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Topic : "Why are Bush and Co. so eager to start a war?" |
antx
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 Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2003 9:20 pm |
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>> The people for peace have the idea that if their country isnt at war, then the world is good and fine. <<
On that one you make it your self a bit easy I think. But that would explain why the "weasel" thing came up. In fact it would have been easier for germany and france just to work along with Bush. They would get protests from their people like in UK, Spain and others but you should concider the economically risk they take with that as well. They would be pretty much isolated and the loss of the import/export business with America would hurt them much more that it would hurt America. And there are plenty of other things that would come together there. Other countries are only on Bush�s side because they would just collapse economically if America would quit business and support with them. And that this is the plan Bush is not even ashamed of to announce openly.
Looking at the situation from that point of view turns the weasel thing 180 degree.
However, to a certain degree your point is true as well. |
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paws_of_gt
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 1:00 pm |
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Hmmmmm, lets see, Saddam has bio weapons & is prepared to use them is a good reason for getting rid of him, he has injured, tortured & mutilated many of his own people is another good reason, the fact he has strung the UN & world along for over 11 years is probably another good reason also.
Most of all though, the fact that thousands of weapons & masses of biological/nerve agents have all of a sudden gone walkies is probably the best reason for getting this sorted & as soon as.
Don't get me wrong, I think the way this has been handled by Bush & his new puppet Blair is so wrong it is almost as bad as Saddams regime, however, they have commited political suicide here, so soon as the "war" is over, you can say bye bye to their sorry arses, as I doubt either is going to get re elected after this whole fuck up.
Laying all this at the oil fields is just sheer ignorance, if/when the invasion does go in (Taking into account the British troops are now not allowed to make calls home or send E-Mails is a big indicator it is only a matter of time now, I bet they are all on 24 hours notice to move.) you think the world is gonna sit back & watch the US plunder Iraqs oil fields without saying anything? I think not baby puppy.
There is more money to be made by getting the idiot out of power & setting up a decent Govt so that the country can join the rest of us in the century of the Fruitbat. (Ooops, sorry went a bit Terry Pratchett then.)
As for these certain countries not wanting to get involved, well they have their reasons, but peace loving is far from the truth, its all financial. So much back scratching & palm greasing is going it, its beyond a joke, but I think the fact some Govts are threatening to take away funding etc to get people to back down is disgusting & not the way to go.
I do think that the UN really wants to get its fucking act together though, having worked with them & alongside them I am pissed that they are not taking this serously or chasing that mad fucker outa the country to be gassed in a chamber for war crimes against his own people.
I would be more than happy for this to go to war, not because I am some bloodthirsty moron that wants to watch civilians get wasted by stray American fire, but because I have been to Kuwait, & have sat 9ks off the border of Iraq on 24 hours notice to move once already in my life, I don't want this dragging on for another 11 years. Plus I have friends over there now who are prepared to do all that is neccessary to help the innocents & people that want this homicidal maniac outa the palaces. They don't want to kill women & children, they want to secure these people a safe & happy place to exist, away from tyranny & living in fear.
Sooner it is over, sooner we can get rid of Bush, Blair & Saddam really, so its all good. (Well mostly.)
As for this HUGE bodycount the press and peace lovers like to throw around, UTTER BOLLOCKS. Most of the troops are lining up against the Kuwait border already prepared to give up as soon as the flag gets dropped & the war is kicked off, the most casualties will come from Saddams imperial guard killing its own people & of course the usual American Blue on Blue kills.
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aColdOldKodiak
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 5:24 pm |
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| Sorry, but that is just blablabla... Humans in the 21st century can not compare such things on a 1:1 base. American government is just as bad or if not even worse, for the simple fact that they don�t seem to have learned a thing from the things you mentioned there. That one wouldn�t learn from that I consider as very unlikely. So what am I supposed to think now? |
You'd be generalize too much if that were true, as if America were the only country not learning from the past.
