[Jabberwocky]

OKay we have basic idea of rules for the art forums, but what about the Random Musing Forums? Impaler said something about Random Musing shouldn't be moderated too aggressively. He's right, but a lot of the resent problems seem to be in these forums. People complain about people post here more than the Art forums. If we're going to put rules on the art forum we need some for in here as well. I think we are on the right path here. For once we are actually working together again!

[-Gux-]

Those are great suggestions Red Leader. I just hope that people "get it". I mean they must. That will definetly make things better.
We have the new sections, now it's just nailing down conduct rules and policy.

[Red Leader]

Hmmm.I hear what you're saying Jabberwoky, but I don't know if there should be much moderation here in RM. People really do need a place to speak their minds freely. If we didn't have this freedom, the problems we do have here on Sijun might not be so evident, no? I say moderate the art boards and let people be free here. +-200 posts to Faust's thread are what got me so riled up in the first place, after all.

The recent outcry in the RM forum seem to really root themselves in 2 things:
1) Faust's defending a friend against the policies of Lumental (that's got it's own thread, so please, no comments on that here), and
2) Sijun's getting too crowded, resulting in categories starting to blend together. Grey areas are pretty broad right now as to what the existing categories mean. Also, no house ground rules of conduct are implied or enforced to any extent. I also think that having order with only 0.0006% of the current members as moderators is not very realistic.

I think if we start with adding a couple of well though out categories and policing them with a set of ground rules and more moderators, you'll see a lot less griping here. This may even solve the bulk of the problems.

So yeah, let's get back to nailing down forum ground rules?



[ August 05, 2001: Message edited by: Red Leader ]

[Imhotep]

Two or three harder mods that get along with everyone well enough (that don't hesitate to delete whole threads the second it gets out of hand) would solve a lot of problems I think.

[nova]

Finally peace is being restored to the happy kingdom.. hooray!

Yea, I agree with Red Leader on the section topics but I think conceptual design should be strictly conceptual design.. basically a technical idea on paper. I like the way Francis described conceptual design on his board at http://pub51.ezboard.com/bconceptualdesign . Fridge door should be more of the sketchbook pages and rough drafts I think.

More moderators would help.

Not everyone is going to ignore pointless threads and bashing on other people (I can't understand why, but that's ok).. they should be deleted.

Now let's spread some love..

[Red Leader]

Just for the record, I e-mailed Dhabih tonight and asked him to look at this thread. This IS his forum, so this thread is basically going to go nowhere without him. Hopefully he will join in.


...now, let's tackle rules of conduct!

[ August 05, 2001: Message edited by: Red Leader ]

[jcFIG]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Red Leader:
.....There are a few members on the board who seem to be here just to flame and otherwise piss people off... we should warn, then ignore such persons, not fuel them....

---

It's a shame I didn't read this post before because I got a rude awekening from some angst ridden artists when I tried saying hello in the wrong forum. If I could have I would have immediately deleted my post but now it's turning ugly and I just got here yesterday. Hopefully things calm down. Later Red Leader.

[Bishop_Six]

Ok, the ideas for the sections of the forum sound good to me. Now for the rules of conduct:

1. No attacks of an individual or their art should be tolerated. If someone posts something like this, the post should be deleted and the person be warned. If the behavior continues the person should be banned.

2. Posts that are in no way related to the thread should be deleted. No posting random pictures in another person's thread.

3. Posts which say only, "this is cool!" or, "this is crap!" should be kept to a minimum(especially the latter). If you like/dislike someone's art, don't just say so and leave it at that. Point out what you see wrong or something about it that you like. You benefit not only the artist by critiquing, but yourself also.

These are just what came to my mind while sitting here. I'm sure there's much more to be said on this subject and I'd like to hear it.

[Lunatique]

Um, I don't know if any of you noticed this:

We keep saying, "It's up to Dhabih...blah blah...only he could decide...we need to get Dhabih to...blah blah." The problem is, WHO is actually talking to Dhabih about ANY of what's going on????? Who is actually bringing these suggestions and ideas we have to him???? We can talk and discuss all we want, but if Dhabih does not hear any of this NOTHING will change.

