[antx]

I�m surprised that there is no discussion here yet about this matter.
I really would like to know how people and especially american people think aout the whole subject "war against Irak" because I just don�t understand that only a very few countries disagree with the US government.

First of all I would like to know if this is the kind of "News" that you read and believe in or if that appears just as stuppid and crazy to you as it appears to me:



They seriously write there "Hitler's children: Thousands of pro-Saddam Germans stage anti-U.S. rally in Munich." I just can not believe this. Those people are "AGAINST WAR" and NOT "pro-Saddam". This is twisting facts in the most ignorant, insulting and arrogant way. Writing under it "Hitler's children" is not only stuppid and extremly insulting, it is also obvious that this can�t be right. Look at the sign in this picture. That is exactly the opposite.
"France, Germany: Let Iraq Attack Turkey". Again just ignoring the facts and twisting them to their own needs. First of all: Turkey is not under attack. Secondly the whole discusion is just made up to put pressure on France and Germany. If they would agree there then this would be already half agreeing to war. Why should they agree on something that would only be a subject if that happens what they actually try to prevent?

Secondly I would like to know why the Bush administration is so eager to attack a country and kill hundreds of thousands of people. Why?
Why do they insult and blackmail other countries?
Why do they try and push other countries to make the UNO break their rules?
Why do they never ever work along the rules they agreed on rather just ignore them?
Why do they fake "proves" that the Irak is a serious threat at this moment? And even if it was like this. Is this a reason for a war?

I just can�t see anything "good" behind all this. I simply see Bush and Co. as a band of raging, fanatic warlords who bring the "american arrogance" to a new high.

Perhaps I�m ignorant but perhaps someone can make me see...

[Gort]

You and me (as I am an American) will never get the true story; we will never know the real reason why all of this is happening.

Keep in mind that this publication that you've brought to light is one of thousands that you will find in America. Almost every publication, be in print or on the web, will have some sort of agenda they want to present - anti-war, pro-war, Democratic, Republican, Republicrat, etc.

Just try to keep an open mind and take some comfort in knowing that not everyone in America sees the German people as "Hitler's children". I sure don't; I have more sense that that.

I heard on NPR (National Public Radio) that both Germany and France have underlying business relationships with Iraq, and a war would mean that both countries would lose billions of dollars. Now that was the story presented, and those that stated it claimed it truthfully. Who knows - another agenda?

Personally I would like to see Iraq comply with the UN by fully disarming and effectively cataloging their efforts. I do not think that going to war is the answer, but you also have to understand that Hussein has shown in the past that he will butcher his own kind. The man is very oppressive, and he is a threat even to his own Arab neighbors. If he would just comply and step down, then all of this would possibly go away. Ideally speaking. Whatever.

This banter has gone on before here in the Musings, so I won't argue any longer, but I am sure there are many that will; however, just keep in mind that not everyone here thinks so subjectively of France and Germany, as I believe not everyone there thinks so subjectively of the US.
_________________
- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[Citizen Cow]

Its spelled IRAQ.
Someone please move this thread to the toilet....
..oh wait... Im thinking of Eatpoo.....

[Ian Jones]

BLEH, I removed my comment. Lets just get back to art.

[Gort]

I agree...save this stuff for someplace else.
_________________
- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[brainwash]

If it was mass destruction weapons which Bush wanted to eliminate, he first had to worry about China, who treated with military operations, to act logically... I also don't believe that he wants to help any suppressed people as he talks about the "axis of evil". What a bad and retarded diplomacy. The Clinton regime had the chance to eliminate Saddam eleven years ago by CIA spions, but the operation was cancelled. There haden't no economically advantages being raised from. I also believe Bush had no friends when he was a child. This could be the only logically reason. Almost as ignorant as me, but I don't kill any people.

I also wanted to say that I don't sympathize with Saddam Hussein in any kind. But I would find it stupid from him, if he would show what, where and how much weopons of which kind he has, making it for intruders a children game to take over his country. "Show me your weapons, I want to know it for easier killing you!" Heh?

/edit
"Hitler's children"? How pervert.

[eyewoo]

Pray for peace... Pray that the huge "chess game" that is currently underway is won decisively and not brought to a draw, which would mean war - no question about it. Pray for peace. Pray that Saddam and his inner circle take the checkmate gracefully. Pray for peace...

[Jabberwocky]

War is what the US does whenever we get one of those trigger happy cowboy republicans in office... Yeah for once why don't we just worry about what's going on a home.

