[Poprocksz]

Irfan Yunia: Exactly

Steven:all of the above

[Steven Stahlberg]

'Punishment' in your opinion, or just from Bin Laden's POV?

[Irfan Yunia]

Nice to see someone appreciates the quest for justice!!!, Poprockzs


I am a Muslim, always have been, always will be. Ever since the WTC tradegy (no quotes!!!), because it was a real tradegy, I have been asked "whose side are you on?". My reply is simple, "I am on the side of justice." Justice for all. Not justice for some.

And that meams punishing the bastards who attacked and killed thousands of innocent people, in the name of my faith. I and many fellow Muslims have nothing in common with these people. Thier understanding of Islam is completly alien to me.

But I come back to my earlier point, you cannoy have justice without peace and vice versa. The UN security council has passed two resolutions regarding Terrorism. giving the US is blessing in any action.

The Palestinians have an entire bookshelf full of UN resolutions. Has anybody paid any attention. No instead the US just blidly keeps on supporting Israel.

Any wonder the Terrorists who attacked WTC were Arabs.

And these disagreements with the US Foriegn policy is not just some mild intellectual isagreement. Disagreement in Middle Eastern terms means life and death.

It is US made F-16s that bomb Palestinian refugee camps. It is US Millitary aid which pays for it. It is US governments which santion the delivery of such lethal weapons.

There can be no peace, untill justice.

If anbody thinks bombing the crap out of Afghanistan will solve anything, the Afghans have been at war for the past 22years. The US can do nothing which has not already been done to them already. They area pittyful people. (I mean the population and not the government).

The last person to conquor Afghanistan was Alexander the Great.

Good Luck

[Irfan Yunia]

Just one last point cos its 11pm in UK.

Over the past two tragic weeks I have engaged in a great deal of debates over the net, and may I say that this forum is the most mature one I have seen.

Nice to see that the art world can keep thier heads together at such an upsetting time

[Steven Stahlberg]

Glad to hear this place is comparatively mature.

I sympathize with suffering people all over the world, not the least of them the Palestinian people. But sometimes I just despair about that whole situation - how can there ever be justice in a situation were two peoples are willing to kill and die for the same tiny spot of ground? Which one of them do we support? None? Then Israel would have been obliterated many years ago. Both? How would that work?
Of course the US are biased towards Israel, and I'm sure mistakes have been made, on both sides. But I think the US has done a lot for the peace process in the Middle East, at least these last decades. Hasn't it?

About bombing the crap out of Afghanistan, that is exactly what Bin Laden is hoping and praying will happen (nice way to treat your hosts huh). His thinking is of course that this will trigger a populistic muslim uprising all across the world, that will rise like a tidal wave and defeat the weak and corrupt Western powers in a short but cataclysmic war. I'm sure they realise this in the Pentagon and NATO, and so saturation-bombing is not an option.

On the contrary, so far since the WTC attack, 25 million US$ worth of aid has gone to the Afghan people from the USA. And counting.

But - IMHO the Taliban MUST go, one way or another. If it takes US military action, I'm all for it, as long as they leave quickly once the objective is accomplished.

I saw a cartoon the other day, the Taliban regime was staring in horror and utter panic at an ultimatum sent to them from the USA. It read: "If you don't give up Bin Laden, we will send your women to college."

[Awetopsy]

should 7000 people dying in less than 1 hour be something we 'get over' in 1 month, because somebody wanted to make a point about their religion vs. ours? It still makes me sick to think about it.

[Jabberwocky]

Steven Stahlberg:
What you said about the bombing of Afghanistan you're right that is probably what he wants. Big country gets mad at small ones - big country then attacks small ones sending small country into a dark area... and Bin Laden units the small countrys creating another simi-powerful country... Germany was going through a depression when Hitler took over and we all know where that went. Many people say Bin Laden is a lot like Hitler.

Who knows... And Bush did give a good speech... Although he looks like a monkey... we had a kid in class take Bush's pics and put them next to monkeys...

[Freddio]

funny cartoon Steven,

[FireFry]

Well I learned a few new things here today

[sacrelicious]

You know, the Iraqis would be getting aid from the U.S. if we knew Saddam Hussein wasn't going to just throw it away. When we sent food and medicine to Iraq, he fed and treated his troops and supporters and destroyed or stockpiled the remainder. He wants his people to think that America is evil, but really, the worst enemy of the Iraqi people is Saddam himself. There also wouldn't be sanctions if the Iraqi govt. adhered to the treaty drafted after Desert Storm- remember that? Armed conflict, lots of sand? We won, they lost- that means they have to do what we say. We said stay out of Kuwait, and they did. We also said, stop killing Kurds and making biological and chemical weapons, and we'll send you aid. They didn't, and so we don't. After WWII, the Japanese were forced to dismantle most of their armed forces and acquiesce to our terms. They did just that, and look at them now.