The sad fact is, Dhabih doesn't seem to even want to deal with all this crap. He keeps the forum running, and that's about it. he fixes it when it goes down. I don't even know if he EVER looks at the forum anymore. It appears that only Sumaleth and Enayla actively patrol the forums, and that's 2 people trying to watch over the activities of over 4 thousand members. No way in hell this place can be clean when the administrative team is severely underhanded.

I think we should do the following and do it NOW:

1)Draft the first version of the official new Sijun Forum rules, and post it for corrections and improvement. Then, email that version to Dhabih for approval. After the approval process(more corrections from Dhabih), we actually post it officially as THE RULES. We post the rules in all 4 forums(discussion, WIP, gallery, random), and we keep bumping them up so they are always visible(or we just shut down the forum and implement some system where everytime you log on to Sijun, the rules will pop up).

2)We officially nominate more moderators and send that selection to Dhabih for decision.

3)We officially ask Dhabih to give the moderators more power(or let them be more aggresive in how they handle flames and trouble-makers).

Now, WHO talks to Dhabih on a regular basis? Who's going to be our messenger to Dhabih?

There. My 5 cents.

I'll be leaving for California tomorrow, and I won't be able to access Sijun till end of the week. Hopefully things will be in motion the next time I visit.

[ August 05, 2001: Message edited by: Lunatique ]

[Red Leader]

Fig, I'm really sorry aboit the rude welcome you got here...This Rulebook thread is here to address that sort of problem.

The problems with the post you had in Digital art discussions are these:

1) You were not discussing digital art. "Hi" should have been followed with something like "I'm a such-and-such in the digital art field, is anyone else in a related field?" Or something to that effect. Basically you had an empty post, and with a forum this big we can't afford those. They cause other threads to slip past the bottom of page 1 too quickly. Not really your fault, you had no guidelines.

2) People started flaming you just for saying hello. This needs to be addressed with formal rules of conduct, ie. Don't flame, and ignore flamers.

3) You had an animated GIF in your sig. This is a definite no-no and needs to be outlined clearly in a welcome page to new members.

Don't take it too personally, this board grew very fast in a short time, and administration just did not keep up with the growth. We are trying to address that now.

[S4Sb]

Dhabih is scared to come here I read somewhere. Somebody already talked to him, but he's afraid to show up here. God knows why.

[-Gux-]

If I had this forum I would feel kind of like I had 5000 people socialising in my backyard. That doesn't have to be bad as long as you take care of it. If you don't you'll probably end up fearing your backyard.

[Lunatique]

well, it's his forum, and if he doesn't care enough to do something about it, it'll just keep going down the drain.

I suppose there could be a simple solution:

If Dhabih doesn't act, we might have to start another forum. No Lumental scandal this time. Just an organized forum with enough moderators.

[Mezoic]

red leader: i really think, if you had the time and detication, you would make a good moderator. you have a clear understanding of how this forum should be, with all suggestions you have made. your also giving a strong effort to post effective crits to people.

i don't mean to be so open here, but if dhabih decides to accepts more moderators, i hope he chooses you.

[S4Sb]

Yes indeed... that might be the next step. That probably is the next step. But I kinda dislike the idea. It's just like an old home you don'T want to leave. Maybe we can come back when Dhabh shows up.

He already had enough time to do so. It's been how many years now? *reminisces*

[Red Leader]

Hmmm... maybe. I can be cranky though.

[Jaymo]

I think some of the members here would make good moderators (meaning positively guiden things and not doing any threadclosing because they can).
The problem is, moderators need to be empowered by our admin Dhabih. As long as Dhabih doesn't show and struggle for the reordering of this forum himself, I don't think it can be fixed in the long term. Then the best thing might be a new forum as strict as Lumental, but with doors wide open.

just my 2c

[Enayla]

Here, I thought I'd speak my thoughts on the problem.

The last week or so, I have received 50-something emails from very upset people, partly blaming me for what has been going on at the forum. Telling me that I need to delete more posts, ban more members, censor more cussing.

