[LeChuck]

http://www.xs4all.nl/~dromero/diplomacy.swf

[Snyper]

From what I recall, the US asked (ok told) the Taliban to hand over Bin Laden. They refused stating they wanted some "proof".

The USA has enacted a zero tolerance policy on harboring terrorists. All they have to do is hand the man over to face trial. Though I'm of the opinion that simply putting the man in jail is useless. If anything, that would give other terrorists around the world fuel for the fire they need to perform other terrorist acts.

I imagine that any US soldier that comes across Bin Laden will put a bullet in his head. Frankly, I wouldn't blame that soldier either.

[FireFry]

"I imagine that any US soldier that comes across Bin Laden will put a bullet in his head. Frankly, I wouldn't blame that soldier either. "

Agreed, however Osama wants to be killed by the US so he can die a Martyr. This would fuel even more hate against us 'evil Americans'.

I'd prefer to see him killed by one of his own people or accidently trip on a grenade/land mine.

The most humiliating thing for him would to be captured alive, since he doesn't want that Rotting in jail would only give the terrorists a goal - to get him out. Kill him he becomes a martyr. What a fix....

[Impaler]

I think we ought to fund several small radical leftist groups in order to help them infiltrate and destroy terrorist Totalitarian regimes.

[nomad]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Irfan Yunia:
[QB]
I for one would not shed any tears at the demise of the Taliban as I believe them to be a blot on Islam. And I don’t pay any attention to Bin Ladin's rhetoric. I do however pay attention to the huge pro-Taliban demonstration which have taken place around the Muslim world. [QB]

---

I would have wholeheartedly supported the destruction/replacement of their regime long before the sept. 11 attacks on phenomeal human rights abuses alone. They are as you say a blot against islam. But of course there would be no country (even the US) that would allow itself to appear as though it thought itself "morally superior" to the muslim faith.

quote:

---

But if we don’t pay serious attention to their plight, and their suffering, then there will be many more attacks.
[QB]

---

What will it take, though? The US plans to help rebuild afganistan and aid its people, but that will never be any consolation to pro-taliban/anti US protesters. Usuma demands "peace in the middle east", I'm assuming a palestinian state, but appeasement of aggressors has a bad track record, and the US won't support anything that isreal won't tolerate.

[greenmode]

i see alot of birdbrains flying around here...

seriously, even my seven year old brother has better understanding of all this than some of you.

you say "killem all". i say you been playing to much videogames. this is not "Counter strike" man. real innocent people are involved here, both in their side and ours. i say lets not make a bigger hole for ourselves. lets start thinking about others for a change. a genocide against them is a genocide against our children and grandchildren.

it always helps to put yourself in someone elses shoes. huh? you all artists right? use your imaginations.

[empyrios]

quote

Quote:

I think we ought to fund several small radical leftist groups in order to help them infiltrate and destroy terrorist Totalitarian regimes.

Sounds like a good idea to me! Except we've already got some on our payroll.

I have no doubt that our CIA has been, and is continuing to attempt the first (infiltration to collect information -- surely they're enduring enormous criticism after they dropped the ball with the WTC) and that our military will achieve the latter in this case.

The current bombing may be effective as an attempt to put political pressure on the Taliban and lead to their collapse so we can install another government. George Bush -- former major league baseball team owner, now -- nation builder! But that's another sad subject.

However, if that pressure fails, it will be left to the Special Operations Groups from the coalition nations to go into the mountains and chase the terrorists. In fact, I think this will happen regardless of who rules in Afghanistan. It shouldn't be too hard for them to find Bin Laden -- did anyone else notice that he was wearing jungle camouflage in the desert? Silly extremists.

Cross your fingers and hope for the quick surrender of the Taliban, it's really the only way to stop the military onslaught and avoid the growing backlash over the inevitable civilian casualties.

- Rich [ empyrean / iCE ]

[sacrelicious]

Rich, I take it your sarcasm detector is malfunctioning.

"Ooh, a sarcasm detector! That's a real useful invention!"

[Irfan Yunia]

Read this in todays newspaper. Makes interesting reading.

quote:

---

A colleague of mine tried, in a radio interview the other day, to unlink the bin Laden phenomenon from the West's baleful history in the Middle East that he seriously suggested that the attacks were timed to fall on the anniversary of the defeat of Muslim forces at the gates of Vienna in 1683. Unfortunately, the Poles won their battle against the Turks on 12, not 11, September. But when the terrifying details of the hijacker Mohamed Atta's will were published last week, dated April 1996, no one could think of any event that month that might have propelled Atta to his murderous behaviour.

Not the Israeli bombardment of southern Lebanon, nor the Qana massacre by Israeli artillery of 106 Lebanese civilians in a UN base, more than half of them children. For that's what happened in April, 1996. No, of course that slaughter is not excuse for the crimes against humanity in the United States last month. But isn't it worth just a little mention, just a tiny observation, that an Egyptian mass-murderer-to-be wrote a will of chilling suicidal finality in the month when the massacre in Lebanon enraged Arabs across the Middle East?

