[Vesuvius]

this is meant as a thread for me to ask whomever was involved in the removal of a certain thread a question, however it can also be a place to discuss what future rules on modesty can be at sijun

this evening, in Gallery/Finished Works, there was a thread in which the 'artwork' was a picture derived from an explicit porn photo with full frontal female nudity and sexual interaction. I wanted to ask the moderator why they erased (if they did) this thread rather than edit and lock it, because in merely erasing no one is taught the rules.

my opinion on the subject was that non-explicit sexual content (genitalia are covered), full frontal non sexual or partial non sexual are fine (although by non sexual I mean non explicit sexual, as in no masturbating or close ups of gaping orifices, but pin ups or non sexual nudes are fine). I felt however that what was posted by the person who made this thread (who was not cybertoker) was crossing a line that cybertoker has been toeing but not exactly crossing recently. toker has been putting up some work which, although unoriginal (as it is derived from pornographic photos) is softcore and more pin-up style, so although I find the merit of the work questionable, I have no issue with it really, but the practice of copying photos and the practice of posting sexual fantasy art on these boards is something which needs discussion, so I'd like to hear opinions.

[Poprocksz]

just live with it.....sorry

[ October 03, 2001: Message edited by: Poprocksz ]

[Freddio]

any blatant pornography with no artistic quality or intention will be removed.

I will take your thoughts into consideration.

-Freddio

[cybertoker2001]

Listen, if you don't like my art then don't look at it. I don't know where you live, but I live in America and I have a right to paint what I want and you have the right not to look at it if you are so inclined.

You should back off me pal.
If you had something to say about me or my art you should have brought it to ME personally.(My e-mail is in my profile) By the way, as you stated above.....that post was not mine nore did it contain my artwork.

Also, I do other things besides pin-ups or photo-realistic work. Go to my galleries and see what my art is all about before you form an oppinion about me or my art.

That's all I have to say on the matter.
I would however like to know what other folks think about this topic.

CT2001

[Jezebel]

I'm not sure what the picture in question was, but I think if it was indeed pornographic and not just slightly erotic that it's fair to remove it. This is because there are a lot of people who visit sijun that are <17/18 years old and there are also several folks that visit from work and could get in trouble if caught viewing such material.

But I still think you're a good artist cyber. It's just that some material is ok to show and some isn't. I believe that's understandable :>

But it's also not my forum. Whatever the rules are, they need to be adhered to... and if dhab allows pornographic art then so be it.

[FireFry]

Nudity is a common thing with art, but there is a fine line between nudity and pornography.

Anything of a sexual nature; lesbians going at it (whom are fully/half naked), sex, sexual insinuating poses, etc. aren't appropriate. The thread in question would be an example of this. This isn't a porno portal, but a place for artists to share artwork and gain feedback from eachother.

I'm ok with nude artwork as long as it's clean.

These opinions are my own and nothing more....

[Vesuvius]

I don't have a problem with you posting what you do cyber, I thought what you posted was on the edge of allowable in my opinion though. I think Poprocksz was the author of the thread in question, and if not I know he posted in it, unfortunatley if he didn't author it then I'm sorry but I have no way of checking. I didn't mean to anger you so much, as I don't have a major issue of any sort with what you have done, but what you did sort of paved the way for what was posted, in that your artwork came directly from pornographic photography (softcore) and this took it in a more explicit direction. I stand by my feeling that you learn more and have more to contribute if you find your own subject matter rather than copying that from photos, and I also stand by the feeling that pornography of the sort I mentioned really is off topic here. I am sorry if you feel I wrongly grouped you, and I'm sorry if I offended you, as I do feel you are quite talented, and I have seen your other work on nickmarks's BBS.

[edited to add]
pal- buddy- chum- this forum isn't 'america' and 'america' has rules as to who can view such art that are not enforced on this forum, children are allowed on this forum and this forum is privatly owned (though not by me so I am in no way affiliating myself with the opinions of the ones who decide these things) I am merely saying that the content that you can make and display in your personally owned gallery where you can regulate who enters and what they can do there is different from what you post on an all ages public board. and curb the attitude, I didn't go after you or the quality of your work personally, just the style of what was going on. I posted your name because your work was similar in inspiration and because the name of the perp which is known to the mod who removed it is not known to me as I didn't bother to note it, also because, as much as it may pain you to hear it, seeing a painted version of a picture of Veronika Zeminova or another porn star, even done freehand, is still just attempting to copy over blow for blow a porn picture that you picked up on the web, something which may require skill to do as well as you do, but which does not require vision inspiration or creativity.

[ October 03, 2001: Message edited by: Vesuvius ]

[Freddio]

I take your point cybertoker2001.

In future if you are to post work of this nature, You need to justify why you are creating such an image. So we can see the differentiation between pornography and your art.

[cybertoker2001]

I agree you you fully Jezebel.
Rules are rules, but I don't paint chicks masturbating or anything even remotely close to that. Sometimes I show nudity and the last time I checked it was still cool to show nude images at this board.
I don't want to see porn at this board either, but nudity is just another beautiful thing for an artist to render. Look at Michelangelo's statue of David. If that's not art I don't know what is. :/

Ok, I have nothig else to say on this issue.

Take it easy everyone,
CT2001

[edible snowman]

instead of deleting threads you could leave them closed as an example. at least so we know what is going on. i have no problem with what cybertoker had, i dont think vesuvius is saying he did either(although i dont speak for him). as long as you include something in the topic that warns of nudity, which he did.

