[Osmodius]

hey, I'm pretty new here, just came to see how I measured up and get help. I'm no pro...all I'm askin for here is a bit of help for a newb to all of the PS stuff. I've loved drawing since I was really young, but not untill recently did I do much...or at least anything worth while or that takes more than about 10 minutes. So my own style is still being developed. I posted my first...well second drawing done if PS, hopin just to get tips and cits. What I didn't expect were pros bashing it, I mean I never said I was great or anything, I need a lot of work. I've never taken an art class, so I've pretty much learned as I've gone. One of the things I've done here. Seems some people want this board to be for just the elite. Maybe I have the wrong idea about this place, if I AM, anyone know a good board for people who don't draw for a living, or are still working on things?

[Socar MYLES]

If you don't flame, don't have a huge signature image, and generally behave yourself, you're welcome to come to Squonky...there's a link to it from the main page of gorblimey.com. You can often get some good (non-cruel) crits there.

For a more social place, with a random-musings type board as well as an art board, try Ebony Keep.

[Gothic Gerbil]

I just went through and looked up your last posted work, if it helps I recognized the character you did. Now as to critiques, don't take them so harshly, they usually aren't personal attacks (or at least shouldn't be) and they will help guide you to the right path if you can take the sometimes (oftentimes?) brutalness of them. At the art school here a number of students get really put off by the critiques from the instructors and therefor they really don't learn as much as they could and I see a lot of them repeating the same mistakes in their next piece. Just develop a bit of a shell and you'll do fine! And of course I highly recommend heading to Squonky's as well!!! Just post here too as I don't check Squonky's as much as here k k? Don't get too down and stick with it!

[the_monkey]

yes i hate you alllllllll. muhahaha

[Jabberwocky]

Hostility towards newb's? Na I wouldn't say that about the whole geocities crap that happened on your post with the outlined guy. They always get into a fight about that kind of hting and get off the subject.

There is some hostility towards newbies because of what happen this summer, but we won't go there!

All you need to do is to post more. Let the older poster know you are seriuos about it and not just anting to cause flame wars... which I must admit those are kinda fun with these people. You get great points of views from both sides and it makes you really rethink the whole situation, but that's only when they actually stay on the subject matter.

You have to form a "name" with these guys. C&C others work. I mean really C&C their work not just the "oh that's pretty" crap.

And you might not get any post for awhile. If you picture doesn't get any work on it where you think it needs the work and repost it a little later with a different name.

I've been here about 2 years. and I still don't get many post with my work so don't feel bad. Just stick it out and once people get to know you and your work things will fit into place.

[roundeye]

dude, that guy was trying to help you! you think he wrote 5 paragraphs to insult you? did you read it? if you refuse to listen to people trying to help you then you will never get better.

[RenaissanceGirl]

Osmodius: I totally know what you mean! Honestly, I have no clue what went on this summer and I read some posts in regards to the incident and it made me a bit intimidated to post my work. I, too, have never taken any art or graphic classes, so everything I know now, I learned through personal trial and error. Then when I read some more Art Discussion posts, I got really intimidated, because clearly, I know very little about color theory and hardly know shading.

But I still want to stick around. I don't think people here have the intention of bashing all of us newbies, but since there's considerably a lot to learn, we get a lot of crits at once and it's hard to shoulder. For now, I'm sticking around and reading everyone's tips until I get a better idea.

While on the subject of other places to go: anyone know any good Macromedia Flash boards?

[Socar MYLES]

Saying you need to start from basic shapes isn't an insult: in the art world, it's pretty much a universal truth. When most artists start a drawing or painting, that's EXACTLY how they start--they block in the basic shapes, and build towards detail and refinement.

I did not see the post in question, but at a guess I'd say that whoever gave the critique was probably suggesting that you work this way, rather than (for example) drawing the eyes first, then the head, then the neck, then the arms, et cetera--starting from details, in other words.

It's sound advice--don't knock it. I wouldn't take that as an insult.

