[Raji]

Now before i just make myself look like a complete moron, i do want to say that as an immigrant, i love america and enjoy blending into its culture. I am arab, but i grew up in Belgium for the most part and i have enjoyed learning to blend into its culture as well as australian culture while i was there.

However, i found this forwarded e-mail to go beyond patriotism... This forward was just stupid. Some dumbass sat down and wrote a bunch of big words he picked out of a dictionary and openly said that if anyone doesn't like certain things about america, then get the hell out. Fuck that!! I've had gripes about *every* country i've been in because there is no such thing as a perfect country. I don't remember seeing "Utopia" on the world map anywhere, so there's no reason why people shouldn't have reasons to complain about any country they please.

I have tons of gripes about america. I have even more gripes about belgium too. I had gripes about australia...and so on and so forth... But i've never found those to be anywhere nearly annoying enough to make me want to leave the country!! They're just gripes!

The worst thing is that it seems to me that it's mostly americans who oppose things like war against certain countries, americans who complain about their government... is it wrong that americans should complain like that? of course not!!!! Americans have a right and dare i say a duty to complain/point out problems with their country so as to make it a better place to live. But why is it that immigrants who live in the same free country cannot express their honest opinions about it without being told to get the hell out??

Before this turns into a flame war (and i REALLY hope it doesn't turn into one -- i just wanted to vent about what i found to be an annoying forward), i want to make it clear once again that i do love america and americans. I agree with a lot of what is done politically, morally, etc. I don't want to give the impression that i am in any way trying to be degrading to anyone, and if anyone thinks that this post has some inapropriate comments, i will gladly take them back.

Thanks for listening and here comes the forwarded e-mail.

Raji








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After hearing that the state of Florida changed its opinion and let a Muslim woman have her picture on her driver's license with her face covered, this is an editorial written by an American citizen, published in a Tampa newspaper.

IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans. However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the "politically correct" crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others.

I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to America. Our population is almost entirely made up of descendants of immigrants. However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand. This idea of America being a multi ~ cultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.

We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Portuguese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language!


"In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.

If Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great American freedom, THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.

If you agree -- pass this along; if you don't agree -- delete it!

AMEN

[Giant Hamster]

As they say, "When In Rome - Do as the Romans."

I do feel that when in America you should speak American - just as if I moved to Japan I'd learn Japanese. Those who don't shouldn't be there.

[egerie]

ok. I'm at a bias but the only thing that article cruelly lacks is NUANCE.

[balistic]

It's ironic that those who would be champions of patriotism spend so much time defending English, the language of the monarchy we so strongly rebelled against.

Fun fact: "In God We Trust" was added to our currency in 1861. Prior to that, the only national motto used was that of "E Pluribus Unum" which means "from many, one."

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-- Thomas Jefferson

Our Constitution ... has not left the religion of its citizens under the power of its public functionaries, were it possible that any of these should consider a conquest over the conscience of men either attainable or applicable to any desirable purpose.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Reply to New London Methodists, 1809

Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

America was founded on liberty, diversity and fairness. No amount of historical revisionism will ever change that.
_________________
brian.prince|light.comp.paint

[Raji]

Giant Hamster,

i speak american... hehe. Trust me, i have no accent and i've loved blending in since i've been here.

There are some things however (minor things mostly) that i have problems with just like i have had problems with other countries. I didn't set out to change anything, i just dealt with it. I only *wish* i could change certain things i guess.

What confuses me is why i can't have the same right americans do to complain about certain things and set out to change them if i/they so desire...

Raji

[Matthew]

Somehow I find that the mail above has lost the Democrazy thinking. You should do this you should do that, is that democrazy and is that the way to be free?

[Raji]

Bush did make some seemingly careless comments during his presidency... but the one matthew quoted was, in my opinion, the all time worst.

"You are either with or against us". With that one line, bush bought himself and only the more ignorant part of the world's population the right to hate and attack anyone they can stick a "terrorist" label on. If you're not with america, you are supporting terrorism... Geez... France is not a terrorist country and has no intention of harming the US.

Why bush had to try to convince the world that everything is black and white is beyond me.

Raji

[Svanur]

I, myself, think that it's vital for immigrants to adapt to a different way of life. Learning the language is something that will help the immigrant, not others, if the immigrant wants to get a better job or educate himself.

What I find most disturbing about this is this "God" clause. I believe in a freedom that allows people to do the things they want as long as it doesn't affect the freedom or the rights of another individual. In other words, a muslim/buddhist/christian is free to practice his religion as long as he doesn't need to jump into my house and cut my throat in some goodwill gesture towards his god(although I seriously doubt there are religions who ask for such ).
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... and they shall know no fear.

[Awetopsy]

Im not sure if the person who wrote this article is professing to be a christian or not, but if he is, he certainly doesnt seem to be walking in the love that christianity promotes.

