[Pat]

"It's really hard to understand what you mean by "attacking our allies instead of us.."

Point 1:
What part of that statement isn't clear? Our resolve to crush terrorism is fairly evident. Any terrorist attack in the US would only provoke a more fierce response from us. However, if in the short term, Bin Laden was interested in motiviating us to stop attacking him, he could ply his trade on our allies. If innocent people were to start dying across Europe, India, Japan, et al, it would create enormous political pressure for us to stop. During Desert Storm, a few scud missles landing on Israel almost derailed our international coalition; a fact I'm certain is not lost on Bin Laden.

Point 2:
We are bombing terrorists. The US does not see any significant difference between terrorists or the governmants which harbor them.

Point 3:
I know Jihad is not a verb. That's why it's in quotes.

-Pat

[ October 07, 2001: Message edited by: Pat ]

[Mezoic]

Man, ever wondered how fucking sorry it is to attack our country like this in the form of terrorism? I mean, if want to crush the US attack our country like we attack you, with a military not these coward acts.

Just letting off some steam..

[ October 07, 2001: Message edited by: Mezoic ]

[Lemur-X]

One thing that truly mystified me....

The men that were responsible for the 9-11 acts did so in the name of their religion.

Yet, their religion says, quite clearly, that suicide = hell.

Dying in a sin does not make them a martyr.

--Steve

[Impaler]

Actually, I'd be willing to bet that more people have died (by leaps and bounds) in the name of, or because of, a deity than for any other causes, like money or land or other trivial things..

Life is not without it's sense of overwhelming irony..

[ October 07, 2001: Message edited by: Impaler ]

[userbusi]

If I am not mistaken, plague, famine, accidents, and age have individually killed more human beings than all physical conflict between humans. Granted the lines blur when conflict creates the previous four, but those overlaps account for only a fraction of total deaths.

edit: fixed the q - g

[ October 07, 2001: Message edited by: userbusi ]

[Jock McxSporran]

Impaler: Amen to that.

Userbusi: I didnt realise plaque could be fatal. I guess I will be more careful about brushing my teeth now then :P

[ October 07, 2001: Message edited by: Jock McxSporran ]

[travis travis]

It's wacky shit. We're going after the Taliban, I guess. We're also covering their country with pro-US propoganda leaflets at the same time. I don't really know how to feel about those things, that's just what's going on.

[FatPenguin]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mezoic:
Man, ever wondered how fucking sorry it is to attack our country like this in the form of terrorism? I mean, if want to crush the US attack our country like we attack you, with a military not these coward acts.

Just letting off some steam..

[ October 07, 2001: Message edited by: Mezoic ]

---

If there's one thing about this whole mess that i don't understand, it's that every US official insists on refering to the terrorists as 'cowards'. I'm not defending the terrorists or anything.. you can call them evil, or stupid or whatever and i'd agree, but there is no way 'cowardly' is an appropriate adjective. Please explain!

[Frosted Flame]

Kandahar is actually where the "physical headquarters" of the Taliban is located, not Kabul.

Kabul is the capital, though.

[Lemur-X]

Cowardly is giving no warning, and making sure there's no chance you'll have to answer for your crimes.

[Steven Stahlberg]

quote

Quote:

Actually, I'd be willing to bet that more people have died (by leaps and bounds) in the name of, or because of, a deity than for any other causes, like money or land or other trivial things..

Save your money and don't take that bet. It's just a popular myth.
How does this myth survive, even though it's so obviously wrong? It makes for a pretty cool irony, as you mention... and we do love irony.

The 8 or 9 crusades are often brought up as an example.
Granted many died due to them... several tens of thousands. Maybe even hundreds of thousands. (I don't know the exact number, nobody does, but one of the first crusades was estimated to consist of about 30,000 on the european side, and they did not all die, gives us a ballpark idea.)