But anyways I'd say it's to the contrary, mainly because America is not like the Romans or the British or the French. If you think that 100 years after the Imperialization era that we'd change into a peace loving, pacifistic nation, you're wrong. Actually, at one point we tried to be pacifists... hell twice. But we all know why that ended. I don't want to put words into your mouth Antx but it sounds like you want the U.S. to draw back into the state of apathy, and play an insignificant role in the world stage.
But then when that happens a new super power arises, and everyone starts complaining about them, even though they probably won't be as bad as the super power before (though every once in awile one extremely evil power arises, but they fall quickly as well). And then the cycle continues. The level of what is considered bad for a super power to do, rises and rises throughout time.
The people take for granted what is now, rather than what was then. Surely it's not a bad thing, but to bag on the U.S. as being the worst and most evil yet is really rediculous. I'm not saying you don't have to aggree with this war, but you don't have to hate the U.S. The U.S. will change in time if enough people support that change... for better or for worse.
Anyways it's Bush and his fellow retards you should be mad at... they're giving us Americans a really bad name.
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[666]Flat
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2003 12:34 am |
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Hell, it wouldn't be exactly the worst thing that could happen to the Iraqi people to get rid of Saddam and his regime, not at all! But WTF? Bush's got no evidence for any connections between Saddam and Al Quaida (sp?), his "arguments" are frickin' ridiculous ( "They could build weapons rendering them capable of endangering us and our allies!" - yeah right that goes for 99% of the rest of the world, let's nuke the damn planet right ahead!) and it's absolutely obvious the hatred against the US will rise tremendously, backing up the international terror organisations (and not only the already "famous" ones). The guy who's endangering peace the most ain't Saddam, Mr. Bush, that's for granted. See ya later on da battle fields in Iran and North Korea.
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antx
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2003 9:43 am |
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>> Hmmmmm, lets see, Saddam has bio weapons & is prepared to use them is a good reason for getting rid of him, he has injured, tortured & mutilated many of his own people is another good reason, the fact he has strung the UN & world along for over 11 years is probably another good reason also. <<
I 100% agree that Saddam has to go and I think the whole world agrees on that, but the way the american government has choosen I can not agree with.
For the weapons there exists not the slightest prove even after looking for month intensively for them. All there is are fake proves. There is no 100% certainty that he really has none, but judging just because the possibility is wrong. I�m not saying that he has none cos I could thing of thousands of possibilities to hide them myself and it�s close to impossible to find them in such a big area. But without a prove you can�t do a thing.
>> so soon as the "war" is over, you can say bye bye to their sorry arses, as I doubt either is going to get re elected after this whole fuck up. <<
unfortunatlely it will be too late for a lot of people.
>> you think the world is gonna sit back & watch the US plunder Iraqs oil fields without saying anything? I think not baby puppy. <<
I don�t think so either cos it�s not America only but also their allies and they I bet have settled already where the oil is floating to. More than that: is not just like the war is over and the oil is distributed immediately and gone from Iraq. This is a much longer process with lots of details of it�s own.
>> As for these certain countries not wanting to get involved <<
It�s not like they don�t want to get involved, but rather they don�t want it to happen at all.
>> well they have their reasons, but peace loving is far from the truth, its all financial. <<
As I mentioned before, I�m pretty sure of that, but only what the governments concerns. The masses that join in in demonstrations do not do this just for money.
>> You'd be generalize too much if that were true, as if America were the only country not learning from the past. <<
You are absolutely right there. I focus this on America cos this is the subject here and no other country started such a threat at present.
>> I don't want to put words into your mouth Antx but it sounds like you want the U.S. to draw back into the state of apathy, and play an insignificant role in the world stage. <<
I would find it ideal if all nations would be on an equal level and also see them self that way. Even better: there was only one nation. Still, I wouldn�t mind a strong nation trying to better the world or even expanding up to the point where the world is just one nation. But that should be done in a way that is satisfing for everyone involved. Just because its difficult doesn�t mean that war is a better way because it�s simple. War is no way cos it creates lots new problems.
