[J. Der]

Craig, I would officially like to have your babies. Congratulations.

[Snake Grunger]

Nice stuff spooge! When I saw the final composite, my eye twinked for a few seconds, until I read you didn't do it. I saw what you did, and wondered how it could have turned into what it did.

On another note, I'd like to ask if you ever received what I had sent you?

Or, if it was bothersome, I'll never make use of that address ever again.

Francis.

[Scott Robertson]

Nice work as always Craig. Thanks for sharing.

[Badbreath Warrior]

*Bump to the top* The magazine spread is my favourite, the detail is incredible. Thanks for sharing you're work. I don't like what they did with it, best not to be reasoned in Ad logic, if you value you're sanity.

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: Badbreath Warrior ]

[zeitzeuge]

sorrry for this stupid comment but..

OH MY FUCKING GOD.

[FrustratedARTist]

You know if there was a way to have sex with paintings I would definantly chose one of yours to have it with...

gotaluvit
frustrated

edit[a little to obscene]edit

[ September 03, 2002: Message edited by: FrustratedARTist ]

[Lunatique]

Jesus, I go away for a week, and I come back to Dhabih posting and Craig posting, and sijun having a revival party.

Craig, if I were a chick, I'd stalk you and force you to impregnate me.

[Markus]

Thanks for showing the process, Craig. I figured you occasionally had to deal with the same client stuff some of the rest of us do. It's a good example all the way around; very worthwhile.

[tldenmark]

Spooge: you've truly transcended the medium! This reminds me very much of the excellent work Tiemens did for Attack of the Clones, with the flying ships on Geonosis.

I shook my head when I saw how they mangled the perspective in the composite. The chopper looks like it's sinking.

Did they paint in over the chopper for the background, or did you have the chopper and background on seperate layers?

[Zorglub]

Illustrations like these are the reason I got involved in the digital painting community. Thanks for keeping me here.

[Germ01]

Wapow! Thanks for sharing and keeping the inspiration for all of us to absorb! When they gave you the project did they give you different kinds photos to work from or did you have to do your own research in regard to the kind of angles you wanted to explore? Your understanding of how things work and look are inspiring! Thanks again!

[Christian Lang]

Amazing. I suppose I gonna do nothing for the next 20 years but trying to reach you quality... and probaly fail. Your artwork is unbelievable.
A friend just showed me a making of from the Final Fantasy-DVD. I know that you worked on that one, but I wasn�t sure if It�s u in the video.

[Gimbal8]

hot...damn.

I rented the game because the cover was cool looking (and I had the Blockbuster Game-pass thingy so it didn't cost me anything anyway).

Goes to show what a damn good cover can do for a game. Got my attention. To bad the had to have all the firebomb changes. I liked the previous version. Thanks for showing it to us.

[spooge demon]

Thanks for the thoughts and sympathies everyone. I will post another one soon that was way more heinous than this one. I don't get it, they hire me, but then when I do what they hired me for they freak out. I think people are scared about their jobs if they do anything different. But even the reasoning behind the changes makes no sense on any level. It is a gut reaction, a spasm to really just make it look like everything else on the shelf.

Actually I was thinking about the incoming comments of :must separate: when I had the copter in front of the oil smoke. AS in the sketch, I wanted to have it coming out of the smoke at high speed, like a shark coming out of some kelp. But it is needed to separate, which it did, the flat color could be lightened easily. But as I remember, the real objection was it made the game look too tactical, not enough blowing things up.

ok, done

Sukhoi, The copter was given to me as a med poly model. I don't know who designed it, but it looks like a real machine with some awful canopy grafted onto it. It was a challenge to make it look OK.

Thanks Novacaptain, bombs away...

Gecko- I think it looks a little like your work through there.

Chao chin- It is a tiny 3-d and then painted in PS. I am 38. Jeez..

Jabo- The smoke is done with a variety of custom brushes. PS7 is pretty good for this kinda stuff

NeFF- thanks! keep at it.

