[Poprocksz]

The whole WTC "tragity" is a vey complicated
thing to me. Was it a "tragity"?
The same amount of people and children died
all around the world that very same day....
Just from starvation. But our people, thats
a worldwide "tragity".

What about the word "Terrorism"....
Terrorism can be harrasing some-one....
Terrorism can be a dog who bites you......
The definition of "Terrorism" is basicaly(and i could be a little off)
"Something that instils fear, such as an act or object"....pretty vauge....this one was for fun...hahahaha....back to seriousness.

Don't get me wrong....i think it was horrible.....and wrong. But why are we so
full of ourselves about it.

Example: Now the whole country is sooooo
Patriotic.....Flags everywhere, people saying
god bless america all the time...blah....
To me the whole patriotic thing is retarded
to me cuz, YOU are america....so everyone is running around
saying how much they love themselves....and how they are better than the whole world....
How AMERICAN to be so cocky.......

Another thing that bothers me is President Bush. Looks like Bush got exactaly what he
wanted. A minature war.

Now he can forget about Education, Social Security, and Medi-Care.....Now he can put
all that money into the military and defence.
So now Bush has his good ol' Christian
military power back....just like daddy.
And all of these brain-washed Americans are loving it..........have fun

[sacrelicious]

It wasn't a 'tragity'- it was a tragedy.

[Mezoic]

Well looks like you are the first here to show you are not over it, Poprocksz.

I guess some people have to bash on a touchy subject. Nice job.

[ October 03, 2001: Message edited by: Mezoic ]

[Steven Stahlberg]

Children starving to death all over the world is probably worse in one sense than the WTC bombing, but - a BIG BUT - these children are not (for the most part) being murdered on purpose by sick bastards to make a political point - and worst of all, in the name of GOD.

If you had been inside the WTC when it happened, and just barely made it out alive, or if you'd talked on a cell phone to a relative about to die on one of those planes, you would probably feel different about the flag waving. For most people it's not saying USA is better than everybody else, it's simply saying "Yo mama Osama", or something like that. What else can they do but give money, blood and wave the flag? We're all feeling helpless, scared and angry, if some people want to cope with it this way let them. I think it's touching to see, especially when non-Americans hold up the flag.

[Poprocksz]

It makes me proud to see that people would rather correct my spelling than say what they think......really....

And no, I'm not over it.....none of us should be.....I don't sit around and dwell on 24/7, i was just thinking about it last night...It will affect us artists too.....

and I'm not bashing on it......thank you

I am a American....and yes i too love my country.....But what I am not....is a Christian.....and I don't think it should be
part of this at all......

"you mama Osama" is starting a jihad(holy war) and we shouldn't do the same....

"United We Stand"....not, lets all go to church.......

I went and gave blood and KNOW that murder is different than starvation......

But I don't think the news has kept track
of how many people we've bombed or murdered
for no reason.....peace

[ October 03, 2001: Message edited by: Poprocksz ]

[Mezoic]

it's.. not.. worth.. the time!!!

[ October 03, 2001: Message edited by: Mezoic ]

[Steven Stahlberg]

By mentioning God in my previous post I did not in any way mean that I think I have God on my side, or that the US has him on their side, and that we're out to squash Islam, or anything like that. It's just so sick, twisted and totally perverted when somebody kills someone else in the name of a supreme being who supposedly represents the greatest love and mercy in the universe - someone they don't even KNOW, living on the other f0ck1ng side of the world. Words fail me.

[FireFry]

It's sick how those people can kill helpless women and children without a second though thinking that god has proclaimed this. The people who died at the wtc were everyday people just doing their job - they weren't soldiers like most were at the Pentagon.

I doubt the news would be keen to show the mistakes we (u.s.) made to harm other countries unless it got world attention, then they have no choice but to report on it. If it can be kept under wraps then why report it?

[Poprocksz]

All of you are right.....

This is not new in human history though....

The Crusades were 10 thousand times worse....
and there are countless acts of violence related to religion everyday.....