I've had people tell me that I should keep a more strict and rigid guard on the gallery because people post things that aren't finished there. I've also been told, in rather rude words on occasion, that I am unfit as a moderator because I did not ban people like stneil and others of the same trolling demeanour.

I haven't had time to respond to all these mails, so I thought I'd say something here.

I can't ban people (edit: I mean I actually /can't/. There's no BAN function for me. There's no way for me to kick people out of the forum). I can't sit watching through threads on this forum 24/7 because I'm afraid someone might post something in the wrong forum. I do try to move and delete what posts I find inappropriate, but I can't change the view of what's inappropriate or not - I'm working after the guidelines that Dhabih gave me. And no matter what, this is his forum. If I start breaking his rules, I will be no better than the trolls. Until Dhabih has accepted these new rules, there's really nothing I can do. Nobody will be helped by people writing me vicious emails, and I can't really take the blame for the "downfall" of the forum.

All of this has made me depressed enough that I no longer find it fun to visit the forum. The only thing I do while I'm here is click through threads looking for inappropriate things, and the more mails I get about not doing things right, the less inclined do I feel to continue doing this. It's difficult being a moderator when you haven't got any actual authority to do anything. Deleting posts or moving posts isn't really something that will help against the real trolls, especially if they start off in a way that doesn't really break the rules that Dhabih gave me. I'm not supposed to move sketches away from the gallery if the person posting the sketches thinks that they are done. It's easy to say that nothing but actual finished paintings should be posted in the gallery - but if I go through with that, I'm going against Dhabih's original wishes.

I did so anyway, today - partly to see what'll happen because I did it. Maybe I'll be kicked out as a moderator, what do I know? Maybe I'll be flamed *shrugs*... Right now, I'm considering quitting the job anyway, if everything I get from it is people accusing me of being a bad person. I'm not a bad person. I just have a life outside the forum. We're TWO people trying to hold this together. It's easy enough to say exactly what the two of us should be doing with our spare time, but it's not so easy to do it.

I'm sorry, people. If I get one more mail like that, I'll blow a fuse. I know you all mean well (actually, some of the people writing me probably didn't - they just do not like me and thought they could throw in a free punch). I simply can't spend more time here than I already do, not right now, and not with an important deadline approaching.

Sorry for the long post.

[ August 06, 2001: Message edited by: Enayla ]

[faustgfx]

two words, fuck 'em.

[SlightlyTwisted]

That really annoys me. You shouldn't be getting that treatment. As a moderator, this place must be nightmare enough as it is. As a member, you've contributed a lot more to the community over the last half year than most others here.

I agree with faustgfx. You don't deserve this, and it isn't worth your time.

[gLitterbug]

I hope we get a reaction from dhabih.

Some things that came to my mind.

- we need a very clear definition of WHAT belongs WHERE, I think many members don�t care about where they post something as long as they KNOW where they should.

- some rules for subjects - if it contains big images or especially nudity, for those at work

- something about the signature, I think the one of Randis Albion is inappropiate (I told him), and the try to go around the "lack" (I would say it�s a blessing) image signatures, someone tried should also be handled.
I don�t mind long signatures, but with sense in it in any way or at least anything humorous.

- Advice people to not jump into the forum without reading them for some time, to get the feel and see how things work here.

- No welcome-only posts, but something useful in addition to the welcome

- tell people to be civilized, yes I�ve been accused of doing not so, but I didn�t tell somebody direct into the face to fuck off or that he is an asshole. You should be allowed to tell what you think, but not with personal attacks of that kind.

Hm, I�ll add some more thought, if they come to my mind.

[-Gux-]

With the "new" forum this kind of thing won't happen. With the rules clearly stated people will have no reason to harass the moderators (which there will be plenty of). It has to change pretty soon too as people are getting fed up. I think we all understand the hellish nature of being a moderator right now.

[Red Leader]

Enayla, I don't know why anyone would knock your moderating ability.
You are just one person trying to do your best.
You are following rules set forth to you.
It seems that the rules that Dahbih has set down are no longer working, that's not really your problem, and not a direct fault of Dhabih's, it's just that the board has out populated his original rules.

