[Aaron]

I am terrified that I am not using my time effectively. This post is a desperate attempt to assure myself that I am. And to get advice on how to improve my practice. Please tell me what I'm doing wrong or right!

I paint small - Usually 3X5 paintings. I read on your site the advantage of painting many times small over fewer large.
I don't use layers - You say these are limiting, and I believe you.
I use almost no refernce - (except for things that have to look realistic (weapons/vehicles)) Never use another artists work for reference. I'm not sure what your opinion on reference is. I'm afraid of it. Its too easy for me to become completely dependant on, It takes control and everything goes static. I first work from my head, and then go back and correct myself with reference. Is this a good idea? Should I be using reference more while I'm learning?
I paint ALOT - Whoever paints the most wins. No such thing as talent.
I don't read anything from Frank Herbert! - All garbage! (except the first Dune, that was great)

Most of my anatomy (etc) studies are still done in pencil, but study them I do. I have drawn damn near a thousand skeletons this week. (Goldfinger's book is amazing!!).

Sir, please tell me how to use my time better!

[spooge demon]

Many here can help you with these ideas, no need to address it to me only. There are a lot of roads to Rome, and a lot of people here who could help you, not just me.

"I paint small - Usually 3X5 paintings. I read on your site the advantage of painting many times small over fewer large."

Yes, that is a good idea, to go through the process as many times as you can, but don't neglect doing more finished work. Sketches and finished stuff support each other, you can't neglect one for the other. Sometimes you really need to control something exactly, and what you learn there can be abbreviated in sketches.

"I don't use layers - You say these are limiting, and I believe you."

?? did I say that? Hmm, I use them as extended undos mostly. I don't think there is any harm in using them?


"I use almost no reference - (except for things that have to look realistic (weapons/vehicles)) Never use another artists work for reference. I'm not sure what your opinion on reference is. I'm afraid of it. Its too easy for me to become completely dependant on, It takes control and everything goes static. I first work from my head, and then go back and correct myself with reference. Is this a good idea? Should I be using reference more while I'm learning? "

When you are first starting out it is difficult to do much without direct reference. As you get more experience, you would me amazed at how you can use things you see and notice. But copying photos can be useful in the beginning to learn control of media and to learn to look hard at things. Don't skimp on working from life, or you will not be able to see the box that photography can put you in. I think most artists start with an eye for naturalism and progress to more stylistic interpretations, which is natural. Working from photos too much make you a shape designer, the least interesting of all.

But photos are not the devil, as I have said before, look at better illustrators who work from them exclusively. What so you do with photos that makes it good or bad. It is not sufficient to answer the question "working from photos-good or bad?" and judge all according to the answer. It is a tool to be used well or embarrassingly abused. It's mostly abused, though, imho.


"I paint ALOT - Whoever paints the most wins. No such thing as talent."

Not to start that debate again, what you state is a simplification. Can you sustain the interest you have now over many years? That will be the difference, and a large part of talent. There is no substitute for doing it a lot. You cannot think yourself into doing something well. You have to paint as naturally as you write or breathe. Takes time and patience that cannot fade. You will reach plateaus where you will be frustrated and it seems like you are making the same mistakes over and over again. Bierstadt was a hopeless hack, and he blossomed overnight. Many thought he had a little dwarf who did his paintings, because the hopeless painter he was could not have possibly produced what he later did.

So if you can sustain your interest, you will get a lot better. No guarantees that you will become a great master, that is maybe real talent, but no doubt you can learn to be a solid professional.

"I don't read anything from Frank Herbert! - All garbage! (except the first Dune, that was great)"

I want to find the green brain. I remember that one as being pretty cool.

"Most of my anatomy (etc) studies are still done in pencil, but study them I do. I have drawn damn near a thousand skeletons this week. (Goldfinger's book is amazing!!)."

Goldfinger is pretty amazing. I like the old academic approach of working from plaster casts. It is working in the round, so important, so you do not have the danger of just copying values and shapes, has a simplification of materials and surfaces, doesn't move, etc. It is perfect to start with. If I was starting again, this is how I would go. Working from the live model too soon can be wasteful and frustrating.

Keep your mind open and stay curious about everything. Be analytical to a fault. Study all facets of art and art history. Learn how we got where we are today.

[AndyT]

Another tip by "Mr Mullins" would be ... even if you just draw/paint your skeletons put a box around them. Like that you'll have practised composition a thousand times as well as anatomy.