>> Anyways it's Bush and his fellow retards you should be mad at... they're giving us Americans a really bad name. <<
Oh well. I thought this was clear in my posts. I do not hate the US! Read my posts again and you should see that my complains where towards the american government only. I personally wouldn�t want either being made responsible for german government actions. I do seperate there and I look at people individually. Sorry for being so unclear in that matter. |
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Sgt. Squeaks
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2003 9:53 am |
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| antx wrote: |
For the weapons there exists not the slightest prove even after looking for month intensively for them. All there is are fake proves. There is no 100% certainty that he really has none, but judging just because the possibility is wrong. I�m not saying that he has none cos I could thing of thousands of possibilities to hide them myself and it�s close to impossible to find them in such a big area. But without a prove you can�t do a thing.
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The UN inspectors didn't go to iraq to find the weapons, they went over there to make sure that saddam was destroying the weapons discovered in 1991. Did you see any weapons being destroyed? I hate to tell you but all the weapons discovered in the gulf war didn't just disappear. |
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aColdOldKodiak
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2003 3:21 pm |
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>> you think the world is gonna sit back & watch the US plunder Iraqs oil fields without saying anything? I think not baby puppy. <<
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just want to clear this up. The U.S. can't just take Iraqi oil. The U.S. will have to set up a U.S. friendly government in IRAQ before they can leech their oil fields.
So those that say "no blood for oil" ok.. but Iraqi people will be better off in a government built off of that policy... the solution of course, is to devise new fuel sources other than oil. Removing power of oil in the middle east, removes most of it's money, thus also it's danger danger. I'm sure pacifists would like that... but that developes a new problem, driving the middle east even deeper into 3rd world economies.
Back to topic one of the reasons France and Germany don't like the idea of this war is the loss of contracts with IRAQ they were developing before this fiasco. Of course that's generalizing as well, there's all sorts of reasons, but you can't say that doesn't have it's part.
Also what type of effects this will have in the middle east is up to question... but I think this is a mess that's going to take years to clean up.
But even more concerning is how this is going to affect global relations.
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Pat
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2003 5:41 pm |
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| Pat: that you came up with that just because I�m german I take as just an emotional reaction... |
Yes yes, the silly American is just not thinking clearly --he's all emotional. Patronizing ass. Dismiss me like a bitch if you will, but recognize that the rest of the world judges your country by it's past --and that's inescapably ugly. Many Americans died because of German arrogance and it's disheartening to see how little you've taken the lessons of that war to heart --and so soon after the fact. Shame. But what you so conveniently put behind you is something many of us live with everyday in the absent faces of our fathers and grandfathers. You can act like an ignorant little shit online, I don't care. But don't you EVER presume to lecture us on the necessity of war.
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Gort
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2003 7:12 pm |
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| But what you so conveniently put behind you is something many of us live with everyday in the absent faces of our fathers and grandfathers...don't you EVER presume to lecture us on the necessity of war |
C U R R A H E E ! !
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Ragnarok
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2003 1:43 pm |
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I just wanted to say a couple of facts...
I live in Spain, a country where around 90% of the inhabitants claim "No war" each week. But I myself don't think that way, because there's not enough information to have a formed opinion, and I wonder if there will ever be.
Somethin very importatn that people seems to have forgotten: the Gulf Was isn't over. It didn't really finished. USA took their troops away with a condition. And that condition was to Saddam to disarm his army of some especifical weapons. The UN set up the ways he should do it, and all the conditions necessary. It hasn't happened yet. Technically, that war isn't over, so maybe they just want to finish it off? Don't know.
Also, I recommend all of you to read the full 1441 UN resolution. I did it recently and discovered several things that doesn't usually appear on the news. And the resolution is ambiguous enough to give the US the right to attack Iraq, as it says that it's the last resolution about Iraq and that all they decided must be made with all the means necessary.
However, being the resolution so ambiguous, they could be judged on the International Tribunal.
Nobody seems to remember the economic embargo. It's been there for over 12 years. People are suffering from this, but nobody talks about it. If France and Germany (and some parties in Spain) are so eager to peace for the iraqi people, why they don't talk about it?