[Gothic Gerbil]

Just so you know, if you ever took some serious art classes, they would start you out with the basic shapes and grind those into you until you either died or got them. Those are the building blocks of basically everything. Once you have those everything is will make a lot more sense and you'll advance a lot more quickly. No insult was likely intended, it is just sound advice.

Ok, the similarity between my last line and Socar's is just freaky.

[ December 18, 2001: Message edited by: Gothic Gerbil ]

[Dr. Bang]

That 5 paragraph of advice is the best damn thing i have ever read. Trust me, you got a much better welcome compare to others.

"Sure crit is nice, but critisizing to the point of saying that I need to start from the beginning, with basic shapes is insulting my intelligence."

Uhhhh NO, HE DID NOT INSULT YOU, HE WAS GIVING YOU AN EXTREMELY HELPFUL TIP! I've been drawing for a couple of YEARS now and i always find my self going back to shading cubes! If you don't know how to shade a cube, there's no way you can move on and shades complex thing like cloth fold, complex surfaces....etc

This remind me of an extremly popular cube thread few months back. I learned so much from it than reading a chapter of art book crap.

[RenaissanceGirl]

Where is the thread in question? And where is this cube shading tutorial you speak of Dr. Bang? I'd like to see the advice and what value it may be to me!

[roundeye]

http://www.sijun.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=5&t=005843

not sure about the cubes.

[Awetopsy]

Hey, dont worry about it too much. I like to consider myself somewhat of a long time resident of this board and I have seen alot of people come and go.

One thing Ive seen is that we have had alot of morons come here to try and disrupt. That included many less-than-stellar pictures posted that had no thought put behind them at all. That also included alot of questions being asked over and over again, such as "which tablet is best?, photoshop or painter?, etc." The result of this was that alot of the pros who learned it all the hard way were answering the same questions over and over, and getting bitter that the newbs' wouldnt go and search the archives to find the answers to questions that had been answered so many times before.

We've also had this board almost shut down because newbies decided they were here to disrupt rather than offer helpful critisism. So the reason why there seems to be hostility towards newbs is this, when you get enough people coming in to cause trouble, you start to get a little wary of everybody who comes.

Here is the advice part: Read the boards, learn as much as you can. Work hard. People will see the development. Be a constructive part of this corner of the internet. Offer advice to those who are below your skill level and learn from those above your skill level. Get to know us, thats what this place is all about...

and I think its a mighty fine place at that!

There's always room for constructive people at sijun, there's no room for disruptive people or whiny/complainy people.

Enjoy yourself here! It is alot of fun.

[ December 18, 2001: Message edited by: Awetopsy ]

[Jabberwocky]

Okay I'm not going to be as blunt as HawkOne I'm going to be blunter why cause I'm tired and I've had to put up with people thinking that good drawings just happens (no practice needed). Okay here are some quotes made by Osmodius in his thread.

Quotes made:

quote

Quote:

crit is very welcome so feel free to stomp all over me...I don't mind. I'm just starting out so the more the merrier

and

quote

Quote:

I never really have taken an art class, and I stumbled my way through PS, haven't had help from anyone...not exactly easy gettin the first drawing right...I appreceate the crits...I gotta learn somehow.

and

quote

Quote:

I was really just looking for comments and things I could improve on from all the pros on this board...not trying to impress, just to get something out there to see what I need work on

First off you didn't take classes so you DON'T know that what HawkOne told you is the very basic of drawing. I had to do those cone, cube, cyclinder, and sphere so many times last year it's not funny. And I've been drawing since I can remember and I'm good at it. I have the awards to prove that I am, but doing those I even learned a lot. And as you said gotta learn some how.

Second don't think just cause some of these people have majored in art or do it everyday they just bash newbies. GET OVER YOURSELF! I'm sure if anyone did the exact same drawing people would say the same.

Third trust me if you plan on doing this for a living or go to college for this you're in for the most rudest awakening you have ever had. College instructors aren't easy. I had one that if he didn't like your work he smashed it gave you a rude comment and had you "start over".