Maybe you could show some of your work ... so people can point out what you need to work on most.
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http://www.conceptworld.org

[Ian Jones]

"Working from photos too much make you a shape designer, the least interesting of all."

I didn't get that bit. Can you plz clarify?

[[666]Flat]

I think what he's saying is you need a solid knowledge base of the physical world (like anatomy and light and stuff) to develop on the grounds of that a half-way decent style. If you don't develop no own style all you're basically doing is tracing photos.
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[jr]

wow, flat in a serious post?
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[Drunken Monkey]

Photos won't teach you to see things in volume, but in shapes. Thats what he means.

[Aaron]

Man Alive was I hopped up on caffeine when I started this thread. Usually when I have a few too many code reds, I start talking to imaginary people. The other night I was chatting with Craig Mullins for two hours "Does this look ok Mr Mullins?" "Oh yes, good job!" "What about you think Mr Frazetta?" I forgot that I had written this until I saw the topic "Mr Mullins, how...." and cringed.

Layers are ok, I will use them then. I believe Mr Mullins said that they make edges hard to work with. I've noticed that. Just don't go overboard I guess.

I've been trying to limit my use of reference for line drawings for awhile. But I'm beginning to realize that I don't know enough about light and color yet to go without it for painting. Travis Charest uses no reference for his human figure, and he has the most dynamic characters I know of, besides of course for Frazetta. And although I'm not sure, I suspect that Frazetta didn't use reference either. I will get a plaster 3D skeleton! I sculpt some too, I think that helps to visulize 3D.

I didn't mean to simplify talent so much. What I meant was that I don't believe that there are any inherent abilities that make a great artist. I don't believe that a roll of cosmic dice makes one artist great, and another halfass. I think the one was more dedicated, and practiced more, and if you define talent, it's the love that drove the one to develop his skill further. I hope I'm not wrong on that. I'm behind everyone else in painting, and I'd like to think if I practice enough I can catch up. It will suck if I find out that I don't have "what it takes". I love painting (but couldn't afford it until recently), I hope I love it enough to one day be considered "not sh***y"

Here are a couple I'm working on, I want very much to paint. But my stuff looks like it was done by a 5 year old norwegian child.

An example of a more finished pencil drawing
http://www.lead-works.com/files/art/pencil/Godzilla1985_wasbyfar_thebestGodzilla.jpg

An example of a line drawing, intended for painting. I do as much as I can from my head, and correct with reference.

http://leadworks.homestead.com/files/legends/05.jpg
I have a few more here (I'm sure you give a damn).
http://leadworks.homestead.com/files/legends/art_update.html

These I'm painting, no backgrounds yet.

http://leadworks.homestead.com/files/legends/01.jpg
http://leadworks.homestead.com/files/legends/03.jpg

My speed paintings are trash. Give me a while and I'll show them. Thank you for responding. I don't know why I addressed this only to Mr Mullins other than that I am insane. I actually would very much like advice from others.

Is anyone else terrified that they are not practicing enough, that they will fall behind, end up an old second rate artist, who is ground up and fed to a band of roaming midgets inorder to appease their awful wrath?

[gArGOyLe^]

Excellent thread Since the only tools for art I have are pencils and my wacom I draw a lot from photos when i'm infront of the computer. But almost every day I do to a park out side my university.. sit down on a bench and sketch all I can. I don't know if thats the right thing to do or not.

And Aaron. I think your work is awesome

[Aaron]

Thank you gArGOyLe^, that means alot to me.

[Ian Jones]

ahhh k.

[Aboogwa]

[Aaron]

Hi Aboogwa

I'm trying to develop my shading, and to find better methods. So, if anyone can help me with some tips, I would welcome them.

For this drawing I started shading lightly, and kept going over the image again and again until the shadows were defined. For the highlights and light rays, I tried to keep them in mind while shading, but ended up using my eraser to draw them in (one reason I like the pentel click eraser is that I can use it like a pencil. They also sell fine tipped click erasers that are great). There are white pastel sticks specifically for highlighting drawings, and I really like the look they make, but I've never tried them myself.

"Does creating the really black blacks require considerable force with the pencil?"

No, I would be too scared to do that. I go over it several times, using a softer lead.

"When you do the outlining, do you also outline the sharply defined shadows?"