I just don't see how starting a "My Dad can beat up your Dad" war is gonna solve the problem........peace

[Steven Stahlberg]

The Crusades were not 10,000 times worse. Most of those who died were soldiers on both sides, and it took a lot of effort and time to kill, hacking your enemy to pieces one by one.

In fact no conventional war or natural disaster is comparable to this kind of terrorist action.

What we're seeing here is something new, that has never before been possible - a few scumbuckets killing 6000 people during one single morning of very little effort, armed only with a few facts, some boxcutters and plane tickets. We're only lucky they didn't hit the buildings further down, trapping twice as many or more in there. It could have been MUCH worse than it was...

...and what about the day when they finally get their dirty little hands on a few atomic warheads?

They must be stopped. You don't think so? You think they'll stop on their own? Their goal is nothing less than the total disintegration of the G7 countries, and the world domination of Islam. Guys obviously willing to die for that goal, I don't think they will stop until they reach it - or die.

We can't just sit tight and hope the problem will go away, like a woman being beaten by her husband, each time thinking it's the last time, each time it's repeated worse and worse.
"It must be our fault, because we accidentally bombed a hospital in -98, or killed a few civilians, or been too aggressive in our foreign policy, or helped Israel too much, or kept too high a profile with our capitalism, or... if we change our ways they'll stop killing us."

Look, it just won't work. Thousands of women are killed each year all over the world, by husbands they thought they could control by 'behaving like he wants me to'...
Not acting isn't an option, we must act. The question is how.

[Impaler]

It'd be a tragedy if we got 5,000 Sudanese starving kids, got them to stand in a big group, and dropped two skyscrapers on them.

Terrorism isn't a dog biting you..

Terrorism is a malicious and intended act meant to cause mass destruction, or more specifically, terror.

It's funny how being a zealot is one of the most popular jobs in the world, what with the jihads, or the revenge of Jesus, or the blaming of WTC on secularized America.

Peace is just a wishful product of cowardice and naivete. All of the best things, including the means to this forum, came out of war. The big barrier is this whole mortality clause.

*runs off to lab with God in a big gorilla cage*

[Poprocksz]

Maybe the Crusades wasn't as blatent of an act......But it was for the same reason....

I just don't believe we need a war......

but I will be the first to say that I don't know what other way to deal with it....

thanx for the words Steven....

[Mezoic]

You put an end to those specific individuals. Terrorist groups do not just originate in Afghanistan or other places in the middle east, they exist all over the world.

If the US does go to war, it will be because certain goverments are harboring terrorist groups, which labels them the same as the terrorists.

This isn't your typical form of war. It's a mass effort that will be executed by any country, it's been going on already. The WTC event was really just a big awakening.

[Poprocksz]

Now "Terrorism" is defined that way.....
but that is not the way it began...blah...

[kewl]

but america is not going after the nations supporting terrorism...in fact it has made one of them its ally.....

[Poprocksz]

Interesting......

[FatPenguin]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mezoic:
If the US does go to war, it will be because certain goverments are harboring terrorist groups, which labels them the same as the terrorists.

---

The US most definately has to be considered amoung those governments harbouring terrorists. The group of Cuban Americans in Miami have, amoung other things, launched an armed assault on Cuba, blown up a gas station there, poisoned cattle, and made 8 assasination attempts on Fidel Castro, all with the help of the CIA of course.

[Lunatique]

Steven- Man, I can always count on you to express the exact same thoughts and feelings I have about most things. Whenever I see you post, I feel like I don't need to because you've taken the words right out of my mouth.
Bravo.

No one can please everyone all the time. As many blunders as America have committed, they have given back to the world so much more. Do people ever think about how different our planet would be if America never helped other countries in need or contributed to the cause of freedom and peace? Sure, United states is not perfect, but I really believe they are on the side of the good guys, regardless of the occasional things they do that raises eyebrows.

This terrorist incident is not just damaging to the United States, it is damaging to our ideal of human decency. If people are feeling gleeful and smug about America's suffering(as I've seen some people do here in China), then they are advocating and supporting the bad guys. I'm not saying countries that "appear to be one of the good guys" don't employ devious and underhanded tactics in their foreign policy from time to time, or even use them on their own citizens--they ALL do. Politics is dirty and twisted by nature--that's usually what it takes to get things done YOUR way. There are no black and white, just shades of grey. United States is somewhere in the lighter shade of grey, and that deserves our support.