[cybertoker2001]

The thread in question was posted by UBIK.
I DID NOT POST THE THREAD IN QUESTION.
The only reason I'm even in this conversation is because my name was mentioned in this post by Vesuvius.
That's all.

I don't want any more confusion on this matter.
I DID NOT POST THE THREAD THAT WAS DELETED.
THE THREAD IN QUESTION WAS NOT MINE.

Ok?

ok.

Take it easy,
CT2001

(Sheesh....I feel like freakin' Michael Jackson over here.)

[A.Buttle]

I did not touch that little boy.

I did NOT touch that little boy. . .

I just payed his family off with a quarter of a million dollars.

[jr]

i usually don't post in these threads but here goes.

we all know what porn looks like, and we can all tell the difference. any one who says, what's porn for you may not be porn for me, is pretending to be clever. and to respond to these sorts of threads with insults will help , if you need to copy a pornographic picture to move you to make art, well, maybe you should rethink your business.

anywho, that's neither here nor there.
i guess this is a signature sijun post. this marks the official rerelease of the sijun forums.

[edible snowman]

in case you were talking to me for some reason, i know it wasn't the you who posted the thread. i was talking about the most recent thing you put up here, which seemed like it was also part of the discussion. as long as people mention the fact that the picture contains nudity in the topic of their post, its fine with me.

[Giant Hamster]

I can't believe it...I actually used to come here a year or so ago. Wow.
This place sucks.

Anywyays, my opinions on sex...
Call me corrupt, call me perverted, but: I feel that hardcore anal ass ramming, beastiality, and bukkake are all perfectly fine for children aslong as it's explained. Something that is NOT ok for children is telling them that sex is wrong, that their bodies are dirty, that they shouldn't think about stuff like that...because that's how you get fucked up people who kill eachother and can't survive in everyday life.

Expose your kids to everything. it's healthy for them to know everything around them. If they ask, "mommy, why is that naked man behind that other naked man?", tell them, "They're homosexuals having sex." and just leave it at that for now. They'll figure it out further later. Sheltering is not good.

So I say:

Post all the sexual art and blatant porn you want. Have a ball(or an orgy). Enjoy life.

[jr]

hahahahaha, the 1960's called, they want you back!

[Giant Hamster]

I would actually have to be from the 1960s for that statment to work. I'm 17.

[Enayla]

This is exactly why I left the moderating post back before Sijun died last time.

People complain that the forum isn’t moderated enough - and then when it IS moderated, they complain as well.

There’s no way to do the right thing in a forum where people expect the moderators to obey everything they say. That’s not really the deal - the mods are chosen because Dhabih trusts them to do the right thing... and if we disagree with that, we can just go to a different forum. Some kind of moderation is needed and it’s not really up to every single separate individual to pick what the rules should be.

There are far too many members here for that to be even remotely possible. Some people will always BE dissatisfied. There’s no way to make rules that’ll appeal to everyone.

Freddio removed a subject. So let’s go ahead and assume that he did so because, as a moderator, he found it inappropriate - and because he found it inappropriate, he had all the right in the world to take it away. End of story.

[Frost]

Cybertoker, or whoever else:

"Listen, if you don't like my art then don't look at it."

This line of thought is where most problems arise. The way I see it, it's just valueless and sleezy porn images, and there's no worth showing that crap off here(crap = the image type, and not your 'work' per se).

If you're serious about developing your skills, then try painting something else than things that give you a hard on, cause frankly, most of us older people just don't give a damn. Most of us here are a little more serious than those 14 yr old kids on the net who find photoshop paintovers of naked chicks cool. We're a little more experienced and involved.

This is a long-time established forum with many people. You just can't come in here and say "you're all wrong, and if you don't like my stuff, piss off". How about changing your method and subjects or stopping posting if your not appreciated here?

Anyway, I agree with Enayla. It's not easy pleasing people and sharing the same values over 2-generations worth of artists on a common ground.

Best of luck to you Cybertoker. I didn't mean to slap you around, but I'd just try changing my habits...


Frost
Elistist Bastards Association

[ October 05, 2001: Message edited by: Frost ]

[jr]

word!
frost you took the words right out of my mind. btw, i'm 21, what generation do i belong in?

[cybertoker2001]

Frost~
Get a clue buddy, this thread isn't even about ME or my POSTS.
So please refrain from bringing me or my art up in this conversation again.

Thank you.

GOOD DAY SIR!
CT2001

[cybertoker2001]

Listen guys, I have no idea why I was even mentioned in this post from the begining. The only basis for my name even being in this thread is probley due to the fact that I paint pin-ups sometimes. But, if that's the case how come Fallen's name wasn't mentioned?

If anyone is interested in finding out who I am and what I'm all about, go to my web site.-
www.LiquidWerx.com
I'm a grown man (24), not a child here to start sh!t with anyone. I own my own business, I own my own house, I own my own car and yes I paint my own paintings. If anyone has a question about the subject matter or athenticity of my paintings, please go to my site. I have tutorials there with step by step images of how I paint. And in my galleries you'll find a lot more than just pin-ups. I started out as a comic book illustator.

I'm sorry for bringing this up again, but I'm sick of being harassed about my work when this post was never about me in the first place and no one here seems to really know about me.

I'm done with this conversation. It's become very tiresome.

Take it easy,
CT2001