P.S. Yes, the Palestinians got fucked by the U.S., and they still are today. I agree that our policy in the Middle East and worldwide needs to change drastically before anything can get better.

[ October 04, 2001: Message edited by: sacrelicious ]

[starfish]

hm, where to start?...

ok, first,

the "Terror Attack" on 9/11 is more and more
proving to be an insider job.
this means that people from the intelligence
community were involved in the planning,
maybe, also in the performance.

since I see most of the people posting here
are avid cnn watchers the above statement
will most likely get some bad feedback.

before you rush in to throw the propaganda-
machine's crap on me please consider to find
out more on the subject.

there are many places where you can look
for evidence. try the following links for
starters:
indymedia.org
nyc.indymedia.org

if you are still in the cnn propaganda swamp
the above links may be the cause of some
confusion, because you will come across
material that may seem kinda strange.
in any case, use your own intuition to
what is true and what is not.

[Darklighter]

heh, the funniest shit ever was how CNN reported how "everything is peaceful in seattle, the police are handling everything accordingly" and suddenly all these videos of rubber bullets being fired show up on 100's of sites online, so CNN had to change their story an hour afterwards....
while we're at it, also check out www.fair.org and www.globalexchange.org

[Poprocksz]

i think yer talkin about WTO there buddy.....




[ October 04, 2001: Message edited by: Poprocksz ]

[Jock McxSporran]

At a human level this was a tragedy and my heart genuinely goes out to everyone who has suffered, but at a social level we, the West, have had it coming for a long time.

[Irfan Yunia]

Steven:

I dont think pumping Israel with arms is doing anything but damage to the Middle East.

Israel would never be able to do what it does to the Palestinians if it was not for US military, financial and political support. Its a simple fact.

The main reason for many Arabs regarding America as thier enemy is due to this blind support for Israel.

They see the US going after Saddam and applying the letter of the law (UN resolutions). When it comes to the Palestinians, they have resolution after resolution, which goes ignored. The US has consistently vetoed UN security council resoltions condeming Israel for its ruthless behaviour. Double standards or what

It would not even allow the stationing of idependent observers.

The list is endless.

US citizens need to ask themselves they allow thier own government to do this in their name.

The ruthless regime of the Taliban only exists because the US abandoned Afghanistan after the Russians left.


And Awetopsy: Nobody is saying that any of this justifies what happened to the innocent people who perrished in the WTC. They were ordinary people going about thier own business.

And I would just like to say that the people who did this, did not represent the world of Islam, or even the Arab world. They are not Islamic Terrorists, they are simply terrorists. No matter how they try to justify thier eveil deeds.

Living in Britain, we have been faced with terrorism from the IRA for many years. How come nobody ever calls them Christian Terrorists, or even Catholic Terrorists. Yet this is primarily a conflict between Catholics and Protestants. SO please dont give them the honour of calling them Islamic. As we all now people use religion to justify anything.

Ever Muslim I have spoken to is horrified by the WTC attacks.

This was an act or terror on innocent people. But if we dont ask the questions why they targeted the US then we may be having the same discussion in a couple of years time.

I've said before and i'll say it again, "you cannot have peace without justice".

[Irfan Yunia]

sacrelicious:

Why do you think Iraq needs US aid?

Iraq is another typical example of US foriegn policy has gone badly wrong. The US and other Arab Gulf states such as Kuwait and Saudi, supported Saddam in his long war with Iran. My own country Britain, did not sell him the weopons but we gave him the loan credits to buy his weopons elsewere, mainly the Soviet Union.

Saddam was a monster and a butcher to his own people for many years. But the US and the rest of the world stood by and did nothing because he was fighting against Iran.

He even used chemical weopons against his own people (Kurds of northern Iraq) and ecerybody denied it. Infact the news only came to light when an independent British jouranlist went to northern Iraq and took soil samples. These samples were given to a lab in Cambridge University, and they confirmed that Mustard gas had been used recently.

Only then did other governments admit to the fact that the Butcher of Baghdad had slaughtered an entire town of Kurds.

