[Kusanhagi]

OK This may be a questionable topic but I wanted to get other opinions on it. I worked for both Chaos! Comics and Todd McFarlane Productions and have come to some conclusions. First is that some artists are so good you don't need word bubbles in their work. Take for instance the Cremator series by Leonardo Jimenez. I have copies of the uncolored original art at full size and this guy doesnt need words to impart the story. Every page of this comic book could be a poster of it's own also.
Secondly, some people who have been given great adulation are actualy no-talent artists. Todd McFarlane is my favorite to slop into this category (and it has nothing to do with him firing me for missing work when my 2 year old was hospitalized with a 10 day 102.7 fever).... it's because the more of his work I look at, the more I realize he took it from somewhere else. He has copied (and I mean outright copied) almost everything he has done. Spawn couldn't be anymore Spiderman unless he lost the cape and started spinning webs.....
Anyways, anyone else have any No Talent artists they think are complete frauds?

[Darthlunch]

Hey Kusanhagi,

It seems that most Image and Marvel comics on the stands these days are drawn by no talent artists..

I stopped collecting after Jim Lee/J.Scott Campbell/etc left their respective titles, as the art quality went down heaps after that..

There's still a few good ones out there though, like Kabuki for instance..

[Shrimpish]

Hey, guys, check this out:
http://www.genesiscomics.com/SOTW/index.htm

It seems that Todd McFarlane's name is in there more than a dousin times.

Also, Roger Cruz is a no-good swiper.

[Shrimpish]

This might have nothing to do with the topic, but I think that inkers should be given A LOT! more credit than they are. Michael Turner wouldn't be who he is if it wasn't for his inker. That's the best, most dramatic inking I've ever seen. (in the Fathom)

[Doc Holliday]

HEHEH, here are my picks for no talent artists, every image comic artist, every top cow artist, alot of the marvel guys. Todd Mcfarlane is a very intelligent business man, artist i dont think so. Rob Liefeld nuff' said. Why do i think these guys suck?? cause they along with greedy companies have ruined my love for comics (for the most part. I still buy a few books now and then but not like b4. Jim Lee use to be one of favs but ever since he left marvel hes gone downhill. Now you cant tell difference between jim lee and his countless imitators.

[Grift]

I'm not going to defend any artist named ... but that kind of hostility towards someones work almost frightens me as a young artist. I know a countless number of people that learned how to draw from McFarlane's work .. copies of copies I guess .. but I don't think theres anything particularly wrong with that ... at least so long as they build their skill in their own direction and in doing so your own style developes...ahwell

Grift
[email protected]

[Doc Holliday]

Point well taken, grift. Its just that hearing certain names bring out the worst in me *cough* liefeld *cough*

[This message has been edited by Doc Holliday (edited October 27, 1999).]

[Jesi]

I have to get my own little Leifeld-bashing dig in here. Can't stand that guy's noses. :P

Well, I think that emulating another artist's work is an integral part of developing one's own style. Unfortunately, it seems that this kind of copycat imaging has become mainstream in the comic world. How very disappointing. I'd be more pleased with a comic like Gen13 if the artist who replaced Jeff Campbell brought new life to the characters, instead of being a cheap, flat imitation. I wish that comics explored the beauty in art more often, but I guess it's all about selling, huh? Sex and Michael Turner sell comic books.

Aw, well. What can you do? Let's all band together and create the next wave of fabulously creative indie-comics, eh? But, gee, I would like to make money, too.... It's time to boycott!

[Kusanhagi]

I think this thread can die now... Wish Dhabih would remove it... *grin*

------------------
Kusanhagi

[WildMyth]

Death to All Copy-Cats!!!
Sorry Just felt like doing that when I read this topic. I know its supposed to be dead, but I enjoy reading old stuff. Jim Lee used to be my favorite but as it was pointed out earlier his quality of art work has gone down hill. He doesn't even show up to conventions anymore when he's scheduled for an appearance.
Liefield well he is just a Xerox machine.
Haven't read comics in awhile but I'm betting Frank Miller is still putting out some killer books. I Hope.
Ok now you can kill this thread.


[This message has been edited by WildMyth (edited June 14, 2000).]