He doesn't seem to see this board as fun any more, you are frustrated with moderating it, and I for one am tired of all the leaping and frollicking of troublemakers.

Enayla, I have been trying to see what I can achieve on my own without being a moderator... a security guard as opposed to a cop if you will. I am very interested to know your opinion of this, as I do not want to step on your, or the other moderators toes. If you feel my telling people to "knock it off" is inapropriate, I hope you will let me know.

I just want a happy orderly place to post and crit. And have fun.

[ August 06, 2001: Message edited by: Red Leader ]

[Enayla]

Red Leader: As an individual, I truly do appreciate your attempts to make this forum a better place. It's nice to see someone making an effort instead of just whining. As a moderator, I really don't know what to say. I doubt I have the authority to actually "make" you a security guard, as such... I'd advice you to ask Dhabih, but I don't think he has the time to respond. Given how many emails I've received, I dread to think of the amount HE has received. I'd ask him, but he doesn't reply to my emails as of the moment, so there is very little I can do. If I could, I'd give you the authority, but I can't. As I said, my person opinion is that this is a very good idea.

Just keep your "security guard" business nice, and I don't think there should be a problem. No bullying, but I think you're grown up enough to know that already ;)

[ August 06, 2001: Message edited by: Enayla ]

[gLitterbug]

I like what you do Red Leader. I try to do so myself. But when I tell someone he did something somewhat inappropiate, suddenly there hop people in the thread and say I shouldn�t be so rude. Go back to that thread and read my posts there again and then say its too rude. I didn�t swear and did tell him not to be pissed off and that I just want to tell him some rules he should stick to. Then I went to work in progress and posted a reply to his topic, not very constructive maybe, but that wasn�t possible for me.

Then I get a reply what an asshole I am and I should shut the fuck off because I�m not even a moderator and nobody is interested in what I think about the board should be. That surely gets me motivated to think of the future of the board. If everybody thinks, what I�m doing is senseless or even bad, then I should maybe leave this place. I would�ve never considered that before, but now I�m not so sure about it...

One thing I don�t understand in any way is why dhabih doesn�t care in any way about this place? I mean if he doesn�t care, why doesn�t he give away rights or shut it down completely?

[Red Leader]

Enayla,

Ah, perhaps i was not clear in what I typed. I'm not even sure I'd WANT to be a moderator. I was curiousto know what you think of my simply policing as I have been,and was not asking you to pin a badge on me

But I get the gyst of what you think anyway.

[Red Leader]

Uh, gLitterbug (note proper spelling) I'm not sure what posts you're talking about. could you add some links?

As for everyone else, we're straying off target a bit...

What other helpful suggestions to you have for forum rules?

[gLitterbug]

http://www.sijun.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=008473

the welcome thread

I think it has cleared up, but I just noticed how people react when you try to tell them what to do or what not. Suddenly people bust out their guns, flip a table, duck behind it and start to fire back.

EDIT: forgot to say "thank you!" for the proper spelling, I really appreciate that much.

[ August 06, 2001: Message edited by: gLitterbug ]

[java]

I think we have got a lot of really good suggestions that would make this forum a better place.

Have more moderators, responsible and mature ones. Let them be more strict and firm and sort/move/remove inappropriate posts.

Have more sub-forums, like the ones Red Leader suggested. Keep the Random Musings as is now.

Have clear and visible rules and really make sure that the new users reads and understands them properly. (perhaps with a script like someone suggested)


On a sidenote, Enayla, ignore the morons. They are most probably just immature, its not your fault sijun is what it is at the moment. But I do think you can be a bit more firm from now on, atleast until Dhabih says otherwise, I hardly think he dislikes all attempts of making this a better place!

[ceenda]

I just did a websearch in the archive, as I was interested in exactly what my first few posts were like.

If I had posted today what I posted then, I would have been kicked off the forum in the newbie-lynching fashion that we have today.

It just kinda came to me that most 'newbies' take a wee while to understand the limits of what is, and what is not, acceptable on the forum.