Eviltoylet- This was done about a year ago, and I know it is sick to say, but it really put in my mind what stuff like that looks like. I was thinking that they might change focus a little, but no.

el scoono- It is not so much that I was pulled, but they had me stop work on the second piece because they had the idea of the composite. They felt that no one would know that the second illustration was a helicopter. Bizarre.

Frost, thanks!

Sumaleth-Really? John Berkey? Hmmm never entered my mind but ya, maybe. Not as good

Akolyte- thanks!

Magic pen- thanks! I think the movie crap gives me a sexy shiver to the game folks. Some of the art direction I receive starts like " remember in blade runner, when that..."

Bishop six- I am honored to be on your desktop!

adam_soul--Thanks!

iandredd- heaven forbid! Shiftless artists always doing something irritating...

Ed- Keep on after them The third is a ways out. I am planning on doing some of the lighting design on #3. That will be fun!

TJ Verhagen- thanks!

Flexible Elf- Hey! you post more! The lost work doesn't bother me much. I do think that if the mag spread had been finished it could have been a nice gatefold. That Obi wan thing, yes they took my illo of Obi fighting nobody in he middle of the desert and did the green thing to it. Work for hire, baby.

hoodz- sell those WCs, thanks//

jr- thanks!

Malachi- It is just frustrating, you work hard to do something a little different, and if the ideas presented were better, cool, time to learn. But to make it more predictable? Isn't product differentiation a good thing? I should have offer to do the composite for free. At least the color balance would have been ballpark.

Go- yes! use the thumbnails!

Ian Jones- You can do it, just be really methodical about it, think about what is known or what you can find out about what you are painting. Think of it like Bingo, try to extrapolate from what you know to be true.

Max Kulich- Cool, write to the manufacturers!

Chuckles- thanks!

Enayla- thanks!

synj- that's it! This is what the AD were trying to get me to do. I would love to see this on a box cover. Really. It would stand out on the shelf for sure. BTW, I want to see more from mister garden tools.

firefreak

J.Der- thanks, but position already filled

Snake Grunger- It decomposed!

I will get back to you on the other stuff.

Scott- your welcome..

zeitzeuge- uh, thanks!

badbreath warrior- I wonder if their is a school for marketing logic?

Frustratedartist- Hmm. you know, I have always thought to myself that I am after a sensual experience with my stuff. Glad you kinda got that.

Lunatique- thanks!

Markus-Wait till I post a swat urban justice cover. I went on for months. I am not sure why I am having more problems recently. Either I am deviating from what I advertise or the pressures of commerce have made game folks really conservative. Maybe both.

tldenmark- I have not seen erics work for clones yet, I will have to catch up. The copter was on a second layer, but I had to touch it up where I had not painted it.

Zorglub- your welcome!

Germ01 - they sent a model of the copter and I played around with it. They did send a pencil sketch that all agreed should be abandoned.

Christian Lang- I have not seen that DVD- I rented it and it does not play on my computer. But I am sure that is Christian Scherer on there, another MP at Square.

Gimbal8 that is what we like to hear...

[NOXizMAD]

Damn... fantastik work man, thanx alot for sharing... (i just went straight to the speed painting section these dayz, and missed ur topic like the dumb jerk that i am...)
How long do u spend on this kind of artworks? Don't you ever get lost or stuck while performing the rendering? (i guess not, but i got that recursive problem of killing every little few dynamics or interesting shapes of the first attempt while rendreing, and still dunno how to deal with it)

Gorgeous work once again...
keep us inspired

your #1 fan

[Frost]

"Obi fighting nobody in he middle of the desert" -- that just made me laugh. =] Yet, it's a nice piece.

[Leo]

Thanks spooge! Always been impressed by your works.

-leo

[cptoonz]

Wonderful work, Mr. Demon. You know, I can't believe with all the work you did, and the wonderful pieces you completed (even the one with "more firebombs", et cetera) they took your work and came up with that piece of shit for a final spread. Good fucking grief...at least you got paid. How they could take your art and cut paste that tripe together is a mystery to my wee little mind...sorry to vent, please don't misunderstand me...anyway, great work as usual...I really like the gunship design: graceful and lethal in one

[Ian Jones]

Thx Spooge, great advice. I'll try to think along those lines in the future.

