[Dhabih]

I typed this up as a reply to the otehr thread but my reply got real long so im starting a new one...sorry

It's been interesting reading the thread about religion, and to see the various ideas you all have. Some might have noticed on my links page a couple links to information about the Baha'i Faith....the faith to which i guide my life by. The Bahai faith is a system of global beliefs, the purpose of which is to improve the lives of individuals and to better society.

As a Baha'i, i think when one speaks of "religion", it's important to differentiate between those spiritual teachings that come from a divine source (God, Allah,.... whatever name someone chooses to call this entity, the creator of the universe and everything within), and those dogmas and doctrines that were made up by various clergy down through the ages.

We can see in all the major faiths that there are certain spiritual concepts which are constant among them -- the golden rule, various versions of the ten commandments, teachings which call out to the better side of humans, which seeks to help us rise beyond our physical, "animal" side, to something within that is known as our spiritual aspect. These spiritual teachings of religion, whether given by Christ, Buddha, Muhammad, Moses, or any of the other great teachers, are basically one and the same, and i believe their initial source is the same.

The things that people fight over, which have been the cause of so much conflict, hatred, and oppression "in the name of God", these have ALWAYS been those things created by so-called "followers" many years after the death of their Teacher. It has been these doctrines, often purposefully devised to control people and expand the power and influence of the clergy, that has been so destructive, and what has made many people, especially thinking young people today, to despise "religion". Who can blame em, afterall, religion should be like a medicine which helps to heal human illnesses, not something which makes people more sick!

One post in the other thread made a good point, that we cannot blame God for all that's done in the name of religion. Once we differentiate, once we separate the man-made from the divine, then I think we can look at the concept of spiritual teachings in a more appreciative and positive light.

One big problem with doctrines pushed by some religous leaders is they always have some aspect of the idea of exclusive salvation in them....... that their particular belief is "THE ONLY WAY", and if you don't believe in the way they tell you to, then you're going to hell! This in itself is so contrary to the idea of a loving Creator, you wonder how anyone could believe in such a concept. If there is a God (which is a whole other subject, but there are logical arguments for it), He would definately love and care for all His creation, just as a loving parent does, so it's impossible to think that He would only guide and bless certain ones of us on earth.

I like to think of religion as grades in a school, there are many teachers and their lessons may be a bit different depending on our capacity and stage of development, but the overall goal of the system is one.....to progressivly educate and develop us. For example a 6th grade teacher would not teach complex multiplication and division to a first grader because a first grader would not be able to understand such a concept at such a young age. However you cant say that because of this a 6th grade teacher is better than a 1st grade teacher. In the same way each of the Messengers from God come to us at different periods in human civilization and bring a message that the people of that time need and can comprehend. Yet each messenger is just as important and all are sent from the same Creator. One problem that has risen in the past is that people get attached to their religion's prophet and refuse to move on to the next, much like some kids who like their teacher so much they dont want to leave the 2nd grade!


People sometimes mention about the sad and cruel things in life, and question why a kind God would allow such extreme difficulties in life, if He is really "kind" and "all-loving". I think the answer has to do with what one conceives the purpose of life itself to be.

From the childs point of view in the womb of its mother, the effort of growing arms and legs, eyes and ears, is pointless suffering. If you could talk with it and ask the fetus if it wants its arms and legs, it'd probably say "No! What for? It's crowded in here!".....because it has no understanding of their use, since our limbs are not for use in the womb, but for out here. If you asked if it wants to develop eyes or ears, having no grasp of their usefulness in this world, it would say "No, why waste the energy?!" Yet, if the fetus were allowed to have its way, then when it's born, what a tragedy it would be, as it struggled to function in this world under extreme handicaps!
I believe that the test and difficulties of this life are to help us grow, to acquire spiritual virtues and qualities as the results of the struggles we go through in life. All of us have struggles and tests, they take a million different forms, but we all have them......I believe they're what life is all about, because they help us to become stronger and to develop various qualities (if we approach our tests with the attitude that we can grow from them) ......qualities like patience, love, generosity, kindness, forgiveness, and such. Like the child in the womb, we may not be able now to fully understand why developing such spiritual qualities are important to us, but I believe that as we move onto other planes of existence, we will realize why they are needed.