On the radio the other day a poll was taken by many of the countries. the poll was who was most likely to destroy world peace... Iraq was #2, don't remember who #3 was and you guessed it USA had to be #1 on that list too.
_________________
Im not saying that there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but warning labels should be remove and let the problem take
care of itself.

[[Shizo]]

Jabberwocky: i would say that only GENERALLY the republicans are trigger happy and have crappy ideas about things, but democrats are just the same crap-people heheh. Maybe government isn't as corrupted as in other countries, but here it's corrupted enough to make enough damage because they're in charge of much higher power than they would be in other countries.
I think at least..

And that website is funny I bet some KKK-member republican made it. LOL

[Sukhoi]

Hehe, generalisation (spelling?) is hella funny.

Although the present situation is somewhat worrying on several levels.

Sukhoi

[Periadam]

Bush wants to attack random countries for one reason, and it sure as hell has nothing to do with "evil" (which, if you think about it, is nothing but an abstract concept that can't be substantiated by any means possible). It's a little black liquid called OIL. Who has oil? Iraq! Who wants oil? Bush!
Woo! So let's go bomb Baghdad with 800 cruise missles in 48 hours and "shock and awe" them into giving up the only thing that makes them economically viable! Not to mention killing thousands of innocent civilians in the process (remind anybody of anything? ehem*9-11*).

This is a funny little thing too.
http://www.observer.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,882459,00.html

From everything I've heard, this is my opinion.

In response to the "Hitler's Children" comment... I was extremely offended, and I'm not even German! If they'd make such an ignorant slur against Germany (which, we all know is a wonderful country full of many wonderful people... including those in the photograph!) they'd make something similar against Canada (if we protest) or anybody else who does. I don't know if it's so much a shot at Germany as it is against "the opposition" in an if-you're-not-with-us-you're-against-us mentality. It's thoroughly disgusting.
_________________
Under communism, man exploits man. Under capitalism, it's just the opposite.

Peri.

[atomicmonkey]

Wow, I thought I've seen the media do some stupid (and shitty) things before, but that article is sick. I mean, it's so wrong it's obvious. "Hitler"? Grow up. "Pro-Saddam"? There's a goddamn NO WAR flag in the background!!

*shakes head*

[ceenda]

As the author Salman Rushdie said recently, it's a tragedy when people have no choice but to feel a sad sense of nostalgia for days of the cold war and the Soviet Union.

There definately needs to be another major superpower if the UN is going to be an effective mediator. I don't think China can fit the gap somehow. Perhaps when Russia exploits it's oil reserves a little it can get back up. But right now nothing will stop the US going to war without a UN resolution. Quite frankly, they don't need it.

As someone said, the truth is tainted in whatever medium you choose to read about it. Pick up a copy of "The Times" in the UK and you'll get editorials about how evil Saddam is and how a war is a just one. Pick up a copy of "The Guardian" and you'll read about bleeding-heart-liberals trying to stop a war with glow-sticks and placards.

I'd just rather we stuck our noses out of other people's businness and solved problems like unemployment and crime at home before spending billions in toppling regimes abroad.

[requiem-on-acid]

1 word: Economy
_________________
"try trippin' on acid for 96 days, maybe it will cure our addictions to illusions"

[requiem-on-acid]

1 word: Economy
_________________
"try trippin' on acid for 96 days, maybe it will cure our addictions to illusions"

[requiem-on-acid]

Im sorry for posting that two times

Well, I've walked along with a demonstration against the war.... And There were so many people who don't want a war.......
I live in the Netherlands and the last time a demonstration was this huge, it was when there was a war against Vietnam.......

I've got some pictures......







Im against the war , but There sure will be a war, the USA is just the most powerfull country of the world.........
_________________
"try trippin' on acid for 96 days, maybe it will cure our addictions to illusions"

[Mr.Manga]

i think the U.S. is much like the Romans, they got too power hungry and they were overthrown.


Maybe it wont happen to us because we are a very powerful country but come on, we are like the world police all of a sudden.
_________________
Insanity does not run in my family, it gallops

[Drunken Monkey]

What americans should really be scared of is Patriot Act and Patriot Act 2. I suggest your read about them (second one especially).
_________________
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity" - Sigmund Freud

[elam]

Who cares about Iraq? War or not, North Korea is *way* more troubling. Everything that George Bush claims about Saddam Hussein and Iraq, the dire consequences of obtaining WMD, is happening with North Korea right now. But he's dug himself a hole with Iraq, and can't really do much about it.