My point is this. We support these animals when they are on our side, when they are doing our dirty work. No matter how they treat their own people. Human rights violations are not given any importance.

But as soon as the dog turns and bites his master, thats when it hurts.

Kuwait was one of the biggest supporters of Saddam Hussain. The dog turned.

When I was at university I rememmber attending a Kuwaiti students dinner, where the chief guest (Kuwaiti Ambassador) talked at length about the greatness of Saddam Hussain.

Only six months later the dog turned.

Before the US and her friends bombed the crap out of Iraq she was a major oil supplier.

Living standards where high.

We werer told before the Gulf war by Bush senior that our fight is with the Iraqi government, not with its people. Yet Saddam still lives and the people of Iraq die.

An estimated 1 million people have died in Iraq since the war, as a direct result either of sanctions or afterefects of the war.

200 children die each week in Iraq of curable childhood diseases.

This war is no longer with Saddam, its is with its people.

you are correct in saying that the worst enemy of the Iraqi people is Saddam himself.

But if we the "civilised" west had not created him. The children of Iraq would have not be suffering.

As they say, what goes round comes round.

[Darklighter]

exactly.... the u.s. didn't play just a small part in getting saddam into power to keep "an eye" on the shit that was going on in iran and surrounding area back then.... the u.s. fires missiles at "military" targets and later finds out, that w00p, they weren't military at all, one of them was a major medicine factory of a poorass country. The news report that "yes, the missile attacks were almost all successful," that's all the public needs to know, after all, who the fuck are they? (just tax payers that finance all this bullshit.... but it's ok, apathy is bliss, all you require in life to be happy is money and the occasional lay).
Does anyone mourn the innocent that died at that medicine factory? Palestinians live in fear every day, but who gives a shit?
I remember when i woke up on sept 11 and heard of what happened, and in a bad way, i was hoping this might be a good thing, people might just open their eyes. But did they? fuck no, they went and stood in line for hours to buy a *gasp* flag, because the media force-fed them that "everyone has to support their country in any way possible." Nothing wrong with patriotism, but maybe this country is what brought this onto us in the first place
I mean, they chose the target they did for a reason. WORLD TRADE CENTER, what do you think that symbolizes? To me it means "rip off the world as much as you can to make more and more and more money."
damn, almost 11am and almost no sleep after a birthday party. must.... stop.... typing.... i'll close with a quote from an article on all of this:
"Media scrutiny of atrocities committed by the U.S. government is rare. Only some cruelties merit the spotlight. Only some victims deserve empathy. Only certain crimes against humanity are worth our tears."

[starfish]

speaking of Saddam,

when the whole world followed the embargo
against Iraq, Cheney's company were found
selling parts to Iraq's oil industry.
guess he thought it would be nice to be alone
making money when all other countries were
fooled to stay away.
Saddam and Bin Laden are pals with the Bush
family. so there is no way they are going
to be harmed nomatter what the Shrub is
saying.
the real loosers are the American people
who now has the worlds most dangerous
man as their leader.
combining business and politics should lead
to lifetime in prison imho.

[ October 05, 2001: Message edited by: starfish ]

[Irfan Yunia]

Great quote Darklighter.

Just to add to this point did anybody read about the 11 Iraqi civilians who where killed by US jets on 10th September.

NO, no one. Come on, at least some newspaper or TV station must have carried this story.

Oops sorry forget. Who gives a fuck about thoses poor fuckers!!!

They are not even worth a 10 second thought in our self righteous lives.

Is it any wonder they hate the "civilized" West so much.

[Lemur-X]

Big difference for me.

The U.S. generally does more good than harm.

Aid programs, for one.

The people in command of those jets not only snuffed out innocent lies, but didn't even follow the law of the religion they were killing in.

Suicide is damnable in their eyes.

Go figure.

[Lemur-X]

People say that this won't be the start of WW3.

I for one am a bit more skeptical.

Unrest abroad, that has 'The World's Watchdog's interest....leaves many areas wide open for flare ups.

Remember, nobody thought Germany would rise to the power that they did, so shortly after WW1.

But, as the world found out, all it takes is the will of the people. Which, when there is none, is easily formed by figureheads and individuals.

I love my Nation. America is my land. Where I grew up. It's what I know. Do I condone all of the overseas policies, which may have led up to this?

No.

Do I support my government at this point in time?

Yes.

They may be making a 'selfish' move in the eyes of many, but justice is necessary.