Dang this got long i'll leave it at this for now. I'd like to thank people for keeping this discussion mostly civil and not turning it into a flame war. I realize this is a touchy subject, but am glad we are talking about it in a nice way. BTW, if anyone wnats to know more about the teachings of Baha'u'llah (the Baha'i Faith), check out http://www.bahai.org/ & http://bahai.com/thebahais/ -- both sites have info about the Baha'i faith in several languages.


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http://www.sijun.com/

[jasonN]

Your baby in womb anecdote was very good. I always asked myself that question about why God has such cruel things in the world but never knew the answer:

"People sometimes mention about the sad and cruel things in life, and question why a kind God would allow such extreme difficulties in life, if He is really 'kind' and 'all-loving'."

The theory you presented to me has now become a part of my beliefs. Sure you may not be right (no one can be sure if they're right when it comes to beliefs, religion and life), but to me it sounds pretty dead on and that's good enough for me. Thanks for the enlightening and interesting theory.

-Jason

[This message has been edited by jasonN (edited March 16, 2000).]

[Jess]

thank you, I needed to hear that today...


--

[This message has been edited by Jess (edited March 30, 2000).]

[Cypher]

I've been raised as a penticostal christian, but only now I'm starting to realize what life is all about, and where I'm supposed to go from here. My family was very "stubborn" when it came to religion, and they'd read the Bible and have long debates about what every little word really means, giving what should be a straightforward message hidden meanings that make life so much more complicated...

They went so far that they reached the decision that wearing a watch or a tie, men wearing hear beyond their collar, or women not covering their heads all the time are sins.

They started paying a lot of attention to little things like that, and lost track of the whole picture. They don't really know where they're headed anymore, but they do know that if they see someone wear a watch, he's a sinner. Also, they take the time to sit down and talk about how all the other religions are wrong, and all the catholics are going to hell, and they laugh at them.

I was caught in this whole web of ignorance, until I broke away from the family, living on my own. Then, looking from the outside I realized what was happening and what SHOULD be happening...

I believe that people spend too much time debating the religious differences, or trying to "pick" a religion that "fits them." God (or Allah or whatever) is everywhere (for He created the universe) and you can create your own personal religion, your own relationship with Him, and as long as it's turning you into a better person and gives you a better understanding of live and what steps you have to go through next, then that's your religion. Even if you choose not to give your God a name, He's still the creator of the Universe, and there is only One.

The best of someone lies within themselves, and it's up the THEM to unlock it, not the cult, or the church, or in my case, a wrongly interpreted religion.

I usually attend the church that's the closest to my house, whatever they teach... I takes what helps me, I discard the rest...

[PaK-RaT]

i dont believe in religion in the traditional sense. i am Zoroastrian. My faith is old, it has been subject to verbal interpuratation and translation. The language the religion was written in is dead, and no one can understand it anymore. The main message stays strong though, here it is:

"good thoughts will lead to good words, which in turn will lead to good deeds"

all the angels and propheits and nonesense that has been tagged on over the centuries means nothing to me...the important lessons from zoroastar i have absorbed.

i think Kevin Smith said it best "people will wage a war and die over a belief, but not for ideas" That's how i would like to go about religion. It's not a hard-fast set of rules in stone, maybe just a 'way of life' or a few 'good ideas' to keep in mind as life goes on

------------------
2D Artist/Founder
www.3dpalette.com

[Mindstorm]

IN REPLY TO YOUR QUESTION ABOUT THE KIND OF GOD WE HAVE, AND WHY HE HAS ALLOWED MANKIND TO SUFFER ALL THIS TIME, THERE IS A REASON FOR THAT.....

YES, YOU ARE CORRECT WE DO HAVE A LOVING GOD.
NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT !!!

