthete can now compete on equal terms with the seasoned, knowledgeable master with such facility that hardly anyone, frequently not even art connoisseurs and critics, can tell good art from bad art, amateure art from professional art.

When the quest for brevity and simplicity has been reduced to infintile primitvism, we have lost the validity of concepts; when the creative urge to reveal life has been distorted into a wayward surge of undirected energy, we have lost control of direction and experimentation; when the search for clarity and order has been diverted to piecing out the meaningless jargon of amateur misbehavior, we have lost our artistic heritage; when definitions, standards, and criteria has been seduced by vacuous emotional mumblings, we have seen the perversion of the philosophy of art and aethetics. When the artist has surrendered his status , his authority, his principles, his professionalism, then the amature has taken over and the jungle is upon us.

The answer to the problem.

The re-establishment of self control in the artist and the social respect for art devolves on creating again a new dualisum of art and science in the twentieth century. The obscure terminology must be claified and attached to commonly-shared associations; personal values must be defined according to generalized experience; the personal subjective purpose must be widened to embrace the broader social goal.

The goal.

To be "art" it should be made responsible for communication of its ideas and concepts; it should reflect the life and times of the artist, his integrity, his ethics, his democratic ideals in the progress of man; it should show his developed skill and judgment in projecting significant, expressive form; it should reveal invention and originality in transmitting the aesthetic experience; and, above all, it should arise out of the environment, the social-human-scientific culture base as the controlling factor in its creation.

Burne hogarth 1957
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Art is long and time is fleeting.

Andrew loomis

[Drew]

How about thinking about something all by yourself and then sharing? Writing what other accomplished artists have already written doesn't really help.

[Impaler]

Did you think that up yourself, drew?

There's nothing wrong with literacy. In fact, if our friend Wayne Johnson here had posted all of that without letting us know that Burne Hogarth had written it, I'm sure most people would have lambasted our poor reprobate here for not having any ethos in the field of art theory.

Although, I will concede that it would be nice to see more than just a repost of former work. I want analysis and interpretation! Insight and and synthesis!

etc! et al! ad infinitum!
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QED, sort of.

[Drew]

[amichaels]

Artists of the world unite! Rawr!

....

*end sarcasm*

[Drunken Monkey]

Wayne have you read through this?

I used to think just like you.
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" - Sigmund Freud

[Lunatique]

Wayne, you are now officially, "all talk, no action." Why don't you just draw/paint more and post your artwork instead? For all this talking you do, your artwork doesn't seem to reflect any greater knowledge or accomplishment?

[Drunken Monkey]

I think he is just under impression that he can change something with these rants of his...

and yeah post some art dude.
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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" - Sigmund Freud

[V Shane]

What does this mean to the production artist illustrator? NUTHING

I am not a bare chested artist slapping paint on the canvas and tossing about with the models one might use (like they were represented in early 50-60s movies) LOL. Its about DOING. Demonstrated action. Do or Do not there is no try - Yoda Hogarth

edit: oops put an "e" on hogarthe

[Impaler]

Yeah, alright, I take back what I said. I didn't even notice the three pages of arabesque pretention three threads below.

Really, Wayne, rules are for those who have no idea what to do. Think about driving: the rulebook you get in driver's ed is 300 pages long, and they are by all means helpful, but once you've successfully parallel parked, or navigated 4:00 rush hour on a Friday, the entire gestalt thing sets in and you realize how many of these rules you actually already knew from past experience, and how limiting it can be to tell yourself to only drive with your hands at 10 and 2.
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QED, sort of.

[merlyns]

...

not another thread like this from you. please, pretty please.

-david
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[bearsclover]

Damn. I didn't know at first that Hogarth had written that. How weird.

He was one of my teachers in art school (Otis in L.A.). A cool guy but he did kinda talk like that, now that I think of it. I remember him pointing to an abstract painting that a student had left in the studio where our class was held�he called it "stool smearing," not "art," but the artist was "expressing their creativity" the same way a baby does when they smear their shit on the wall.