[Chapel]

WAIT! WAIT!! Don't kill the thread yet. I have to put in my $.02. The only thing that I agree with in this thread is that inkers should be given more credit. (Along with colorists) However, I think bashing all of these artists is a bunch of bull. First let me say this. I wanted to be a comic book artist like crazy when I was younger. What did I do to try and achieve this goal? I tried to copy the styles of the artist that were popular. Like McFarlane, Lee, Silvestri, and Quesada (who is the man). Which I'm sure is the same that most artists do that want to break into the field. Now if I was the owner of a book and I wanted someone to come in and try to take over the artistic chores.. who do you think I'm gonna hire? Thats right the one that was the most successful at copying my style. Therefore you end up seeing all of these artist that have simular styles. Thats just the way they learned. Now as far as saying Liefield and McFarlane having no talent. Thats a bunch a bull too. If it wasn't for McFarlane Spiderman would be about as popular as the Fantastic Four right now. Say what you want but nobody would have picked up a Spidey book if the art wasn't so eye catching. Now Liefield I don't like. I think his style is kinda crappy, but it sells. The reason it sells is because of the neat pinups, great coloring, and cool composition. (All of which need talent to pull off). As far as telling a story with word bubbles thats great to be able to do, but if dramatic poses and large pinups sell books why should they change? Its a business and they are there to make money. Oh and by the way.. everyone that I have talked to about portfolios to.. tells me to take an old comic story and redraw the storyboard. Eh.. I guess that was more like $1.95 worth.

[synj]

who the hell is leifeld?

-synj

[Briarieos]

C'mon let's be honest, people like Liefeld and McFarlane aren't popular because they are good. They're popular because of marketing. That's all, same as Turner. They are plastered all over any comic related ad in every mag out there and they become familiar to you, me, and everybody else. Because of this, people who make the choices about art in comics decide to have more and more artists emulate those artists style in their comics. They think you want to see it, and let's be honest, most people fall for it. Picking up the same trash by the same company's with the same watered down plotlines and about the same emphasis on sex and story as a porn movie. So who are we kidding. Most of the people who browbeat one hack go like Liefeld go out the next day and pick up Spirit of the Tao(style stolen from Sylvestri) or even a big huge dump of a series like Warlands, Dark Minds, Soul Saga, Gear Station, or dare I say it Fathom. All are horrid rip-off series that do nothing but steal from things you might have liked or would have, but haven't seen them yet. The difference between something like Warlands and the obvious original Record of Lodoss War or Dark Minds and the even more obvious original Ghost in the shell is simple. Record of Lodoss War and Ghost in the Shell were both done by intelligent people (or groups of people) who had an artistic vision and the drive to realize that. They put their @sses on the line to do those works and pave the road so that chumps (like the ones who publish the ripoffs I mentioned before) can come along and take credit for work they really didn't create(just retooled a bit). On my last note, how many people know that Lion King is an exact ripoff of a much better realized vision Kimba the Young Jungle Emperor........ and once you found out how many of you actually cared. Marketing is a tool used to blind us to the truth of the product, look behind the lines of what is said to what is left out on purpose.........

[mantis]

Word Briarieos

[synj]

i feel like defending these people since they can't do it themselves. you can't say those artists have NO talent. I mean, yeah maybe no originality.. but no talent? How many others can throw together scene after scene looking as good as theirs? and since when did drawing anatomy like that require no knowledge or talent? i think some people are just a bit jealous of their spotlights here.

-synj

[Chapel]

This is weird. synj and I agree with each other.

Briarieos - as far as your statements about marketing I agree with you. The popularity they have now are a result of all their hype. However, my point is that the artists do have talent. They are just in a business to make money, so they push out what they think people want to see. Think of it this way.. would you want to be making around 25k to 35k a year trying to be different when you know if you just push out what people want you can easily make 4x as much? Hey I'm all for originality, but I made $50 for a sketch I did of Spawn in McFarlane's style when I was little, and I couldn't pay the people to take my original stuff. (this was to a comic book store)

[Briarieos]

Alright first let me give a reply to synj. Statement one "i feel like defending these people since they can't do it themselves." If you want to defend someone go to Swipe of the Week and look at everyone Liefeld and the rest have stolen page layouts from, defend them... Statement Two "you can't say those artists have NO talent. I mean, yeah maybe no originality.. but no talent?" Yes I can, but I will make it a little easier for you to take. It isn't that they haven't got any talent, let's just say what they had was used up long ago. Now all they do is copy themselves and any one else they think they can get away with. Just so people like you think they can still draw, and come on McFarlane doesn't even do that anymore( His comics aren't even drawn by him, all he does is ink others so that it looks like his style). Statement Three "How many others can throw together scene after scene looking as good as theirs?" See my earlier comment about them swiping from others. Statement Four "and since when did drawing anatomy like that require no knowledge or talent?" You know what, you're right. Drawing anatomy that is supposed to be human yet has no direct correlation to any muscles in the human body has got to take some talent...... right? I've taken 7 yrs worth of life drawing and after that first one, there was no way I could draw anatomy as good as theirs is. Statement Five "i think some people are just a bit jealous of their spotlights here." I'm gonna be completely honest with you, I could care less about their spotlights. In Europe, artists who have definite talent draw comics(most do so in an original style). Those who do, are hailed as artists not hacks. Ever since the self-imposed Comics Code Authority came into place, comics in America have been trapped in a stage of infancy. Whereas books like Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns should have spawned creativity in America, they didn't. People who think themselves artists started to copy them to the point of monotony. You see, Artists as part of their nature should always try to break new ground, not tread along a road already paved.... Which brings me to the point, why would I be jealous of people who whore themselves out just for an extra few dollars. I make 45k a year not counting the freelance I do. I am a Flash animation/Illustrator and do some work in Photoshop. Why do I do that instead of draw comics? Simple. Comics in America are as an Industry, a joke. Yet, comics are my love. To draw comics in someone else's style would be against what I believe. To go against one's own beliefs is hypocrisy at it's best. So I decide to support myself through other methods until such time that I can develop and publish my own work. By doing so I stay true to myself and at the same time do not contribute to the Industry bullshit. Last I checked, what I make is enough to keep me happy. No need for greed. So there you go Synj, my response to you.......
-Briarieos