( BEFORE I GO ON I RESPECT YOUR BELIEFS ! )

I MY SELF AM IN NO POSITION OT MAKE FUN OF YOUR RELIGION OR BELIEFS, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO SAHRE MY THOUGHT ON WHY GOD HAS ALLOWED WHAT THE WORLD IS TODAY ***

IF WE REMEMBER AT THE BEGINING OF ALL THIS, WHEN ADAM AND EVE WERE ALIVE, SATAN WHO USED THE BODY OF A SNAKE TO TEMPT EVE IN EATING THE FRUIT, WICH LATER ON BROUGHT THE IMPERFECTION TO MANKIND, ACHIEVED HIS GOAL.

HIS GOAL WAS TO RUIN GODS PURPOSE OF MANKIND HERE ON EARTH, WICH WAS TO LIVE FOR EVER, PERFECT !!

AT THAT TIME GOD COULD OF EASLY DESTROYED SATAN, BUT DID NOT FOR A REASON...

WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT GOD HAD MILLIONS OF ANGELS THAT ALWAYS WERE AROUND HIM AND SAW THE SAME THINGS HE DID......

NOW AFTER ADAM AND EVE FAILED TO OBEY GODS LAWS, DONT YOU THINK GOD BEING THE CREATER OF ALL THINGS COULD OF EASLY STARTED OVER AGIAN WITH MANKIND AND DESTROYED SATAN????

YEAS HE COULD HAVE !!!!!

NOW AFTER ALL THIS HAD HAPPENED SATAN QUESTIONED GOD THAT MAN COULD LIVE THERE OWN LIFES WITHOUT ANY DIRECION OF GOD.....

AGAIN, GOD DID NOT HAVE TO PROVE ANYTHING TO SATAN AND COULD OF EASLY DESTOYED THEM, BUT REMEMBER WHAT I SAID ALREADY ABOUT GODS ANGELS???

THAY WERE WATCHING ALL THIS.......

SO IN ORDER FOR ANY ANGELS NOT TO DOUBT THAT QUESTION SATAN HAD MADE TO GOD, HE ALLOWED MAN TO LIVE FROM THAT POINT ON.... AND I THINK THE ANSWER TO SATAN QUESTION, WE CAN SEE NOW..

FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO DO NOT, LOOK AT THE WORLD!! LOOK AT MANKIND !!! HAVE WE PROVED TO OURSELFS AND TO GOD THAT WE DO NOT NEED HIS DIRECION, NOR HIS LAWS TO LIVE A HAPPY PERFECT LIFE??????

I DONT THINKS SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WE JUST SCREWED UP THINGS 100% MORE..........

SO THAT IS WHY THE WORLD IS THE WAY IT IS....
FULL OF SUFFERING, DEATHS, SICKNESS, WAR....
AND THE LIST JUST GOES ON !!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOW WHAT DO YOU THINK??? HAS MAN BEEN ABLE TO LIVE A GOOD LIFE THESE DAYS WITH OUT THE DIRECION OF GOD, LIKE IT WAS BEFORE ?????

BEFORE YOU ANSWER THAT QUESTION THINK ABOUT IT?????


THERE IS SO MUCH MORE TO ADD TO THIS BUT I WOULD BE GOING INTO ANOTHER TOPIC, WICH WOULD BE WHAT WE KNOW NOW AS "THE END OF THE WORLD".

THE END OF SATAN AND HIS DEMONS, AND HIS FOLLOWERS... WICH GOD WILL DO VERY SOON...

NOW IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO HEAR ABOUT THAT I WOULD NOT MIND SHARING THAT WITH YOU..

MINDSTORM..........

[Mindstorm]

IN REPLY TO YOUR QUESTION ABOUT THE KIND OF GOD WE HAVE, AND WHY HE HAS ALLOWED MANKIND TO SUFFER ALL THIS TIME, THERE IS A REASON FOR THAT.....

YES, YOU ARE CORRECT WE DO HAVE A LOVING GOD.
NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT !!!