Also, if they want to push Saddam to disarm, what else can they do apart from war? It's been 12 years, and we've only seen more proofs whenever Saddam was treathened by the use of the force.
Recently, they admited they have chemical weapons. Recently they let the inspectors have interrogations with scientific personal without members of the iraqi governement on the same room (something that was an obligation due to the former UN resolutions).
People complain about the US. They say they are the World Police... yet, who saved us twice in the past? If they only thought about their business, where would we be now? The same with Kosovo... and now Iraq. We are against the war, but only the US seem to be really wanting to do something about Saddam. (We should remember that France and Germany not so far ago didn't want to give more rights to the inspectors, yet now they want to give them all they want...)
paws_of_gt, I disagree about the reelection thing. If the war is a "success" (Saddam goes away, there are few deaths, it lasts about two weeks) then they will probably be reelected. The masses forget really fast.
Also, from all this, you may think I'm pro war, but I'm not. I don't really like the "preventive war", it sounds like an aberration to me. The US are sometimes on the top of the world and they judge the rest easily (I'm talking about governements) and they have values I don't agree with. But this time I think people aren't asking themselves questions and just shout No War because it's what's expected from them.
I myself don't know a damn thing, and as I said, we don't have enough information.
Well... let's see what happens next. War seems eminent anyway.
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haohmaru
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2003 2:20 pm |
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| Ragnarok wrote: |
| It's been 12 years, and we've only seen more proofs whenever Saddam was treathened by the use of the force. |
*imagines yoda threatening saddam* "no good dictator you are. bad weapons you hide" ...
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Giant Hamster
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2003 2:36 pm |
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Dr.bang wrote: "GUESS WHAT PEOPLE THERE WILL BE NO WAR! If there is a war, consider me a homo."
Well, war started - You're a homo! =) |
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Sgt. Squeaks
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Giant Hamster
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aColdOldKodiak
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2003 8:44 pm |
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heh... that link Hamster posted... talk about propaganda of the one sided view. Though I see some half truths, it is one of the most biased things I've seen in awile.
Sgt. Squeaks has a good link there, though the insult bashing wasn't necessary, I can understand why the Iraqi was pissed off at the girl. Who wants to be told by someone who doens't actually know the situation someone has lived through, how things "really are".
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Dr. Bang
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Svanur
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 4:19 am |
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I've personally never understood the desire to judge people by the sins of their fathers. Doing so states ignorance in many ways. It is also a behaviour that breeds hatred and distrust, something that the nations don't need at all. It might be nice to consider the foreigner next to you as cold-blooded enemy, it gives you coward-like courage to attack him and say that he is guilty for doing something he himself never did. He was just unlucky to be born there.
Another point that many Americans never fully realize is that the US is actually a boiling pot of all those nations they sometimes like to call idiots. When they throw insults at other European countries, Asia and son, they are throwing insults at their own legacy. The only person who can actually say "I am a 100% pure bred American" are the natives. everybody else has this "afflicted" blood of the rest of the world. America in itself has no cleaner slate than anyone else. Unless you get petty and try to justify deaths through numbers(I am not a number!; what show?).
And propaganda? Everybody uses it. No one side is free of propaganda. Humans are far from being the pure beings we imagine ourselves to be. We are spiteful, twisted and selfish. We may act as the good samaritan but the reasons may not be pure.
As soon as we say "fuck you" to nationalism and embrace globalism we will finally be heading in a brighter direction.
That video is just hilarious, well edited and all in all well done. The mp3 is even better. That hippy girl is a complete airhead. Look's like she is on something.
I want Bill Clinton back, he was a great guy. I really miss that guy.
For anybody taking my rant personal, take into considerations that this is my view and yours may differ.
and Dr.Bang, it's all right, we knew all the time  |
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ceenda
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 5:52 am |
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I want Bill Clinton back, he was a great guy. I really miss that guy.
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Hehe... and your speech was going so well, too.