Fourth You asked for his help and he gave it. If you can't handle that then don't post asking for it. DUH!

Fifth you said

quote

Quote:

I was hoping there was a place for us less advanced people on this board, without being bashed too badly by the people here who have majored in art and who do this for a living, but I guess I'll hold of and not post anything for a while...maybe I'll be welcome in a year or two...

. If getting honesty on how to correct and better your work is too hard for you after asking for it then you might want to tryhere.

Sixth listen to the people giving the crit. Trust me you haven't even heard bashing yet. They know what they are talking about why because they are

quote

Quote:

people here who have majored in art and who do this for a living

. These guys just didn't sit down with their tablet and start drawing like they do. They practice daily in between stuff they are doing for clients and/or projects for school.

Seventh honestly you outline is good. Your colouring and shading/highlighting is going to need work. Flesh for instance is made up from tons of colours combined (got the whole lecture earlier this year on another thread). This is caused by lighting, shading, and reflections. Use some shading is the clothing as well. You mainly left it a basic colour with highlights. Use tons of shade and variations of purples and reds in his clothing. Also don't just take crits from you're pictures. Understand those on other threads as well cause you might need that advice later.

I myself have never taken a class that taught PS. I am self taught myself, but with tons of hours of practice and a lot of help from the guys on here I can do pretty good, but nowhere near some of these other guys (I'm mainly board art). Once you get better at it the crits will be easier and not as long, but first you have to get through the basics. We all have had to.

[ December 18, 2001: Message edited by: Jabberwocky ]

[Dr. Bang]

RenaissanceGirl, this is the thread i'm talking about

http://www.sijun.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=5&t=004660

[c]

well i have to admit hawkeye was kind of blunt, and i disagree with some of the things he said, but you gotta admit you kinda asked for it. there isn't much sympathy here for people that state flat out that they suck or whatever. even the crappiest artist needs to have an element of pride so people dont just trash him left and right.

my suggestion? unless you're living in the boonies there ought to be a local city college around you. it should be dirt cheap, and it should offer some decent art classes like figure drawing/painting, intro to drawing, etc. you don't have to be a 'pro' or a ... (grins) 'pro art student' or anything like that.

if you don't want to go that route, or you just want to draw as a hobby, that's cool, but for the people on this forum art is not simply a hobby, it's our livelihood, so.. you know .

btw, generally, a 'pro' will never trash someone else's art, unless in a really bad mood or something. part of being professional is treating other people with class and respect.

[ December 18, 2001: Message edited by: c ]

[travis travis]

"but critisizing to the point of saying that I need to start from the beginning, with basic shapes is insulting my intelligence."

hahaha! listen bro, they're just trying to save you umpteen-thousand dollars a year on an art education by telling you what you'd get there. I think your 'intelligence' is getting ahead of itself here.

let's be clear for a minute - your skill in the basic craft of art/illustration is basically dependent on your own choice to follow the path and do the work, or sit on the sidelines and keep trying to dream dabble your way to goditude. I'm not trying to be harsh here - I'm just saying whether you have basic technical skill in it is dependent on things like 'exercises' and 'learning' and little else. In other words, creativity and technical skill are two different things, and in the long run if you want to use art seriously it's generally more respected if you have bothered to learn some skills as well.

you don't have to be interested in technical skill of course, it's a choice, but the majority of people here are and will try to help you from that viewpoint.

[Lunatique]

I read the original thread, and I absolutely agree with the others.

You are damn lucky you got 5 paragraphs of VERY helpful, no beating around the bush C&C. Do you even realize how damn lucky you are? One out of how many newbies get one fifth of that?

HawkOne was being very generous with his time and patience, and you aren't even grateful. If you want serious, to the point C&C, then PUT YOUR STUPID PRIDE ASIDE AND BE HUMBLE. Even if the C&C rubs you the wrong way, TAKE IT and try to LEARN SOMETHING from it.