Other countries have sought justice for wrongs against them, with little to no resistance.

Yet, when America enters the picture, everyone's out to make a name for themselves.

[Darklighter]

one way to really fight "terrorism" would be to smack down laws on greedyass politicians/corporations and what they're allowed to do.... but since there's almost no regulation anymore in the u.s. and the 2 go hand in hand, it'll be a hard fight.... that's why everyone should check out the green party in the u.s., they got some really nice platforms, and what do you have to loose, i mean, it's supposed to be the people's choice who gets voted into office, but every year it becomes more and more of a joke.... Bush and Gore, just watch Rage against the Machine's "Testify" video.... but i must say, i was surprised that Bush didn't launch all kindsa shit at Afghanistan on Sept.12th, that's what i was seriously expecting (not supporting of course).... but then, they haven't really done much of anything, so there's no praise coming from me

[ October 05, 2001: Message edited by: Darklighter ]

[Steven Stahlberg]

Irfan, I agree with all you say.

Starfish... exactly what is it you're saying happened the 11th? Please clarify.

[Lorentz]

Irfan, you keep bashing isreal and yes if it wasn't for the US Isreal couldn't do what it does, it wouldnt exist the muslim nations around it would have obliterated it long ago. Second if Arrafat had wanted peace he would have taken the deal offered him in '98 or '99 wich gave them a big chunk of Isreal. But he didn't take the offer. Why? Well because the muslim nations will not be satisfied until the nation of Isreal is destroyed. The Isrealies bought that land why should they give it away. I believe it was the king of Syria, I may be wrong on the country, that said Isreal was a tumor on society that must be removed. As for how much bad America does in the world do you have any idea how much money and aid we send to other countries, the world would realize really fast how much we help if we were to suddenly cut off all foriegn aid.

Also the average American could care less what the rest of the world thinks they have hated us for a long time, jealousy at work, and frankly most Americans are pissed off at the continual America bashing, and the continual "well its a terrible thing but you know its your fault dont you." Thats like telling the jews it was their fault that Hitler tried to irradicate them.

Oh and btw as it looks now a palistinian state will not come into existance in the near future any support they had in America dried up with that footage of people celebrating in the streets. Bush even alluded to it in his speach how nations or governments that protect or sponsor terrorist will be considered the enemy. So after Bin laden the PLO is next.

Edit I should have said arab instead of muslim nations.

[ October 05, 2001: Message edited by: Lorentz ]

[starfish]

Steven,

I'll put together some thoughts.
will post tomorrow.

take care.

[sacrelicious]

Irfan, you are of course right. I just wanted to point out that the U.S. isn't 100% at fault with the situation in Iraq. Even though I'm defending the U.S. (because I live here, was born here, and love much about my country), I consider the Western capitalist profit-propoganda machine to be one of the most evil entities in human history.

[Impaler]

Afghanistan has never been successfully invaded in the entire course of history.

Peter the Great, Rome, Russia. They all marched onward up to those rocky hills, and turned back around.

The strongest empires in history conquered almost all, and they failed in Afghanistan.

GLASS PARKING LOT!! WOO!

[Steven Stahlberg]

Lorentz, paradoxically I agree both with some of the things you're saying, and with Irfan. This is the frustrating tug-of-war I find myself in (brought up to try to be as 'neutral' as possible).

I can only stare in disbelief as men and women on BOTH sides kill men, women - and children! on the other side. Both sides point to the other and say "Well they started it".
And no amount of peace talks and negotiating seems to help.

[Irfan Yunia]

I have said it once and i'll say it again. Nobody is trying to justify or make excuses for what has happened. The WTC is a tradegy for the whole world.

The people who died in the WTC are innocent. There is no denying this. And the people who killed them are evil fuckers. I say this as a Muslim.

But if we dont ask these fundamental questions now, we will be having the same discussion in five years time.

Yes the US is a great country. Its people are Great. I take nothing away from them.

All I am saying is, we need to look at the way in which the US government has behaved abroad. In particular the Middle East. Its realationship with Israel.

Israel would not be able to do what it does without U.S military, filnancial and political support.

It is dependent on U.S support.

If there is to be peace in the world, then there must be justice. Justice for all, not for some.

[starfish]

yo Lemur-X!

quote

Quote:

The people in command of those jets not only snuffed out innocent lies, but didn't even follow the law of the religion they were killing in.

good observation.
if you look a lil closer on what has been
done and what has been reported you will
find "lots" of really hilarious "errors"
in the script.