[Briarieos]

Chapel, your post is easy to reply to. If you are truly "all for originality". Then support it, and not mediocrity. It might be harder to be original. But when you succeed by standing on your own two feet and doing what you know feels right...... there is nothing that beats that feeling, no matter how big the paycheck.
-Briarieos

[Chapel]

Briarieos - You made some good points in your post to synj, but I think you misunderstand what I have been saying. I believe the above mentioned artists do have talent its just that we get the junk they push out to feed their greed. I'm sure they got pics and storyboards at home that are just amazing. Only we don't see them because its not what they became famous over. As far as me staying original.. that is why I'm not in the comic industry.

[This message has been edited by Chapel (edited June 16, 2000).]

[synj]

hehe i didn't even read it i dont have that much of an attention span

i hate people that break up sentence for sentence. you know what i am saying arrr matey walk the plank until it stops arrrrrR

-synj www.synj.net

[Briarieos]

Chapel cool, Synj un-intelligent. Monosyllabic enough for you Synj.

[Chapel]

I'm just surprised nobody said anything about my name. hehe

[Briarieos]

That went without saying, the unsaid was what needed saying.

[WildMyth]

Chapel.....Young Bloods yes? A Liefeld character?

[Chapel]

There is a thread around here that explains my nick.

[synj]

fuck you hehe how's that for un-intelligent you poopshit

[Thorn]

Hey Synj, when are you going to start putting in your 2d animations again. I miss them.

[kurisu]

Hope this helps until synjy poo comes back for the attack...



"The Unintelligent Poop" (...he sure is happy to be working hard!)

-kurisu

[Thorn]

Thanks Kurisu, that DOES help. Feel much better now. Needed a laugh.

And while I think of it, you got me beautifully with your hair picture. I was just leaning in, nice and focused, when your little guy came swinging across, all smiles and big goolies.
Perfect timing. Had me rolling.

(Don't know, Kurisu, if Synj'll come back yet. He's rattled the cage and now he's probably waiting to see if there are any fierce growling sounds)

PS. I just love that little dog of yours. He's so well done. Even his ears flop over as he bounces along.



[This message has been edited by Thorn (edited June 18, 2000).]

[kurisu]

lol Thorn Thanks for your supremely kind words!

For that hair picture, I had to try and make something half-way legitimate to go along with helping in the post... but I just couldn't resist swinging a synj-like character across the screen...

That little dog was really fun to do... cute things can really be calming, amusing and lift my heart up at times! Life's too short to get bogged down with depressing, poopy stuff, know what I mean?

Synj'll come back if the mood strikes him. I think he didn't have much interest in this topic to begin with (no offense to anyone in this thread)... but I can see why he was motivated to defend the voiceless.

I'm not much of a fan of that either. I agree with synj's open-minded attitude. Chapel's additions were nice, too.

Perhaps an easy way of rewording this topic to represent things a bit more positively would be:

Creatively-challenged artists?

Copying takes talent, too. I'm one for originality for sure - but everything has its place. I think everything anybody does is derived from a combination of everything else. It's sort of like copying from many different sources - every moment we exist. I think the difference comes when one copies too much from any one source - making it more obvious to some, and thus raging the debate about infringement.

The philosophy I try to employ for myself is to think about the positive elements of whatever I'm experiencing, try to be constructive and just work on myself, rather than trying to change someone else.

Anyway, I've had 2 hours of sleep in the last 38 hours, so I think I should detach my cerebral plug-ins and catch some z's...

Take care synj, Thorn, Chapel [mystery name-origin and all ] and I'll catch y'all when I return to the land of the living...

-kurisu

PS: Not that I was going for realism, lol, but the pencil's shadow in that poop anim above is totally wrong! Ah well, "it was a shi**y job, but somebody had to do it..."