[Ian Jones]

Thx Spooge, great advice. I'll try to think along those lines in the future.

[ceenda]

Awesome work spooge!

Bah, I feel like screaming at the publishers "Just leave the friggin' pics alone!!! They're fine!". But alas, it seems that the 'work-experience' boy always gets the final say when it comes to the packaging...

[YVerloc]

Craig,

You've already done a huge reply to this thread, so I don't know if you'll get around to adding more replies. But I do have some comments I'd really love to hear your thoughts on.

I saw this ad in a game magazine the other day, before you posted this thread. At the time, I remember thinking that it was a fairly decent Craig Mullins rip-off done by someone with no taste. There were pockets of masterful, deft and loose rendering that only you could have pulled off. But the whole ad looked like a dog's breakfast. Of course now that you've posted the thread, the explanation is clear; nonetheless it's disappointing that your work got mangled so badly.

So let me be the first to ask a question that I think many others may also be asking themselves. Craig, you're a super talented guy who's got a world famous reputation. Surely you have enough clout by now to maintain the artistic integrity of your own work? If not, then I shudder tho think what kind of supernatural artistic powers would be required to gain enough leverage to keep hack art directors from bollixing one's visual ideas.

Let me widen the scope of the discussion a bit if I may. There are many super skilled working illustrators on this board. As a long time lurker her, I've sometimes noticed an aura of false modesty that surrounds the for hire work that simetimes gets posted here. I hear a lot of "well the client liked purple and green, so..." and "they didn't like the direction I was going so I got yanked..." or whatever. Among those reading this are some of the worlds most talented imaginative artists. Among you are those who have the most well honed visual imaginations ever, and the most well developed technical abilities for doing imaginitive artwork. So let me throw down the gauntlet and ask you all: do you really intend to look back on the body of work you leave behind you and caveat everything with the excuses that come part and parcel with developing other people's concepts and following other people's direction? Why is it that among all the other artforms, the imaginative artist, the artist who can create images out of ideas, receives so little respect and is able to maintain so little artistic integrity? I ask you all, if someone of Craig's skill gets trampled on like this, what hope is there for the rest of us?

Brothers and sisters, rise up!

[Lunatique]

I want to see what Craig has to say about this too.

In the meantime, this is my personal thoughts on the matter:

The people in charge don't always believe artists are good marketing minds. They always feel that artistitc talent does not equal clever advertising flair. To most, artists are just human machines to turn their ideas into a tangible image, not someone to be counted on to sell their multi-million products. They pride in themselves that they have studied marketing, psychology, media/communications..etc, and they know how to sell the product better than any artist ever could.

[-DsD-GiNo-]

I was looking at the pics.. and I thought who is this.. a new talent?
haha When I looked at th eprofile it was craig.. yeah who else.
Damn you are the best craig!!

[Joachim]

I think that if you are professional, you have to accept the fact that the people that paid you can use the picture the way they like. Even though it can be really irritating some times. Usually those that changes the work you deliver are doing it for some stupid marketing reason ( which I probably never will understand, but it might be true ?)
Anyway, I guess we all have to learn to live with it, IMO if you can't then become a non commersial artist. That's why I paint "more" personal pictures when I have jobs that offers less of my own creativity and taste.
Aatleast that's how I feel that things work.

ANyway, great stuff craig, nice to see the development, and nice to see other artists struggle to capture what the client think they want and therefor have to change it..... I too like the first version of the chopper picture best, beut they are still very nice. Nice to see the sketches too !

[ September 07, 2002: Message edited by: Joachim ]

[Simon K�hling]

i'm interested in spooge's opinion as well

but i wonder if it would be a good idea to somehow concentrate all those great talents in one team - wouldn't it be a great success trying to build a team of illustrators, marketing freaks and so that respect each others work and work TOGETHER on a project they are hired for? this way i think you could produce art that fits your own creative thoughts while fullfilling the client's hopes to get a product wich is completely structured in details but also work for advertising matters

another feature: firms/studios/agencies can appear more "professional" than a freelance artist may do

what do you think? it was just an idea i got while reading your comments

sim

[Vesuvius]

"the only thing left standing is freedom"?!?!?!

that's quite possibly the worst ad line I've ever heard. err... read.