John 3:16 "For God so Loved THE WORLD (everybody in it)....."

in galations it says "Do GOOD unto ALL men(and women)...."

Yes, the founding fathers of america built america around the old testament books of the law AND around liberty, diversity and fairness. No historical revisionism is needed for that. a little bit of research can plainly reveal that.

[Impaler]

[Mon]

Amen to that.

/mon
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www.mattiassnygg.com
Blog!

[Giant Hamster]

[Matthew]

Yeah Giant I can see your point there.

Matthew

[Lunatique]

I was born in Taiwan, and immigrated to the States when I was 11. I have witnesses many Asian Americans who immigrate to the U.S., then proceeds to speak Chinese only, listen to Chinese music only, goes to Chinese restaurant only, read the Chinese newspaper only, goes to karaoke/bars owned by the Chinese only, and hangs out with other Chinese only. They come to this country to take advantage of all the wonderful things it offers, yet does not bother to give one bit back into this society. They shun people that aren't the same race as them, or speak their language, keep to themselves, and cares about nothing that happens in America. They walk around with reverse racism attitudes, thinking "Americans are so stupid and uncultured," while enjoying all the benefits of being an American.

It really disgusts me.

When I went to take my oath to become an American citizen in 1991, I saw an outrageous number of people who were getting their citizenship, but barely spoke English, or understood a damn thing about what it means to be an American.

I agree what that email forward 100%, except the God part, since religious freedom is an important trait of the American culture, and not seperating the government and the church is lame in my opinion.

[Sumaleth]

Culture has a huge influence on people. And anywhere that two different cultures come together is always going to be a boiling point because neither culture wants to lose ground.

The irony of course is that our cultures are ALL the result of past cultures merging together to create something new. It's an evolving process, but we grow up with the irrational belief that the culture we were born into is the best one ever and it must be preserved at all costs.

People should be able to live any way they like. If they want to live in the US but only speak Italian, well that's up to them.
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Art Links Archive -- Artists and Tutorials

[Giant Hamster]

[Impaler]

[Ragnarok]

[Giant Hamster]

Ragnarok: Your point for quoting me was? =P


Your Point seems to be that Spanish comes from Spanish People and American's don't speak the original language of America.

My Point was It doesn't matter one way or another which Language was first - as most places don't even have their original language. It's just a matter of if the language of an area happens to be [Insert language here] then you better learn it.

So we're on the same line other than I don't see why you had to point out that Spanish comes from Spanish people. =P

[Ragnarok]

o_�
I've misunderstood what you said, I thought you were talking about the original language in america. Sorry!
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"Ever forward, my darling wind." -Master Yuppa
Seigetsu

[Lunatique]

What it means to be an American:

Here's an example. My own brother, who's 3 years older than me, is one of those people that do not deserve an American Citizenship.

He lived in the U.S., just so he could benefit from an American education. He graduated from San Francisco State University with a Masters Degree in Political Science--with the sole purposed of using it to further his political career in Taiwan. Despite years of living in the U.S., he couldn't care less about the country. He doesn't have any friends that are non-Chinese. He barely speaks to people outside of the Chinese race. He doesn't give a fuck about what's happening in the headlines in America. If the U.S. had any kind of crisis, whether economically, politically, or socially, he barely notices or cares.

YET, he owes the American government student loan money close to $60,000, and this does NOT include his credit card bills, which probably adds up to 6 figures.

The first thing he did after graduating with his Political Science degree was "Get the fuck out of the U.S. and back to my own country (his exact words), leaving a debt of 6 figures unpaid.

He USED the United States, benefitted greatly from it, and couldn't care less about the country.

Our differences in our disposition has caused a tear in our relationship. I'm a proud American that loves his country and cares for it, while he, only came to use its resources, and maintains that the Chinese is a superior race, with superior culture, and he couldn't care less what happened to the U.S.. (Of course, unless it directly affected his life negatively--but that's out of selfishness, not actual caring.)

There are many others like him. THAT is what I have a problem with.

[Drunken Monkey]

Hey!

<myWorthlessOptinion>

I am a Russian speaking Ukrainian living in us, I love my culture, and I also understand where that letter is coming from, although I think it�s ignorant.

I don�t live in a Russian community, there is like 5 russians/ukrainians in my village� I mean town. I learned to adapt and can tell you that after 8 years here I think in English, I love US, the people, and the way things are done. If you think any of that is wrong � you can blow my goat.

I've also lived in Brooklyn for 3 months, and met some Russians who although left former USSR, didn't really leave it at all. They barely spoke any English because they only learned enough to get by on their jobs. They had that nasty thick Russian accent that only people who really don�t care to learn and pronounce English would. They read Russian newspapers exclusively, watch Russian TV, and only have Russian friends... Coming to work i made a bunch of friends with everyone� the americans I worked with would tell me that my Russian friends (who also worked there) freak them out, and that I was the first normal �Russian� they met. I knew exactly what they meant.