Compare that to the first and second world war. (WW1: over 16 million dead, 7 million maimed for life. WW2 much more.)
Compare it to the American, French and Russian revolutions. Compare it to the wars waged by the Persian Empire, the Roman Empire, by Alexander, by Napoleon, by all the Chinese Emperors, by Djengis Khan, compare it to the Civil War, to the Korean and Vietnam Wars, to Mao's Great Leap (which allegedly killed tens of millions). And of course the Vikings, Africa, South America... etc etc, hundreds and thousands of wars all through human history, that had nothing to do with deities, and everything to do with ambition, greed, preemptive strikes, dictators and rebellions...

Let's stop blaming religion for crap that must be blamed on human nature.
Why doesn't anyone ever mention the good religion has done - like bringing Arab science and math to the west, for instance. Without the concept of zero, no computers. We can all thank Islam for being digital artists today.

[ October 07, 2001: Message edited by: Steven Stahlberg ]

[Pat]

I'm watching the news right now and it looks like we're bombing terrorists. I wonder if this means they're going to "jihad" us.

It occurs to me we're fairly alert to the threat of domestic terrorism now. I wonder if the terrorists will attack our allies instead of us, in attempt to pressure us to stop.

-Pat

[Impaler]

Um.

We're not bombing terrorists. We're bombing Kabul, Afghanistan. Kabul is the capital, and the physical headquarters of the Taliban, an extreme radical group of Muslims who siezed control of Afghanistan a few years ago.

"Jihad" us? In a sense, Osama bin Laden has been spreading propaganda that the Christians (us) and the Jews (Israelis) are against all members of Islam, thus making it a holy war. Jihad really isn't a verb. There are 6 other contexts that it is used in the Quran that don't specifically call for war. They're more used for metaphors for how sin is always attacking the righteous from all sides, and the Jihad is Allah's fight against it.

It's really hard to understand what you mean by "attacking our allies instead of us"..

[LeChuck]

If they attack our allies then they are going to get screwed even worse then they already are.

[Irfan Yunia]

The immeadiate terrorist threat will be directed towards Muslim countries taking part in the coalition. Countries like Pakistan, where about 30% of the population is of the same ethnic mix as the Taliban. These people have always had a greater relationship with Afghanistan than the rest of Pakistan.

There have been numerous terrorist attacks in Pakistan over the past 20 years, due to Pakistans' involvement in Afghanistan.

But what happens next in the War against terrorism. Do we go bomb Iraq, Sudan, Iran etc. Or will we sit down and try to resolve the main causes of terrorism.

Whats happens to Afghanistan after the U.S has met its objective. Will we abandon Afghanistan as we did after the Soviet Union pulled out, and let another Afghan War-Lord take power and terrorise the people, or will we do the decent thing and help the Afghan people re-build thier country.

I am pleased to see that some one has reminded us all that contrary to popular belief, Islam is not a demonic religion practiced by fanatics, but has a long tradition of tollerance and rich scientific and artistic history.

[Darklighter]

"hundreds and thousands of wars all through human history, that had nothing to do with deities, and everything to do with ambition, greed, preemptive strikes, dictators and rebellions..."

seriously, even the so-called religious wars had one of the above agendas as its main reason.... "ban all religions and there will be world peace" is bullshit, that's just taking the easiest answer without having to actually look at the problem.... banning black trenchcoats didn't stop school shootings now, did it?

[FatPenguin]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lemur-X:
Cowardly is giving no warning, and making sure there's no chance you'll have to answer for your crimes.

---

That's so stupid though. How about this:

Bravery is giving up your own life for what you believe in.

[userbusi]

No one ever said that two opposites such as "cowardness" and "bravery" were mutually exclusive, even when describing the same act. The world is not so simple, and instead has a plethora of contexts. Both statements can be equally right. Its just a matter of "how" they are right.

[Lemur-X]

Exactly userbusi.

On one hand, they gave their life for what they believed in.

On the other hand, they acted upon innocents, without warning, and most likely with very little opposition.

--Steve