[Ed Lee]

The question raised by YVerloc has always plagued illustrators. I don't mean to speak for Craig but even greats like Frazetta whom I met in person back in '95 have had his share of butchery. Believe me, his stuff got butchered for 50 years+. And he's a single inspiration to many younger illustrators. And yet, not much in terms of respect for his work by art directors.

Once, I set him up with Wizards of the Coast, one of the few companies that respect fantasy and sci-fi artists. Yet, they went into one of his painting and touch-up this one girl in photoshop, adding a deer-hide loin clothe to cover her butt crack.

This is amusing, cuz his paintings of girls are tasteful..but to cover? Because it's offensive to some?

You know, as an illustrator who illustrates for money shouldn't be alarmed once their work leaves their hand. I got my stuff butchered too but one should use their discretion in what can be done to their work once it goes to an art director. Remember, the illustration serves it's purpose as only part of a whole. The ad wasn't selling Craig's painting but the game. If the art director changes it...well, u can't argue since they're the client, and they've hired you and are paying you. Like Craig said in reply..he got paid for it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Simon K�hling:


but i wonder if it would be a good idea to somehow concentrate all those great talents in one team - wouldn't it be a great success trying to build a team of illustrators, marketing freaks and so that respect each others work and work TOGETHER on a project they are hired for? this way i think you could produce art that fits your own creative thoughts while fullfilling the client's hopes to get a product wich is completely structured in details but also work for advertising matters

---

This would be great utopia for artists and wish it myself. But, you know...artists are basically a selfish lot and will even go great length to backstab someone to get ahead. When it comes to commerce peeps turn really hostile. It happened to me at Blur. Unless we have a communist society I don't see this happening.

Another thing, Frazetta still has the original of that painting, and I've seen it and no loin clothe.

Ed--

www.edleeart.com

[ September 07, 2002: Message edited by: Ed Lee ]

[V Shane]

"the only thing left standing is freedom"?!?!?!

Great work, but this obviously doesn't mean freedom of art expression.

[spooge demon]

Um, what lunatique, Joachim and Ed "da man" Lee said. Cannot say it better.

To go a little further, I have always said that there is no such thing as an objective standard in art. If you define your standards of value narrowly enough, OK, but that gets away from why art exists in the first place.

So to answer the question of what is going to sell a game better, there is no easy way you can tell. Marketing gurus who do well designed, large studies might have my attention more than a goateed art director. At least there is attempt to answer the question rationally.

So ideally, you can find out what will sell a game, ask 10,000 people in a mall somewhere. But are you sure you would like the answer? I think a lot of people confuse what they like with what is "good." Look at the replies to the helicopter image. Some like the fireball better! They are not wrong.

George Lucas said once that if you know what a 12 year old girl wants, you will rule the world. So does art direction and marketing target thus make for bad art? Of course it does! We all know that barbarians with swords and sexbots with guns are much more aesthetic than Hello Kitty...

So you see what I mean. Art is an artificial construct and what is good is exactly what you say is good, suspiciously like reality.

But when I am art directed and I don't like the direction, it just tells me that 1) the AD is incompetent, or, 2) they know exactly what they are doing and it is I who chafes at the least common denominator (big boobs and explosions). But what perked my eye about the composite of the helicopter thing was, after trying my best to adopt, if only for a moment, the assumptions of a marketing chimp, the helicopter looks like it is exploding! So I guess I would assume in this case that #1 is closer to the truth.

---

If you look through Frazetta's books you can see what was commissioned and what he was "into." It is difficult to have a bunch of work that feels right and a client comes a long and says "Mr. Frazetta, we really love that bloody barbarian, but could he be holding the shampoo bottle a litter higher and could he be smiling more? And the pile of bodies just has to go, and one more thing, the girls in the steno pool say blue is a much better color than bilious green..." Mr. Frazetta does his best and then wonders why it looks... bad. But the client more often than not loves it!