( BEFORE I GO ON I RESPECT YOUR BELIEFS ! )

I MY SELF AM IN NO POSITION OT MAKE FUN OF YOUR RELIGION OR BELIEFS, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO SAHRE MY THOUGHT ON WHY GOD HAS ALLOWED WHAT THE WORLD IS TODAY ***

IF WE REMEMBER AT THE BEGINING OF ALL THIS, WHEN ADAM AND EVE WERE ALIVE, SATAN WHO USED THE BODY OF A SNAKE TO TEMPT EVE IN EATING THE FRUIT, WICH LATER ON BROUGHT THE IMPERFECTION TO MANKIND, ACHIEVED HIS GOAL.

HIS GOAL WAS TO RUIN GODS PURPOSE OF MANKIND HERE ON EARTH, WICH WAS TO LIVE FOR EVER, PERFECT !!

AT THAT TIME GOD COULD OF EASLY DESTROYED SATAN, BUT DID NOT FOR A REASON...

WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT GOD HAD MILLIONS OF ANGELS THAT ALWAYS WERE AROUND HIM AND SAW THE SAME THINGS HE DID......

NOW AFTER ADAM AND EVE FAILED TO OBEY GODS LAWS, DONT YOU THINK GOD BEING THE CREATER OF ALL THINGS COULD OF EASLY STARTED OVER AGIAN WITH MANKIND AND DESTROYED SATAN????

YEAS HE COULD HAVE !!!!!

NOW AFTER ALL THIS HAD HAPPENED SATAN QUESTIONED GOD THAT MAN COULD LIVE THERE OWN LIFES WITHOUT ANY DIRECION OF GOD.....

AGAIN, GOD DID NOT HAVE TO PROVE ANYTHING TO SATAN AND COULD OF EASLY DESTOYED THEM, BUT REMEMBER WHAT I SAID ALREADY ABOUT GODS ANGELS???

THAY WERE WATCHING ALL THIS.......

SO IN ORDER FOR ANY ANGELS NOT TO DOUBT THAT QUESTION SATAN HAD MADE TO GOD, HE ALLOWED MAN TO LIVE FROM THAT POINT ON.... AND I THINK THE ANSWER TO SATAN QUESTION, WE CAN SEE NOW..

FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO DO NOT, LOOK AT THE WORLD!! LOOK AT MANKIND !!! HAVE WE PROVED TO OURSELFS AND TO GOD THAT WE DO NOT NEED HIS DIRECION, NOR HIS LAWS TO LIVE A HAPPY PERFECT LIFE??????

I DONT THINKS SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WE JUST SCREWED UP THINGS 100% MORE..........

SO THAT IS WHY THE WORLD IS THE WAY IT IS....
FULL OF SUFFERING, DEATHS, SICKNESS, WAR....
AND THE LIST JUST GOES ON !!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOW WHAT DO YOU THINK??? HAS MAN BEEN ABLE TO LIVE A GOOD LIFE THESE DAYS WITH OUT THE DIRECION OF GOD, LIKE IT WAS BEFORE ?????

BEFORE YOU ANSWER THAT QUESTION THINK ABOUT IT?????


THERE IS SO MUCH MORE TO ADD TO THIS BUT I WOULD BE GOING INTO ANOTHER TOPIC, WICH WOULD BE WHAT WE KNOW NOW AS "THE END OF THE WORLD".

THE END OF SATAN AND HIS DEMONS, AND HIS FOLLOWERS... WICH GOD WILL DO VERY SOON...

NOW IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO HEAR ABOUT THAT I WOULD NOT MIND SHARING THAT WITH YOU..

MINDSTORM..........

[Guybrush]

IN [...] YOU..

MINDSTORM..........

[first one, lol ]
stoopid post, i know

g

[This message has been edited by Guybrush (edited April 27, 2000).]

[Mr Weasel]

In my opinion, i think of religion as a sensitive subject. Some statements may contain words that would offend some believers, although we don't intend to.
What i'm trying to say is i think it would be wise not to discuss about religion in an open forum like this.

[Nex]

Reply to Mindstorm's Post:

Do you really believe what you said?
I mean deep in your heart.. do you believe what u posted?

I will ask you something:
you believe in an allmighty god?