---

Written by Robert Fisk.

Full story can be found on http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=98407

[roundeye]

how do you stop it? hmm, dealing specifically with arab terrorism against the US you have to look at what they want. they want the US to pull out their forces, stop meddling, and stop supporting israel. i think if the states did that and then nuked themselves that would stop terrorism for a little while. just straight up in the air and right back down. boom! this would also have the added benifit of eliminating american sponsored acts of terrorism.

[/tongue in cheek]

[ October 09, 2001: Message edited by: roundeye ]

[Lemur-X]

Take out America, take out the world's economy, FYI.

[burn0ut]

id imagine if all the terrorist are dead there wouldnt be any terrorism?

so.. kill all terrorist should be the plan ;O

[roundeye]

you cant even find them!

[burn0ut]

details details..

[Akolyte]

I think they should start paying mobs of psycho teenagers like me to go kill terrorists for money...Just drop us off in Uzbekistan and hand me a 30 mm round sniper rifle, and BLAM!!! Bloody Towels Everywhere!
I would love to be the one to give Osama a nice head shot...After we're done with all of this, I think we should let the Nation of Islam fall back upon itself, and totally ignore it, because they obviosuly don't give a shit if they're harboring these sand chewing half-wits. They don't want us there? Fine by me. Isolation will give them a taste of what they really need, which is civilization. And if you think this is harsh, then go tell the leaders of these countries to start supporting some freakin' logical ways of life. I used to be scared, but I realized it was only for my own life. American ideals can never be touched. I'm off to go eat Hot Dogs and watch baseball...

[roundeye]

they have mobs of psycho teenagers as well. and theyre better trained than you are.

[Akolyte]

How so? No effective schooling, and they have limited knowledge of Kalishnakov semi-automatic rifles. They are faceless cowards, and obviously cannot resort to tactile skirmishes, because they will lose. I was being sarcastic up there, but these guys are pretty limited without funded money to buy their pussy weapons. They are armed with Fruit Roll-Ups and Slingshots, and eat goat hide for fun...gimme a break. Once our Special Ops and MEU's get the go-ahead, they'll find 'em and eat their jugulars. They will know what pain is when they feel the silent slice of a Marine Corps K-Bar through the left side of their neck.

[Lemur-X]

War-torn and countries that are under constant threat produce the *REAL* killing machines. Look at Israel.

No single force, sans atomic weaponry, can top a motivated nation of people with nothing to lose. Be that nation recognized, or a group of religious zealots.

I mean, look what happened to the U.S. boys in Somalia. The enemy drug the fight out, long enough to fall back, and do more damage to the 'superior' U.S. troops than they could dish out.

--Steve

[roundeye]

faceless = smart cruise missiles and clusterbombs, my friend. and if thats not cowardly, then niether are thier tactics. and im glad to hear you were being sarcastic. i honestly couldnt tell.

and lemur makes a good point, israel is a unfair example, but a good point none the less.

[Lemur-X]

How are they an unfair example?

The level of their military, comparitively, is LEAPS AND BOUNDS ahead of the U.S.

They may have U.S. weaponry, yet that doesn't explain the ferocity with which they fight.

[Akolyte]

roundeye, faceless is taking a commercial jetliner and killing non-combatants who are non-equipped. We told them their would be retaliation, these are effective means of destroying their shitholes without putting our valued troops on their ground.

We could clone some Ghurkas and send those guys in...

[edit] I can't spell.

[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: Akolyte ]

[roundeye]

sorry, youre right. they do have a ferocious military (too ferocious at times, but ill stay away from that). i just meant its hard to guess where theyd be now without massive US support. that dosent invalidate your point though, so i retract my previous statement.

[roundeye]

how is that faceless akolyte? they came into your country on foot, they highjacked the plane in person by hand! thats the least faceless you can get AND its ballsy, not cowardly. i really dont understand how that term can be thrown around like that. pardon me, lets not argue semantics. i know you think im anti american akolyte, but im really not. im not super pro american either. seems like everyone is expected to be in times like this though.

[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: roundeye ]

[Jock McxSporran]

1) As long as the US insists on spreading it's insipid "culture" all around the planet in the name of making a buck there will be people who resent it. Do not kid yourselves that they are confined to the Islamic world either. Despite what the US/ UK propaganda bandwagon might tell you there are plenty of white, non-islamic Europeans who would despise the US just as much.

2) The current situation is completely and utterly of the US' own making. The US armed and funded the Mujahideen for years while they were killing Soviets, and they always favoured the most extreme Islamists because it was felt they were better fighters. After the Soviets left and Afghanistan fell into civil war the US continued to arm and fund the Taleban against the other Mujahideen factions because it was believed they stood the best chance of overthrowing the communist government left in place when the Russians left. Up until 6 years ago the US still had a Special Envoy to the Taleban, charged with aiding them in their continuiing struggle against communism. Once the Taleban were successful the US turned it's back on the country and the whole world forgot about it. If you want to blame anyone blame yourselves. After all. your government is "By the People For The People" isn't it?