[Mezoic]

Fat: Quite true, I don't see that to be right, even with the United States struggle to fight communism.

I guess you're going to have you bad apples in any situation.

[jr]

You’ve trivialized this matter by placing quotes around the word tragedy. You’ve belittled this event with your inane babble about what tragedy means and terrorism. Tragedy also means catastrophe disaster and heartbreak. For you to come on here and talk about the cocky Americans, well, that just blows my mind. Steven refutes your comments and you start back tracking. Making such ridiculous comments. This isn’t about appraising what’s worst though out history. When I think about tragedy I think about the firemen who ran up the stairs into their deaths, I think about the people on the elevators who didn’t have a chance, I think about the friar who was killed by a falling body. I see nothing wrong with having pride in your country, a lot of us choose to immigrate to this country because it is better, better opportunities, better standard of living.
If you really want a debate, I suggest you plant your feet on some sort of platform that doesn’t move.
Bah! Enough of this.

[Poprocksz]

I'm only looking past the event with
eyes that see how bad the "cocky"
americans treat the problem and what terms we use.

When I was awoken that morning and saw it...I did not say......fuck america......i was saddened as much as you....hurt alot

All of a sudden Americans give such a shit about the country.....leaving their cell-phones, computers, and atm cards aside.

Put a flag on your house and pray to god.....
Then return to life and let ol' Bush sort it
out......no thank you.....

American pride is in me....not some flag....
American pride is in me...not some God.....

I don't want to argue.....I just want to
say I see everyones point of view here...

United We Stand-United We Fall

[Mezoic]

Anyone from any country should have the given right to show their support over a cause as great as this. And it doesn't mean they didn't care before, they are doing all they can do. And if it's religion, tuff shit, deal with it. I am not religious but if people feel they need to express words of god, then let them. This is a country based on freedom of expression.

And where are you pulling shit statements that Americans never gave a shit about their country before? I think you're letting political problems or your own neglect get in the way of that.

Well those are my thoughts, mwah.

[Poprocksz]

when was the last time you saw
everyone with and american flag on their house?.....even 4th of July and Memorial day don't come close......mwah

[Mezoic]

When is the last time you saw any country with their flag on the outside of their house or car? You seem to have some predefined thought that it is supposed to be that way all the time.

Like I have said before, it's too show support. You know, kind of like when you gave blood? Think of it that way, if it will helps you understand better.

Bah! No more for me.

[Poprocksz]

Thanks mezoic....I was so confused.....

I know it is about support....
How can you explain the fact that gift shops in New York are taking everything off the shelves that have the
World Trade Center on them....How comic books that have had the
buildings in them around the time of the event
were pulled of the shelves.......?
Movie Trailers that had the Building in it(Spider-Man) pulled from theatre.......
Microsoft pulled the Flight Simulator game they
made, because you can fly an airplane into a
building if you want....give me a break.....
Why are we fighting so hard about it......
If we are just going to erase it.....

[ October 04, 2001: Message edited by: Poprocksz ]

[travis travis]

the United States is more economy then country, so maybe we do look like hypocritical akward assholes when we try to be patriotic.

and yes the world is full of murder and mayhem, on large scales even, and we only mourn for what has touched our particular soil.

I thought the 'war' on terrorism sounded pretty seedy myself... but so far they haven't bombed anyone or sent troops to the line or anything. If they can really dispatch of terrorists covertly, nothing wrong with that. A real war against terrorism is of course idiocy though.

[Jabberwocky]

We're not the only country out to stop this... many countries are supporting us as well including Afghanistan.

And you giving blood... Did you do that regularly or did you do it because of the WTC? Anyways the blood that was donated on 911 wasn't given to the WTC... it takes a week to go through everything. The rest of the USA sent blood we all ready had to NY.

I'm not Christian I'm Jewish, but Saturday I went with my B/F to a thing that thanked the local Firefighters and Police Officers. They had sections from about 10 different religions including Jewish, Islamic, Christain, and someothers I can't remember this early in the morning.