But yeah, I agree with alot of what you say, though I recommend reading the book, "No One Left To Lie To: The Values of the Worst Family". |
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elam
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 10:21 am |
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| Another point that many Americans never fully realize is that the US is actually a boiling pot of all those nations they sometimes like to call idiots. |
How enlightening.. A non-American telling Americans what they don't realize(so you think).
Native Americans are from Asia. So technically, no one is 'native' in the western hemisphere.
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| I want Bill Clinton back, he was a great guy. |
Billy was a corrupt, weak, and hypocritcal leader. He was an excellent diplomat and ladies man, although Monica was a skank. |
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faustgfx
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 11:55 am |
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i thought you could only call anorexic looking people skanky..
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balistic
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 12:09 pm |
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| faustgfx wrote: |
| i thought you could only call anorexic looking people skanky.. |
Naw, there's fat skanks. Though Monica wasn't really fat*
*I'd hit it.
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aColdOldKodiak
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 1:31 pm |
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| Billy was a corrupt, weak, and hypocritcal leader. |
Same can be said for a lot of presidents though... not like George W. does not share some of those traits.. but in Bush's case, he is a poor diplomat.
On one hand I think it's a little too easy to point fingers at our presidents, and then leave all the blame on them for whatever reasons. On the other they do represent us... so blame em.
What am I talking about anyways?
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Ragnarok
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 1:45 pm |
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| elam wrote: |
| Native Americans are from Asia. So technically, no one is 'native' in the western hemisphere. |
Then the word native has no meaning, since we all come from a little place in Africa.
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Pat
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 2:37 pm |
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| I've personally never understood the desire to judge people by the sins of their fathers. Doing so states ignorance in many ways. It is also a behavior that breeds hatred and distrust, something that the nations don't need at all. It might be nice to consider the foreigner next to you as cold-blooded enemy, it gives you coward-like courage to attack him and say that he is guilty for doing something he himself never did. He was just unlucky to be born there. |
Svanur, the fallacy in your argument is the assumption that the "sins of the father" charges are leveled indiscriminately, blanketed over a group of people like a stereotype. Were that so, your point could be valid. But my pointed criticism of Antx is a direct result of his actions and words. He fans the flames of ignorance and hatred here. This is his topic, ill-argued and poorly informed. I despise his unreasonable premise and his two-faced backpeddling into a reasonable position. That he is German only underscores the sad irony of his actions. Antx isn't just "unlucky to be born there" as you put it, he's actively participating in a tradition of prejudice that caused the entire world such grief only 60 years ago. No reasonable person holds the current generation of Germans responsible for the actions of their forbears. On the other hand, with millions of dead as a direct result of German aggression, what reasonable person would not carefully weigh their war advice with this in mind? In this manner, the sins of the father do become the sins if the son. As the adage goes, "Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it." It's my opinion Antx could do with a little less yakking and a lot more remembering.
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| Another point that many Americans never fully realize is that the US is actually a boiling pot of all those nations they sometimes like to call idiots. |
What is this arrogance that assumes that all Americans are retards, yet you --who don't even live here-- understand us better than we understand ourselves? We live and breath the full extent of the filtered soundbites and second-hand reports that form your opinions of this country. I guarantee we have a better handle on it than you do.
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| We are spiteful, twisted and selfish... As soon as we say "fuck you" to nationalism and embrace globalism we will finally be heading in a brighter direction. |
So we can all be spiteful, twisted and selfish... together? We'd do better addressing the problem, not the symptom.
-Pat |
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Svanur
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 4:49 pm |
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| What is this arrogance that assumes that all Americans are retards, yet you |
Never said they were retards. Sure everybody has their share of retards and weak-minded people but no country is guilty of having more than the other. There is a saying we have here in my little country. "H�st bylur � t�mri tunnu" or in english it would sound as "The barrel which is emptiest makes the most noise". That is why some countries may look idiotic in the eyes and ears of others, mainly because the idiots actually make the most noise, not because they are more numerous but that they just got lucky. These loud-mouthed "idiots" are the people who create the stereotypic image of each and every country. Take my country for example: Lot of drunken pissants who beat themselves every weekend just because it's the only thing they have in life. I don't act that way but I can easily see if foreigners might think me like them, although I most often prove them wrong(thankfully  )
I also stated that the things I wrote above are my opinions. I am not saying I am 100% right. My views come from several Americans who I have had discussions with and like most views it is based upon my interaction with the world. I am also studying American Cultural History at the University here, where I am actually studying by American books so perhaps my views are tainted by them, I don't know.