[Akolyte]

I know, I was taking this personally, and I should not be, I apologize. I'm sorry if I piss people off, but it really hurts when I hear people put our country and it's methods down, when we have, in our goals, nothing but peace laid down on golden pathways. I do agree with you on the fact that we should just leave them alone, but we need to retaliate and eliminate this problem altogether. We are not perfect, albeit far from it. But by God, we aren't out to screw the world over tenfold, either. This crap jut pisses me off, and hearing anything anti-US just trips my switch. How can these people hate us so, especially when you see them burning our flag, with a background shot of US supplied food. All of this seems to boil down to our "interference" in their Holy Land. What would have happened without our "interference."

[FireFry]

First off I think it's a good thing that we are cracking down on terrorism. This isn't something that can be ignored anymore.

But there are a lot of 'dirty little secrets' lingering in the core of the US government that the people don't know about. I doubt a lot of people sat down and though about what's been going on oversea's that led to this attack, did we do something to piss these people off? Every action has an oppsite reaction.

Right now people are grieving while others are demanding blood. They don't care about what other people in foreign counties think as long as they have their way.

The past couple days in the news the same thing was being echoed in more than 1 news report "go back to your daily lives, don't worry about whats going on overseas".

To me this is more insentive to watch the government like a hawk, before everything that's happened polititions made the news through more scandals than I care to think about. We need to ask ourselves if they are acting in our interests...or theirs.

[Steven Stahlberg]

Just a few random late night musings.

I saw this 'good ole boy' called Imus doing his radio show live on MSNBC this morning, he was full of shit about Islam and arabs; sitting there in a tattered cowboyhat he had the gall to try to lecture us what the Koran says.
"It tells the moslems to spread their religion by any means necessary, to kill..." I don't remember his exact words, but he was pissed at someone who had defended the Koran. He compared Islam to Christianity and said Islam has killed more people, something like that.

Damn that kind of crap makes me angry. I wouldn't be surprised if a gang of morons in Iowa or Nebraska went out and 'kilt themselves a ay-rab' after listening to that shit. Except he might not even be an arab or even a moslem at all, but a sikh (it's already happened). "Hell, who cares, it's a damn towel-head anyway."

Hot dogs and baseball are good childhood memories to have, but not the only good ones to have. My childhood memories are very different, and I wouldn't change them for anything.

But what about those 80% of the world's kids whose childhood memories are nothing but dust and flies and explosions? You must realize it's pure luck we were born in industrialized western nations. It's nothing to get cocky about, instead we should be humble, perhaps [gasp] feel a tiny bit guilty even? Mums are faced with "Sophie's Choice" every day on this wonderful planet, as they must give whatever food they find to the strongest child they have, so at least one of them *might* survive. Meanwhile WallMart Superstores have special motorized carts to carry those who are too overweight to walk around these enormous treasure-houses of nourishment...

We mustn't start equating American things with "Christian" and "Good", and arabs and Islam with "Evil". I know it's tempting, but we must resist.

On the other hand, we can't blame the US for this whole mess either. If we must point fingers I guess it would be at whoever decided Israel was to be created in that particular spot. That whole issue is by far the biggest reason we have arab terrorists today.

And by the way, the reason American culture is spreading over the whole world is simply because of the unstoppable combination: capitalism + the size and wealth of the North American continent. Unfortunate, but can't be helped. It is *not* being done on purpose. The moment America was discovered, the snowball started rolling downhill...

[burn0ut]

i think ive heard everything in this thread at least 20 times before.

[FireFry]

You must realize it's pure luck we were born in industrialized western nations.

Very true, I though I'd bold that for those who like to skim the postings.

"Mums are faced with "Sophie's Choice" every day on this wonderful planet, as they must give whatever food they find to the strongest child they have, so at least one of them *might* survive. "

Not too many people spend a lot of time thinking about that because of it being "disturbing thoughs". So it's pushed into the back of their heads like it doesn't exist.

A lot of people take too many things for granted, big and small. While people fret about the scratch on their new car other people have to pool their money to even afford a used car. Just to back up a point in Carmel/Monterey, CA some of the youth there can be very snobbish. A good reason is that their parents have a ton of money to throw around. Before they even graduate from high school they get a brand stinkin' new car as a present, and guess what some of them have bitched about. The color, "oh I don't like red, take it back". I'm not BS'ing this either. Some of us have become so trivial over stupid things it's mind boggling.

But throughout time the rich have never really cared for the middle or poor classes now have they? So why should they worry about things happening overseas if it's nowhere close to home.

"We mustn't start equating American things with "Christian" and "Good", and arabs and Islam with "Evil". I know it's tempting, but we must resist. "

Agreed

"...The moment America was discovered, the snowball started rolling downhill... "

no kidding

[Steven Stahlberg]

Hm, I've only heard everything about 7 times before, guess I suck.

edit:

[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: Steven Stahlberg ]