The same thing happened when we got bombed during PH. Support for the country along with pride. I was always prode to be an American. I'm not starving or homeless. I can choose my career that I want. I don't have to go to school or work if I don't want to. It's just now I feel like someone's trying to take my freedom away (which someone is) and my father and aunt and uncle and cousins and grandfather and great grandfather have fought for our freedom. You have to understand that the generation now hasn't seen this. Hasn't had their freedom threaten. Hadn't been in a great war. The only war I remember is Desert Storm... and I was over 9 years ago.

I didn't vote for Bush, but one thing he can give good speeches! Apparently a lot of people voted for him and he's the one who's be voted in (freedom of choice!) and he's going to take care of it cause that what America put him in office for. You know if Bush just sat around and did nothing you'd be pist about him not doing anything...

We're not erasing it. For all we know we might rebuild... we might not... we might put the comic books back on shelves... we might keep them off... And most of the stuff is taken down for a temporary time for respect of those who had died.

AND I HAVE A FLAG ON MY CAR!!!! I put a flag out on 4 of July and Memorial Day.

quote:

---

The definition of "Terrorism" is basicaly(and i could be a little off)
"Something that instils fear, such as an act or object"

---

"instils fear"? Right they just made a whole country trigger happy!

Oh and Here it is "not so vauge"!

quote:

---

ter�ror�ism (tr-rzm)
n.

The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

---

and

quote

Quote:

terrorism n : the systematic use of violence as a means to intimidate or coerce societies or governments

I think those fit the WTC crash!

[Poprocksz]

I am going to say this one more time.....

Terrorism's definition has "changed".....
pick up a dictionary from 19th century....
That is what i am saying.....why would they need
to change a word..........and it was just a joke people......

Yeah i go once a week for the cookie.....(joke)
I've given blood at least 20 times in my 22
year life.....and it is cuz I do care.

Travis Travis: i agree

and it's good someone from out of country responded.....
Everytime I say "We had it coming"
people are like" No way, not USA, we are so
nice and helpful....Why would they want to
hurt us".......give me a break....peace

wait...wait....Jabberwocky....
Did you say Bush is a good speaker.....
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHHHAHHHHAAAAAHAHHAHHAHAHHHAHAAAAAHHAA
hahahHHAHAHAHahahAHHAHHAHAHaahHackcoughmhhmm

Thats a good one man.....

[ October 04, 2001: Message edited by: Poprocksz ]

[Irfan Yunia]

Guys, i think you are missing one very important point here, no war will ever be able to defeat terrorism. You cannot have justice without peace. You cannot have peace without justice.

The biggest problem in the Middle East is the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

If America wants to rid the world (or atleast its self) of terrorism then justice must be done to the Palestinians. This doeas not mean supplying the Israelis with more arms, so they can bomb refugee cams with F-16 jets.

This means giving the Palestinians a fair deal.

Its no suprise that the terrorists came from the Arab world. The Arabs in general and the Palestinians in particularly have been so Fucked by the US foriegn policy for so long.

Did you now that 200 Iraqi children die ever week because of US santions against them.

We all saw the pathetic pictues of the Palestinians dancing on the streets when the WTC was attacked. But consider this, if all you have known is misery, if you have lived all your life in a refugee camp, with no hope and no prosperity, your children have grown up with the same abandonment, members of your family have been killed fighting thier oppressors, outsiders taking your land, how would you have reacted to the news that your oppressors main sponsor has been attacked.

You get my point. It is America's policy towards the Middle East that has fucked so many people, that thay are willing to die and kill others to get thier point accross.

If the Palestinians were given a fair deal, then there would be no more suicide bombers, because people would just want to get on with thier own lives, just like you and me.

[Steven Stahlberg]

The West 'had it coming'?
Do you mean in the sense that bad air security was an accident waiting to happen? I agree.
Or do you mean that the stormclouds have been on the horizon a long time? I agree.
Or do you mean that this attack, and others, are a punishment for past crimes?

[ October 04, 2001: Message edited by: Steven Stahlberg ]