Fear the Great Leader:

[merlyns]

this is like so funny..

http://www.theonion.com/onion3908/bush_offers_taxpayers.html



-david
_________________

[starfish]

Yo antx!

Here comes some info that will help you understand
- and also foresee - daddy Bush and Cheney's next moves.


* PNAC (Project for a New American Century) *
don't worry if you've never heard of it before, not many have.

PNAC completed the blueprint "Rebuilding America's Defenses"
in 2000. It explains what they want the USA to do in order
to ensure "U.S. global domination".

The report urges development of "advanced forms
of biological warfare that can 'target' specific genotypes"
and which "may transform biological warfare from the
realm of terror to a politically useful tool."

So far Bush's "big bully" policies are based almost verbatim
on the policies drawn up by PNAC.

In the "Rebuilding America's Defenses" blueprint you will
find "pre-emptive strikes", military presence in Gulf,
"anti-terrorist" plans, making up new useful enemies
like North Korea, Iran, Sudan etc. etc.

Regarding Iraq the following quote is pretty telling of what
it's all about;
"The United States has for decades sought to play a more
permanent role in Gulf regional security. While the unresolved
conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need
for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends
the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein."

Check out the plan in all it's horrid glory:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

Who are the main people behind it?
http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

This group was formed back in 1997 and includes "security
advisors" going back to Nixon, characters from Iran-Contra,
the so called "Drug Wars", Christian Values groups, Jewish
and Israeli lobbyists. It features heads of Lockheed, Boeing,
and other military suppliers and contractors.
Included are senior editors of the major"right-leaning"
publications, as well as current staffers of the Bush administration
(including Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz)."

Also included is Jeb Bush!(might explain the oddities in fl back
in 2000).

One name that might ring a bell - if you've payed attention
to the happenings in Afghanistan - is Zalmay Khalilzad
who was paid spokesman for Unocal and the one who invited
the Talibans to Texas for "negotiations" regarding
the pipeline UNOCAL proposed through Afghanistan.

More links to info about PNAC and "Rebuilding America's Defenses":

*Bush planned Iraq 'regime change' before becoming President*
http://www.sundayherald.com/27735
(this is the article that put the spotlight in PNAC)

*The Project for the New American Century*
http://portland.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=46145&group=webcast

*The "New Pearl Harbor" and The Project for the New American Century*
"What was needed for America to dominate much of humanity and the world's resources, it said, was "some catastrophic and catalysing event - like a new Pearl Harbor". The attacks of 11 September 2001 provided the "new Pearl Harbor", described as "the opportunity of ages"."
http://pilger.carlton.com/print/124759


If you want more info about the Oil/Power hungry people behind
the current war drive be sure to check out another "think-tank",
the "Baker Institute" at Rice University, Houston, Texas.

"Five months before September 11, the US advocated using force against Iraq ... to secure control of its oil. Neil Mackay on the document which casts doubt on the hawks"
http://www.sundayherald.com/28224

the document is a publication of the Baker Institute
and the Council on Foreign Relations of New York City.
The entire document may be found at the Baker Institute's web site at:
http://bakerinstitute.org/Pubs/workingpapers/cfrbipp_energy/energytf.htm
A September 2001 update may be found at:
http://bakerinstitute.org/Pubs/workingpapers/cfrbipp_energy/cfrupdate.pdf

Another Baker Institute publication of interest is its November 2000 report entitled 'Running on Empty? Prospects for Future World Oil Supplies' at:
http://bakerinstitute.org/Pubs/studies/bipp_study_14/index.html


The control of Oil and Gas is the big motivation.

Oh, and that daddy Bush earns millions from his advising at
the Carlyle Group(the worlds biggest investor in weapons and oil)
is just a coincidence ;)

Let me know if you want more details =)

[antx]

So it�s world domination after all. Not making one world = one country, but rather Amierica and the rest of the world as their slave. What an honorable goal... And many people in America don�t even realize that they are not on that side of America that is supposed to shine then. They get brainwashed and feed with censored media and give then up all their freedom willingly.

And French Fries are now called Freedom Fries over there!!! Wouldn�t it be consequent to quit eating and selling those things? But no, they would never give them up. That far the patriotism will not go. That�s just so silly.
Why actually not sending back the statue of liberty? Must be so disgusting to look at it these days.

The american government is really making me sick. Get rid of them americans! They cast bad light upon you.

[Pat]

Yeah, sure thing there Mr. Master Race.