Not on this one. I didn't really have a plan (though I probably should have) and the shadows aren't very well defined. I would though on a picture with lots of sharp shadows. I would lightly plan them out after I had finished the other line work. I used to try to outline all areas of light and dark, and make up the forms from many small shapes. But it was too messy to start shading until I finished all the lines, and I'd end up with a jumbled mess of lines. So I gave that up. But I hear that is what gouche painters do, create everything with small shapes of color, I can imagine how difficult that is. In painting or inking (from what I've noticed), you have to have a plan for your shading before you begin. Since I want to learn to paint, I think I will plan out my shading when using a pencil too. So, in answer to your question, I will from now on!

"What kind of paper did you use for this drawing? Did you use a standard A4 typing paper with the 3mm and 7mm mechanical pencil combo?"

I used Bristol Board and the mechanical pencils.

[ZippZopp]

sweeet!! another bristol board and mechanical pencil user!! i love bristol board and mechanical pencils! the thing i've found that works quite well is a kneaded eraser with mechanical pencils. these pencils can really be erased back quite well, especially with an electric eraser!

as for really thin sharp highlights, this is a technique i found in a book, called the indenting technique. decide where you want your thin highlights, place a piece of tracing paper over your drawing and use a dulled down pencil to push down where the highlights should go. basically you indent the paper so that when you go over it with pencil it stays white! its a great technique.

i've been getting quite frustrated because i've been sketching a lot lately in a sketchbook and whenever i try to draw from my head i freeze up and can't do it. how can i get past this obstacle!?

[Mitz]

I found that black and white photography lessons have helped improve my pencil drawings tremendously. Understanding what makes a good quality bw photograph allowed me to understand what a good quality pencil drawing is. Since photography is so simple in capturing an image and less work producing it (unlike actually drawing), you learn to realize two very important factors. They are Composition and Tone. Once you've been exposed to several images, you become keen on realizing what truly is an outstanding work of monochromatic art. Personally I believe this can only be accomplished through experience, not looking at "good" and "bad" photos in books. Printing photo takes several attempts of trial and error, and realizing when the photo is at its best is the skill that helped me realize the potential a pencil drawing can have.

[bluetraveller]

Whenever I "freeze" and run out of ideas or inspirations, I immediately run outside with a sketch pad. Then I draw anything that has a decent amount of shape, contrasts and interesting shapes. I don't try to draw anything technically "perfect". Capturing the visceral emotion is important here. It's the "right" brain that needs to be fed and the "left" brain - the critical part surpressed.

After I've got about an hour's worth of stuff, i go running back to my desk and then start extrapolating on what i've scribbled down. Sometimes a particular shape inspires an incredible composition, other times, the full force of emotion whether it be in a sunset, a dead plant or whatever compels me to draw from that emotion.

As soon as I've figured out what I want to draw. And by the way...that's much easier after doing "right brain" activity...I then let allow my critical half to help define how the image will look.

By the way Aaron. Great Thread. I think that EVERY ARTIST feels like this one way or another. You wouldn't be an artist if you didn't operate from a wee bit of fear. I love your skeleton facing the elf picture. Excellent stuff! I'm not even at that level yet!

cheers
_________________
"Oh what a tangled web we weave
When first we practise to deceive"

[Aaron]

ZippZopp, I have learned an exercise off of an animation site (http://aimee.wyvernweb.com/?98,45) that has helped me tremendously. I take a big stack of paper and a pen (no erasers). I decide on a subject (a midget wielding a stolen yard ornament, a police officer beating a homeless man, etc) and then I draw quick sketches (1 to 2 minute), no details, no correcting. One after another, several on a sheet, and I do that for at least an hour. If I get tired of the subject I switch to something else. At first it always seems like I'm wasting my time, but then ideas start coming I'd never have imagined where locked away in my head. When I first started this exercise it would take at least 30 minutes to get to that point, but it is now much faster. Afterards I go back through and take some of the good ones and do a more finished sketch of the figure, still all from memory. I do as much from memory as possible, and only then use reference to correct it. I fix the anatomy and folds of clothing (etc), but I'm careful not to let the reference take control. I have also tried this with just faces, and hands/feet, and complete compositions. It seems to be helping me alot.

Mitz, black and white photography huh? That sounds like a good idea. I'll have to try that!

Bluestraveller, I like the idea of that exercise, I'm going to try that. I do almost no drawings from real life, and from what I hear, that is the most important source of inspiration. Thanks for your response, I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who feels this way.

[ZippZopp]

thanks Aaron. i appreciate your help, i will get to tryin that exercise out! thanks