The problem is this: most newbies have NO idea what the professional art world is like, and how much discipline and hardship is takes to become a good artist. Most pros struggle their entire lives to be the artist they dream of becoming, and never getting there. THAT'S HOW IT IS.

On the road to becoming a pro, you will get insults and cut-downs from art directors, fellow artists, older artists, editors, clients..etc, and most will NOT be as kind as HawkOne. It's because you've never been in the serious art enviroment, so you took helpful C&C as insult. Dude, you are IGNORANT.

And you wonder why there's hostility towards newbies?? Now you know.

[Osmodius]

I didn't say he wrote 5 paragraphs to unsult me. Just a bit harsh is all. Sure crit is nice, but critisizing to the point of saying that I need to start from the beginning, with basic shapes is insulting my intelligence. Of course I'm not perfect, or even very good. I'm not saying that I didn't listen to it and think about it. And I'm not just talking from my own accounts. Talking about what I've seen on different posts. I hope this doesn't make me seem like a winer or anything, just trying to set things straight and understand.

[HawkOne]

Talking about the devil eh ..

Let me qoute myself : "Now I know that this may sound disheartening, but it is really not what I intended. EVERYONE who wants to learn how to draw, must realise that you can only benefit from learning how to crawl before you can walk."

Now that is what I really meant, I apologise if I hurt someones feelings in the process ..

Now I'll just go and give myself a lethal injection of Heavy Metal ..

[RenaissanceGirl]

First off, thanks for the links to the Sijun lessons thread - I will be breaking that down tonight! Maybe in no time, I may be able to actively participate in the other forums instead of just warming up the bench.

Now I read the original thread - initially, I did feel that Osmodius was being attacked. Not because HawkOne pointed out a lack of grasp of basic knowledge. Being compared to a 10-year-old and words like "plate of slimy pasta" would make anyone want to burn any evidence of their attempt at art.

But after reading on, clearly, there is a lot to be learned by HawkOne's response. I'm sure he didn't mean to attack you or question your intelligence. And after all, he did state that it wasn't his intention to dishearten you - but just giving you some advice! I totally know how they (the "pros") feel too: I've had "n00bs" approach me to look at their websites and when I point out the basic website faux pas in a blunt manner - they scream bloody murder instead of, for instance, removing the annoying scrolling text from their website.

Anyway, again, I may not have as much professional experience as other people on this board, but as a newbie myself, I gathered a lot of valuable knowledge from this book:Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain by Betty Edwards.
Give it a spin! It's a good investment and pretty cheap relative to paying for school.

[RenaissanceGirl]

Ooops, you just posted that reply while I was typing up my last one (I know, I just can't shut up ). On the contrary, I don't think your unfamiliarity with Photoshop is what's hindering you. I know you want to believe otherwise, but I think you still have more things to learn about shading. For example, in your drawing, the highlights just fall different places on different parts, making the lighting inconsistent and thus unrealistic. Thinking and seeing are two very different things, which is why (I don't mean to reference the 10-year old thing) people who weren't "blessed" with natural artistic skills or don't receive formal training "draw like children." This is exactly the argument in "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain," which is why I think you could really benefit from it.

Once you know (truly know) these basic concepts, it should transfer well into Photoshop. All you'll need to know then is to select the airbrush/paintbrush/eraser tools and to select color - which clearly you already know how to do based on that drawing.

[roundeye]

"I'm not JUST talking about ME"
*scrolls up n reads*... yeah you are, chill.

dont change yer stance now. you asserted a position. members, using gathered evidence, refuted your claims. nobody took what you said the wrong way. your position was written using very short, succinct sentances.

anyhow, whats happened here certainly does not reflect the 'nature of the board'. youre garnering quite the attention here with your petty complaints. some might even be so bold as to call you an 'attention whore'. not me though.