If you took this so offensively I am sorry, I was just discussing my opinions and I tried to express them so they wouldn't hurt anyone in any way possible, although I know it's somewhat impossible.
And if I come off as "American-hating" jerk then I am truly sorry. I've had many american friends who I've had some of the best discussions in my life with. I've been to your country and I had an enjoyable time there and there have been many things I have enjoyed from your country. If anything, I am voicing my concerns about America(again from my perspective), not wishing it's demise(like I might have sounded, I ain't sure).
Prejudice is something we can't absolve ourselves from. It's a part of the human nature. Some are worse than the others and others are so innocent that they never come to our mind.
There will always be problems, to me it makes life what it is. It can be painful and sometimes even to hard to bear but when you sit down at the end of the day and look to the sky, the world will still stay beautiful. We might be conniving bastards as a race, but some of us manage to see the beauty of it, although shrouded in bloody history and, too often, governed by idiots.
I can see the validity in your argument and I respect your opinions. Perhaps I am asking too much for the same but one of the biggest help each and everyone can get is from the outside. An individual/family/state/country may have their problems and sometimes they can't see it for what it is. It's like painting, you stare at your painting for hours and the errors of it are lost upon you. Then another artist, or even a non-artist, comes over and says "That arm is kinda funky looking" and then you get an epiphany/revelation or whatever. You see the problem and accept it. Perhaps you try to fix it and perhaps you scrap the project altogether.
You're welcome to tear this down as you wish, like I said before, this is my opinion and I am sorry if it scars anyone |
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Dr. Bang
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aColdOldKodiak
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Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 8:33 pm |
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HOLY CRAP! Dr. Bang is a HOMO
it's a revelation...
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Steven Stahlberg
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Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 3:46 am |
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It's ironic when Swedes protest the war (which they're doing now, perhaps more forcefully than any other country, 5 out of 4 swedes are against the war)... edit: oops I meant the opposite
they have a long tradition of protesting anything American, since the Vietnam war.
But Sweden is the most Americanized of all countries - AND they're one of the biggest makers and sellers of military hardware. The high living standard would sure take a beating if that stopped.
And comparing this conflict to the Vietnam war is just silly. It's the complete opposite in so many ways it's almost funny.
I had swedish friends who were talking about hundreds of thousands of poor little children being killed by American bombs in Afghanistan, but of course now we know more of what actually happened there. And this present war will most likely be even shorter and have even less casualties.
Last edited by Steven Stahlberg on Fri Mar 21, 2003 11:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gort
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 4:32 am |
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Steven - I hope that you're right. I really hope that this whole thing is going to be done with quickly.
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faustgfx
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Location: unfortunately, very near you.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2003 4:57 am |
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| balistic wrote: |
| faustgfx wrote: |
| i thought you could only call anorexic looking people skanky.. |
Naw, there's fat skanks. Though Monica wasn't really fat*
*I'd hit it. |
never said that. just sorta hinted that she wasn't just skin and bones either. which made me wonder because every (meaning 100%) time i've seen someone being called skank(y), it's been someone who looks very exaggeratedly slutty, thin as fuck, cheap, etc. to my knowledge, lewinsky wasn't these (to my knowledge = haven't made my own opinion since i've seen her maybe once or twice on some webpage or something) by any definition, except maybe slutty (e.g. INNER SLUTTINESS, instead of dressing up like a bralizian or a russian hooker).
dfjdsjhskf��fdlfsdksdfsdj. explain. when do you call someone skanky or a skank. what requirements does one need to fullfill to be considered a skank. how does it work!
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