I always trust the Germans when it comes to matters of world domination --they've got such a clean record there. They can spot a bad leader in heartbeat! And it's not like they've ever had a censored media misleading the public, brainwashing propaganda that mobilized the country to war or even invaded other countires for profit.

You know, no matter what happens over there, I'll bet we don't shove a single Iraqi into an oven.

Keep casting stones, I hear it's great exercise.

-Pat

[Gort]

Pat - thank you!! Really - thanks! I mean that!


Let's not forget the Secret Society of Elitist Scientists and their underground facilty that is at this very moment building a spaceship that will carry them and their Elitist Members to the already discovered and secret M class planet Zamzellum Prime.
_________________
- Tom Carter

"You can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf" - Jack Kornfield

[balistic]

I'm pro-war if only for the resultant gun camera footage.
_________________
brian.prince|light.comp.paint

[aColdOldKodiak]

Jee.. all the stereotypes about people have really played off in here...

guys get over yourselves... every other country is just as balck and white as America...
If you think Europe has puratanical motivations about IRAQ and keeping peace, you should reevaluate what you know about Europe.
AS for the rest of the world, it's expected for them to secretly hate their leaders of order... it's like the Romans, everyone secretly hated them, and when Rome fell, that whole Area went int othe Dark ages for some 400 years. Point is America supports the world in it's own way, and as bad as we are we arn't nearly as bad as the Romans. Hell we arn't nearly as bad as the French or British during their Imperialistic phase.

Btw Freedom Fries... sure one place in the south calls French Fries freedom fries... but the majority of Americans call French Fries.. French Fries.
Antx... I'd think about that 80% of America is not like Bush nor his cronies, and that when he got elected he won because of some 1,000 votes out of 100,000,000 votes. This country is pretty much split in political opinion, we don't all believe in world domination.
_________________
http://jcaart.cjb.net

[Dr. Bang]

GUESS WHAT PEOPLE THERE WILL BE NO WAR! If there is a war, consider me a homo.
_________________
Join Roundeye's secret art forum. SHHHHHHHHHHH!

[gezstar]

[aColdOldKodiak]

You know what's really sad.. is that I just can't believe either side (anti-war and pro-war) really care anything about the Iraqi people...

The people for peace have the idea that if their country isnt at war, then the world is good and fine.

sure

and the pro-war people talk about protecting the world and helping the Iraqi people... it's just hard to buy that.

Just goes to show we havn't really changed much even after world war 2... we're still indecisive.
_________________
http://jcaart.cjb.net

[antx]

>> If you think Europe has puratanical motivations about IRAQ and keeping peace, you should reevaluate what you know about Europe. <<

I�m even pretty sure of that or at least I�m sure that "peace" is not the only motivation for those governments to have their own position in that matter.
But I know definitely why I don�t support Bush in there and that is because I can not see anything good in what he�s doing. And he keeps on makeing it worse.

>> Point is America supports the world in it's own way, and as bad as we are we arn't nearly as bad as the Romans. Hell we arn't nearly as bad as the French or British during their Imperialistic phase. <<

Sorry, but that is just blablabla... Humans in the 21st century can not compare such things on a 1:1 base. American government is just as bad or if not even worse, for the simple fact that they don�t seem to have learned a thing from the things you mentioned there. That one wouldn�t learn from that I consider as very unlikely. So what am I supposed to think now?

On the Freedom Fries: I commented on that because it was a decision from an official place. If some people call them now Freedom Fries I really don�t care but that some politicians sit together and debate about that and get paid for this "work" is just so absurd (but I don�t care either). That most americans find this as silly as I do I�m fully aware of. I would not write this here now if that land was full of fools.

>> I'd think about that 80% of America is not like Bush nor his cronies, <<

I don�t know about 80%. According to the numbers I got so far is more like 50% if even that.

>> I always trust the Germans when it comes to matters of world domination --they've got such a clean record there. They can spot a bad leader in heartbeat! And it's not like they've ever had a censored media misleading the public, brainwashing propaganda that mobilized the country to war or even invaded other countires for profit. <<

And the American government has to make this mistake for them self to learn that this is a damn thing?

>> You know, no matter what happens over there, I'll bet we don't shove a single Iraqi into an oven. <<

It�s no excuse for me to note that someone else killed 11 people when I have killed "only" 10.
(And, where a nuke drops there is no work left for an oven. (may sound a little like a try to justify the oven thing or maybe like sarcasm, but that�s not the intention!!!))

Pat: that you came up with that just because I�m german I take as just an emotional reaction...