Boy, he got some of the students riled up with that one. But he had a point. The painting was all brown and smeary; it did look like shit was smeared on the canvas.

Sorry, I don't have a whole lot more to add, just had to pop in and go down memory lane with Mr. Hogarth.
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Madness takes its toll - please have exact change.

[Wayne Johnson]

I guess, that posting ideas of great artist and hopeing for some debate is fruitless here.

I have a little story and then I'll part from this site.

My mentor was trained by Al Kurzrok, he drew for Casper, Richi Rich, and at one time was the editor of Cracked magazine. Al was mentored by Dominic Cillieo(I'm sure i spelled that wrong), Who also was of Harvy Comics fame. Dom, was trained by Sheldon Mayer ( Surgar and Spik) who with Max Gains Created the modern comic book in about 1936 (Later EC Comics and then Mad Magazine Bill Gains Max's son.). You can look this up it's pretty historicaly documented. And My mentor, we will just call him Scott since he is still alive and all, has been a professional illustrator for 20 pluse years, I am by no means the artist any of my predisesors are, yet. But I have enjoyed 5 solid years of employment as an Animation instructor and freelance designer. Shit I just made $200.00 this morning for some work I did. But to my point.

all of the things that have been taught to me, shown to me and I have with some success have been able to produce, have come from a solid academic training, that has been passed down from one man to the next. I'm sure each man after awhile had their own spin on the idea, but it is esentially the same stuff. Visual Storytelling. Drawing, Painting, and who the fuck I should be reading and looking at. But there is one thing I haven't lerned from my mentors Yet. And I think you all just helped me fully understand.

You see, my mentor, Scott, when he was a young lad and just starting in the craft, had an encoiunter with a woman who had some of the same attitudes about art as most of the people who have responded to my topics. Scott spent hours arguing with this woman and fully explaining and describing how she had no real working understanding of what real art is. This argument , Scott tells me, went very well in his favor, but the woman was not convinced. So upon Scotts next meeting with Al he told Al the tale. Al listened and heard all that Scott had to say. And then finnally Scott said "So what do you think I should say to her next time?" Al was visably up set, and Scott was sure he would give him just the best comeback so he would be able to zing this lady one more time. But Al Turned to Scott and with a very stern, and almost hateful voice said "You have no fucking business talking to those people!"
and the lesson for scott was over that day.

You see, in the long run I have no fucking business talking to you people. I have nothing to prove to you. I make my living teaching and selling my work. I don't put on a fucking paper hat a 6pm and go close down Taco Bell. I Eat drink and sleep art, animation, and film. for a living. I was just interested in some fun art debate, but the last lesson I really needed to learn was that I have no fucking business talking to you people!

Good day.
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Art is long and time is fleeting.

Andrew loomis

[-Gux-]

[Lunatique]

[Drew]

[Impaler]

So, I guess the lesson you learned is to.. .not talk with anyone who disagrees with you? Good luck with your search for pedantic sycophants who can tolerate your preachiness for more than 3 minutes.

I can't help but get the feeling that you are related to Jerry Falwell.

And, shit. I wish I could get a job at Taco Bell. I'm stuck at shitty Del Taco.
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QED, sort of.

[liv the fish]

Your main mistake was that you assumed that debate would yeild anything productive. In my time at Sijun, I've learned so much about art, painting and illustration. I suspect that if you get off your horse general and take a look around, you might learn something too.

The most important thing I've learned though, is that there are things to learn, even from the people I disagree with. Instead of debating, join in and learn together. Critique some art. From looking at your works in one post, I can see that you could use some group critiquing. As much as you like ride the importance of education, you display a certain lack of understanding how to execute certain things, like specific instances of composition (lack of unity, not making use of focal points, etc.).