People who come here from different countries have a severe culture shock. I mean, when I came here and found out that the HS class scheduling system is the same as in college back home � it freaked me out. The way random people smile at you for no reason and say �How are you doing?� and �What�s up� - freaked me out. The way people talk and all these little things that amount to a myriad of nuances and differences really gets to you in first couple of months or even years. So I can totally understand why some immigrants choose to crystallize in their own culture given the chance. I didn�t have that luxury, so I had to learn to be like an American. Baseball and �Football� and prejudice towards mayonnaise burgers still don�t make any sense though.

The point is most immigrants lack the testicular fortitude to dive into a foreign culture. Maybe they are afraid to lose their own, maybe they don�t know how to mix the two or maybe they don�t see any benefit in doing so. And you know what, they do get by. So just leave them alone. No one is forcing you to listen to them. Maybe they will Americanize maybe they won�t. Try to understand why people react they way they do. It�s not because they are asshole foreigners (although I�m sure some are).

My advice to them: be cool, act american. Try mayonnaise burger at least once.

</myWorthlessOptinion>
_________________
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" - Sigmund Freud

[Ragnarok]

I agree with you Luna, here I've met similar people although in a different context.

Here, in the north of Spain we have a problem. A portion of the inhabitants don't like Spain and want to be an independent free country. But many of these people speak spanish, benefit from the spanish government and universities and yet they hate Spain. I still don't get it.
Also, I've seen how some american persons and US media defend these people in their struggle to become an independent country, but any of them have taken the time to actually know about these people. If they did, they'll discover that there are no historic origins in their demands.
And this problem is what causes terrorism in the north of Spain.

So, I think that if you live in another country you must adapt to an extent.
_________________
"Ever forward, my darling wind." -Master Yuppa
Seigetsu

[Impaler]

Don't forget Quebec.
_________________
QED, sort of.

[[Shizo]]

[Dr. Bang]

[Drunken Monkey]

word up shizo.
_________________
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" - Sigmund Freud

[gezstar]

[strata]

First off I'd like to state that I have NOTHING against arabic/muslim people, they just happen to be the ones that are represented in this problem.

I try to be as tolerant as possible, and even though it bothers me I don't make an official fuss about it, but we have a bit of the same problem that luna is describing (both in his views of how to treat a country that takes you in, and how his brother is acting)... Sweden has taken in a LOT of immigrants over the years, and because of wars they have been mostly arabic, and those mostly muslim. Not a problem so far.

The thing is, the arabic/muslim culture differs rather widely from the swedish/protestantism(is that what it's called in english? Martin Luther anyhoo) culture, and Sweden being the utter complete sissy nation it is, sort of in the late seventies kiiind of, possibly, perhaps, all things considered, maybe put forth an act to assimilate the immigrants into the Swedish society. Mind you, this was not saying: "You - new. You - change."
it was more along the lines of: Here's a little leaflet about how we do things in Sweden, take a moment to read it when you get a chance and then you can do whatever you please! ;P

Anyhow, my point! After a while some retard though it might be considered racist or intolerant to make people HAVE to change just because they can't live in their culture any more for whatever reason. So, what we got was muslim schools... they teach in arabic (or whatever the language(s) is called) and they only teach muslim teachings... ie, no darwinism, science or any of that good stuff... note, on top of this like luna said, they all pretty much live in the same area where they only meet other muslims.
So what we get because of this, is people who've lived in Sweden all their lives. Don't speak a lick of swedish. Carry with them the same rules that apply in their country and have no place in Sweden. Treat women the same way they do back home (and I'm sorry to go up against islam as a whole here, but some of those views are just disgusting), and thus live on welfare wondering why noone will give them a job.

Thus they go out and steal and rob (and I'm not just shooting my mouth off here, they (immigrants, not arabic people)) are grossly over-represented in crime statistics. Thus making swedes even more scared of immigrants (keep in mind that swedes are inherent ninnies), which makes swedes move out of the areas heavily populated by immigrants, leading them to meet even less swedes, and thus the dark circle is apparent.
To be added to the matter is that when I graduated high school, we were not allowed to sing the nation anthemn because that was considered racist. Also there was talk of not raising the flag for the same reason.


And this bothers me. Mostly it's the muslim schools. If you come to a country that's taken you in because your own has buggered itself up/gotten buggered up by a neighbouring force, then show SOME appreciation. Learn the language AT LEAST.

My gf (american) has been here since October and she already understands/reads/writes swedish fluently... only her pronounciation is holding her back a bit... Even she reacted when we met an Iraqi guy our age, who'd been here five years and spoke about 3 words of swedish and even less english. HOW is he going to possibly become a productive member of society? Being a leech is disrespectful to the country that harbours you.

</rant>
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Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?