Why is your god bound to time? Why doesnt he know what will come before it happens?
Why should "THE END OF SATAN AND HIS DEMONS, AND HIS FOLLOWERS..." happen NOW?
Why not from the beginning?

Or does god not know everything?
.. but then he is not allmighty.

I dont believe in this kind of physical god that you mean.

I believe in something like a force. Like the inner order of everything.

P.S. its unpolite to write in caps lock - in case you didnt know.

[Nex]

.

[This message has been edited by Nex (edited April 27, 2000).]

[Mindstorm]

SORRY FOR THE DUPLICATE REPLY. MY COMPUTER FROZE ON ME WHEN IT WAS IN MIDDLE OF TRANSACTION....

HET guybrush WHAT R U TRYING TO SAY ON YOUR COMMENT?????

TRUE I THINK ON WHAT MR WEASEL SAID, THIS CAN BE A TUCHY TOPIC, BUT YOU HAVE TO BE MATURE, I THINK IN ORDER TO TALK ABOUT RELIGION SO OPENLY.... AND NOT BE SO HARD HEADED LIKE SOME PEOPLE CAN ARE.....

[Mindstorm]

In reply to NEX coment:

To begin with i did not realize my caps were on.

Before i go any further, i have a question for you !

Do you know anything about the start of all this? And what about the life of Jesus here on Earth?

Answer these questions and i will respond to your questions ..

On thing i will tell you is that you must have just read through what i mentioned earlier, and not have thought about it, because it answers one of your questions on " Why not from the begining ".....

[T@tsu]

I really feel sorry for those who take lifes lessons and make the decision to do wrong.

I have a friend, Mark, he was beaten and raped by his step father. As he grew he became worse and worse. Beating and raping a firend of ours. He is in jail now. He doesn't belive in a kind God. Just an evil one that agrees with what he did. "Look I got my three squares and a place to sleep. I feel like beating the $h!t out of someone, I can, so go f*ck your loving God." was a common express from him.

Try to help people like this if you get the chance. Help everyone.

------------------
-T@tsu

[Nex]

Do I know anything about the start of all this?

I guess you mean the religious version of the beginning of the world? Genesis?
Yes I do.

Do I know about Jesus and the New Testament?

Yes I do.

In fact I heard all this for years and very often. Maybe too often because I began to really think about it all.

So I would like to hear what you have to say.


Specifically:

"We do have a loving god."
Q: What are the indicators for this?

You are talking about angels etc.
Q: This derives mostly from the old Testament. Do you know that the old testament consits mostly of synonyma/symbolisms and not actual historical events?

[Jess]

umm... *eep* no comment I guess. I just want to say that agree with Dhabih... and um... try to keep it clean?

[This message has been edited by Jess (edited May 15, 2000).]

[Nex]

*prepares obsidian dagger to sacrifice jess to KALI*.. No just kidding.

I don't try to attack anyone or any religion. Its just my opinion on, in this case mindstorm's, beliefs here.

[seas]

"To begin with i did not realize my caps were on." you didnt realize? you typed for at least 10 mins and didnt realize? right, so it wasn't because you wanted more attention? rrrrrrright, you're so full of shit.

[invisyblninja]

Religion is the one false hood of man kind! Ooops... Did I think out loud again? Oh, well.

The ninja has spoken...

[Count Zero]

The greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people?

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COUNT ZERO INTERRUPT-
On receiving an interrupt,
decrement the counter to zero.

[invisyblninja]

I have nothing against "religion," it's just not for me!



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"You must die... I alone am best!!!"

[Mindstorm]

Reply to Seas comment about "CAPS" :

If it really bothers you that i over looked that my caps were on ,and even though i might have realized it when i was typing, my intentions were not to YELL or to get any ones attention... So if you want to make it a big deal keep it to your self because as i mentioned before, and this will be the last time i say it, i did not think of it at the time. I was concentrated on what i was typing.

So if you want to add to this wich im sure you will its your problem and please keep your uneducated vocabulary to your self. Im sure no body appreciates your low vocabulary..

[Mindstorm]

Reply to " Questioning Mindstorms belief"

I assume you question my beliefs as you stated on a previous comment. Why?