Now where's my paper hat...ohhhhh, I work at an Ad Agency! I live and breathe graphic arts everyday, everything from illustration, ad layouts to web design. I'm all around it. And that was your 2nd mistake. You assumed that anyone that disagreed with you, didn't have as much knowledge or experience as you.

You asked for a debate, but when you got it you turned tail and ran. Debate is you taking a side and your opponent taking the other side. What I suspect you wanted was a discussion, but since you presented in debate format, you got the defensive and offensive throwback of the users of this board.

I guess you won't be reading this, but I feel better. That Taco Bell comment really bugged me

later,
Brian
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*This space for sale*

[mOO]

If the pics in the other thread are some of your better work you had better put down the books and start painting you are getting left behind by even some of the newest artists who have only been going at it a few months.

[Rubber Duck]

I loved the first part where you told us you were trained by yoda and yoda was trained by grandyoda and thus you must be a jedi- but then it became a lot less entertaining.

[CwStone]

Well, i do agree with the part where he said something about ametuears blending in with the real talented people cuz i went to the whitney in nyc a week or two ago and saw, on the first level, as one of thier featured exhibits, freakin doodles drawn on freakin loose leaf paper, entitled as "the insomnia drawings." Apparently, this person (whom, due to the quality of his/her work, i thought was some 5 year old kid who hasnt yet developed his motor skills) drew these doodles (200 somethin of em!) inorder to help him fight off an acute attack of insomnia.

Now, this may seem mildly interesting, but seriously, when u think about it, all they are are doodles done at two in the mornin, and some were just scribbles. Why on earth would a museum give such stupid pieces such an esteemed place in their museum?! i ask you! And the worst part by far were these idiots strolling through the exhibit muttering their approval!!! I almost lost it! Sure its the whitney, and a lot of that stuff is that stupid "wierd for the sake of bein wierd" stuff, but i mean come on!! You might as well put together a pile of dirt and sell it as some incredible piece of imaginary art for 10,000$!!!!! And i heard that actually happened!
ill post a picture of the drawings when i find some pics of em.
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-Chase

[CwStone]

heres one



This is probably the best one there. All the others are much worse than this one.
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-Chase

[Rubber Duck]

Sometimes its more about the idea than the result CwStone.
Not everything is meant to be judged by the view of it alone.

[Socar MYLES]

"You have no fucking business talking to those people!"

Are you sure he meant by that what you think he meant by that? I mean, to me, it sounds like what he meant was "You have no business trying to force your opinions on other people, you condescending git!"

...I mean, yeah, it's your story and all, but your interpretation of the remark wasn't the first thing that popped into my mind when I read it.
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Dignity isn't important. It's everything.

www.gorblimey.com - art

[CwStone]

rubber duck i know what you mean, and yes, it wouldnt have bothered me had the exhibit been a bit smaller, containing maybe 5-15 of the pieces. But the exhibit was made up of three long walls. All of them covered with these pics. And it was the only exhibit on the first floor, practicly right infront of the door. Like i said, i wouldnt have minded it if the exhibit was smaller, i probably would'av liked it, but is it really fair to the actual artists (whose work was displayed upstairs) who actually put time and skill into their work for literal doodles to be the main attraction?! I dunno, maybe it was only gona be there for a little while, and maybe i over reacted, but still.

and socar, i dont really know what ur talking about. sry man.
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-Chase

[Socar MYLES]

The remark was addressed to Wayne, not to you, CwStone. I just didn't think the story he told to illustrate his point made a whole lot of sense.
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Dignity isn't important. It's everything.

www.gorblimey.com - art

[CwStone]

o...ok
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-Chase

[Probustion]

what mOO said, i second that. but it's not the reading of the books that's the problem, rather the braggin about it that is eating up all the time you should've spend drawing. art is long and time is fleeting...right?
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talent is overrated.

[jr]

socar's a girl
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[Probustion]

stop making fun of him
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talent is overrated.