[christian cox]

I'm a "newb" as you say, and yet I haven't seen any hostility towards myself from others. Most of the regulars here seem to be well mannered with newer people. Perhaps it's the attitude of the "newb" than has caused a hostile reaction, or maybe someone just didn't have their coffee

[Osmodius]

wow this got a large responce...i STILL think people are taking what i said the wrong way...I'm not JUST talking about ME...yeesh come on. I DID say that I listened to all that, didn't say i thought that it was crap. Cut me some slack here. I've done plenty with basic shapes. I know that's how you start but I'd like to think I'm a bit past that by now. I understand shading, just new to PS so it might not look like it. Ok...I wanna make this crystal clear, half of the response I'ce gotten are based off of "He was helping you" I know that, so... here goes...I was NOT just talking about that, sheesh...I've been looking around the board and have seen other instances. So enough with the 5 paragraphs were meant to help me...I KNOW that.
One thing i forgot...I was just trying to find out the nature of the board, sorry hawk if it sounded like this whole post was regarding what you said, because it's not...people just took it wrong. Sure when I read it i was offended at first, but even after I started this post I've thought more about it and it is good advice, just seemed offensive at first. I was being a bit defensive.

[ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: Osmodius ]

[Jabberwocky]

Roundeye - I'm bold enough.

Osmodius - you ARE an attention whore.... and when you said:

quote

Quote:

I know that's how you start but I'd like to think I'm a bit past that by now. I understand shading, just new to PS so it might not look like it.

You are far from "past that". Just because you are using a new type of medium doesn't mean you would NOT know how to shade... If you actually knew the basics of shading it would show in your work, and it doesn't.

RenaissanceGirl - you are right about the "unfamiliarity with Photoshop is what's hindering you"

christian cox - You prove a good point. I haven't seen any hostility towards newbies.

Osmodius - where are you said:

quote

Quote:

And I'm not just talking from my own accounts. Talking about what I've seen on different posts.

I want to see these said threads! I want to see how mean and barbaric we've been tot he newbies!

And please STOP contradicting yourself...

[ December 20, 2001: Message edited by: Jabberwocky ]

[Gothic Gerbil]

Maybe he means not commenting on their artwork? That might be barbaric? Or how we respond to [666]flat types? Blah.

I certainly wish I could get an extensive critique and helpful suggestion like HawkOne did for your post. As mentioned before, most don't get much more than a line or two, much less a helpful line or two.

[pipedreamer]

Sometimes an encouraging word is more helpful than all of the advice in the word. If your advice sounds harsh it can stomp on that gentle flower of ambition. However if you can offer your advice in a kind manner, with maybe a 'Good effort!' that is enough to help a person to continue on and learn what they need to learn. This is not the army. Art lessons don't need to be drilled. Art is supposed to be a fun and enjoyable expression of yourself.

This is a place for ANYONE to come and share and learn together, yet instead Osmodius feels he is not welcome to post for another year or two. That is ridiculous! Some people learn much faster than others, especially in the right enviornment.

Isn't this supposed to be one of those enviornments??

[Gothic Gerbil]

Cuddling illusions and couching everything in flowery terms instead of just the blunt truth so that no confusion is left is not really a helpful environment. And anyhow he did specifically ask to be critiqued. A useful critique is not a cute fuzzy lil' bunny. It can be a down right painful exercise in shattering of illusions, which in the end if you can place your ego aside and work with the critique, will make you all the stronger of an artist for it. If he doesn't want a real critique and just wants "Good effort!" types of comments, then perhaps he should say so next time. If you're wanting a group hug instead of a group critique, then honestly mayhap this is not the best place to be.

[Vesuvius]

the only newbies I'm hostile towards are assholes like yourself. you didn't even read the responses to your threads. 1 person in 1 thread of yours said something slightly critical, and it had a lot of helpful comments mixed in, and you go on and on about how antagonized you and other newbies are. it has nothing to do with antagonizing newbies. it's antagonizing 'special' people like you who don't bother to think or learn or read and expect special treatment or praise over self-professed shit level art. grow up. deal with a single fucking crit without whining on and on. READ the god damned replies and use your little brain. or leave if you can't deal with it. because people who want to try, to listen, to learn, and to share in appropriate manners are more than welcome. but this isn't daycare and none of us owe you any special treatment.