[Mindstorm]

Replt to Nex "We do have loving God"
Q: What are the indicators for this?

Take a good look at your self! Your alive right? You can see, hear, taste, touch, and etc. These are many of the few things God gave us to enjoy life, because he loves us...

Look out the window, or even better have you been to the Ocean? What about a National Park? Have you seen what we who live in the city do not see every day out in the country or near hugh mountains like in Alaska, etc...

How many flowers are you aware of that exist in this world? What about the diferant shapes, colors, etc.. Again he created this for us to enjoy, even thogh we dont realize orjust think about that for a second being the fact these are small things that shows that he loves us, again for us to enjoy...

Okay! Now what about the Sun? We all know that it is a very strong source of energy.

Has it ever acured to you how is it that the Earth it self does not freeze over, nor does it over heat and dry out...

God put the sun just in the right place to keep us warm when needed,with out us burning up... (you know what i mean!)

All this again because he loves us,and wanted us to live a good life...

Most of all he gave us a partner in life.
Femals! He wanted us not only to enjoyed the earth and his creations but to enjoy it with a partner, a wife...

There are many more reason on indicators of love from god, but it would be to much to write, and im sure you agree with what i had to say about it...

And yes the Old Testimant did have historical events!! REF: The Flood/Ten Comandments ect did that not happen?

[Nex]

The Old Testament contains historical data: true.
Most of it although are equations or examples, stories to show a "do" or "don't".

I you would believe that everything thats written in the old testament happened as it is written:

.) The people of Israel left Egypt with Moses as their leader. When they came to the sea God gave Moses the power to part the water so the people of israel could walk through. The egypts chasing behind them.
As soon as moses and his followers came to the other beach god drowned all egyptian soldiers in the sea. Is that something a loving god does? Or is it rather what an angry god does?

.) Before he sent the angels to egypt to kill every first born child there. Is that what a loving god does?

.) A short time after the journey from egypt he gives moses the two Stones with the law on the mountain horeb. one of them is : You shall not murder.
Does god not live by his own law?

.) there are flowers-- true.
but there are poisonous ones too.

there is the ocean--
but there is not enough water for all to drink.

I can taste, touch , hear---
and I can feel pain.

"God" did not "put" the sun anywhere.
If you had physics in any stadium of your life you would know that we live on one of milliards of planets in our galaxy. There is not just ONE sun, there is not just ONE planet. That live evolved on earth is just a lucky chase. One in 10 million probability maybe.

Humans were not formed from clay.
Do you read in the bible anything about dinosaurs? But they existed.

Somehow it scares me what you imply by what you say.. mainly because I thoght we were in the year 2000 now and we know that the sun does not rotate around the earth..

He gave us a partner in life..
How many people do not find a partner?

And how can a species live when it cannot reproduce?

I think you have an overly romantic view of everything around you..

- The flowers are not bright so we can be happy but to attract bees.

- The Fruits do not taste good because they were made for us but its just a storage of stark for the plant.

- Animals don't coexist peacefully with us. Wolves don't give a damn about you when they are hungry and you are nearby and look harmless to them.

The way the things are is just because it has proven helpful for them (though Evolution) to be the way they are.

There is a LOT of proof that man was NOT formed from clay.. (this really sound very silly to me, I can't help but laugh)

I've been into science now for many years .. there IS evolution but not "creation" in nature.

[Mindstorm]

here is a question for ya, and this would help you understand in reply to your comment of " If God is a loving God like the bible says, then why did he kill the Egyptian soldiers "

First do you know what type of people of people the Isrealites were in Gods eyes ?????

[Jesus4Life]

Religion is just a crutch for the weak minded

[This message has been edited by Jesus4Life (edited May 14, 2000).]

[invisyblninja]

LOL!!! I like the last post... I agree.



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"You must die... I alone am best!!!"

[Tinusch]

Mindstorm: Just curious, what religion are you?

[Dylanphile]

I have been doing a series of comics called Those Darn Mormons. http://www.dntdesign.com/crazyjoe/tdm.html