[Red Leader]

There are a lot of members here, who, like myself, feel that this place has become a chaotic mob with no sense of order or respect. Everyone is edgey since the Lumental split, and many people seem to be taking it out on the board...I suggest that we turn this energy to something positive, and try to bring order to this place.

I spent the better part of my evening trying to give crits and advice to people in the gallery, and got a lot of crappy feedback in return from newbies... I think we, as members, have to set our own rules and guidelines in place to keep this forum from sinking any further and losing more members.

I suggest that we self police using guidelines similar to the following:

From now on, Finished gallery be used as just that. Not half finished work, not rough pencil drawings, finished gallery should be for completely finished work.
Period. Regardless of the skill level of the poster.

Work in progress is where rough sketches, or images we'll never bother to complete should go.

(One question is where sketchbook drawings should go...)

Posters can offer crits and advice if asked for, but should not be allowed to put down the advice of others without offering a reason why/ or a rebuttal. There are a few members on the board who seem to be here just to flame and otherwise piss people off... we should warn, then ignore such persons, not fuel them.

Does anyone agree with this? Can we attempt to use this as a very loose starting point... to build up a set of rules that will help bring order to this place?

I probably got ahead of myself tonight trying to shake things up in various threads on my own... if we can all band together and formulate a set of rules however, we will all be better off in the long run.

Please add suggestions, but keep them positive, helpful, and realistic, and maybe we can all agree on something.

[Imhotep]

I think most of its sound advise, except for the definition of finished work. I think if something is done to the artist, it's done. Whether or not others view it that way. (BTW, this has nothing to do with the advice you gave me in my post, just my thoughts on what’s done and what’s not). Something's look good "unfinished". I view the work in progress forum for cases where a person just can't get something right. If something is finished, even if it’s just a sketch, it's finished. Regardless of how others see things. It's up to the artist. If we could only post 100% completed down to the smallest detail work and only that was considered finished it would restrict a lot of artists. Who are we to judge others view of their own art. I think if anyone should do it it’s the mods. And I think they do damn fine good job as is. Just my thoughts…

[FatPenguin]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Imhotep:
If something is finished, even if it�s just a sketch, it's finished. Regardless of how others see things. It's up to the artist.

---

Fair enough, but just because you are finished with a sketch or scribble, doesn't mean you should post in the gallery. A lot of people do. In with most of the images in the gallery forum it is difficult to figure out exactly why the people posted them. Often they are not good enough to be actually interesting for anyone to look at, they are obviously not looking for advice on how to improve the image (or at least they're in the wrong forum if they are). They just seem to be posting for the hell of it, and that has to stop

[Blitz]

Tis a good path Red.
I like it and thats what I beleve.

The problem is not if the rules are good or where the sketchbook art should go.

The problem is, With a good set of rules will everyone commit.

There is more hate here than art. And WAY to much grandstanding. To many people and not enough soapboxes to go around.

So If its positive and will help the forum out Im all for it.


ART FIRST....

Blitz

Take it eazy boys and girls

[Jim S]

This is by far one of the best posts I've read in a long time now, with all the Lumental madness and flaming going on. It's people like you, Red Leader who will save this forum. I agree with almost every word you said.
A set of rules that people around here have to follow, would be really great, along with a couple of more moderators.
And for those of us who want to have the forums back the way they once were, we should really do our best to first of all, behave ourselves in a good manner, setting the tone for those who don't know/are able to act normally, and secondly, we should show the newbies RESPECT, and help them when they're screwing up, instead of immediatly start flamethrowing. I dunno if that sounds totally crazy... but it's just my two cents.

And for what's considered finished work or not I think I pretty much agree to what
Imhotep and FatPenguin said.

/Jim

[avaj]

Ive been reading the forums here since 98 or early 99 (cant really remember) but have never really posted anything (shame on me). But I think its about time. Its really a big shame that a lot of good artists now have left Sijun, but life goes on, they dont want to be here, fine. Its up to us to make this place great, to stop whining and go on.
Ill follow Red Leaders example and start making more comments, I am no Micke or Craig or anything, but hey, atleast I do comment.

[Red Leader]

Avaj,

Critiquing peoples work is a great way to learn yourself. Nothing teaches you better than teaching.

Members shouldn't be afraid to crit people's work, as long as we all take the time to try and figure out what is wrong with the image, instead of the average poster's "It rocks!" or "It's not working"... Tell the artist why

[MoleculeMan]

We should also see if Dhabih has any words to say about Forum Rules, because if he does, then the moderators can enforce them. The rules seem sound (though i agree with Imhotep about finished), but would be better if there was a mod behind them.

Also, good point about the teaching too heh. Since i have started coming here and actually interacting my skills have improved a lot and its really helped to train my eyes.

[Red Leader]

I agree, I'd like to hear Dhabih's opinion, as well as the moderators. Rules are theirs to enforce, after all.

[ August 05, 2001: Message edited by: Red Leader ]

[seburo_007]

maybe you can create more defined sub-catagories so there is less confusion to where to put a sketch that one considers finished, etc. possible by making more catagories ie. sketchbook, lifedrawings, etc. then it will be more obvious what you falls under.

this is similar to a few other forums i've seen.

this is an example of what i was trying to explain :: http://pub54.ezboard.com/bcartoonandillustrationparadise66133

[VanhoozerArt]

I agree.

I think that the sooner we get back to drawing and helping each other out, the better off we will be. I think as artists, we all need to realize that there are not too many places that you can go and get comments and opinions from other talented artists from all over the globe. This place is a really valuable tool, and it is up to us to keep it that way.

I will do all I can to help.

Jeremy

[-Gux-]

Take a look at the last page of the "yeah" thread, there's some good suggestions there.

I still strongly believe that this forum can be saved.

[Radiater]

Hey Red Leader,

I read many of the criticisms that you posted. Personally, I think that the c&c's you gave people were very good. It was direct and to the point.

Even though none of the posts you critiqued were mine, reading how you analyzed each picture was educational. Thanks. I, for one, appreciated the amount of work you put into those crits.

Radiater.

[Sc00p-]

A finished sketch, is finished work, is it not? Just beacuse it doesn't have color doesn't mean it's going to progress any further. Pretty much 95% of my leisure work that I like to show to you Sijun viewers happens to be rough pencil sketches, so I would indefinitely refuse these "rules".

I say, don't bother to take the law into your own hands unless you can actually do something about enforcing it (ie: get some moderators that actually have a shred of power, not just the ability to delete threads...but I'm wasting my breath, Dhabih will never read this).

I don't know if this has any merit, but I've actually subscribed to this forum days after it first started...so excuse me if I'm not overly moved by all of the complaints from people that have come in extremely late. Yes this forum is going to hell lately, but we can't blame newbies, there are plenty of good ones who learn common forum etiquette at least after a while, all we can really complain about right now is the lack of enforcement.

[Impaler]

Thoughts from "someone who usually knows what he's talking about":

1) Forum scripts usually allow you to post a brief 5,000 word Guidline at the top of every single forum, thus eliminating the need for an actual Rules thread.

2) What are the criteria for electing a moderator? Who's been here longer? Who has more posts? User approval rating? Surely enough, the moderators would try their best to Nazi the place up, erasing threads by fgfx or whatever, just in an ironic attempt to make the board a better place.

3) Random Musings shouldn't be moderated too aggressively. If we don't allow people a place to explode, then they take it out on the rest of the forum and turn it into a generally miserable place. No one really remembers flame threads for more than a week, anyways.

4) Starting another forum is guaranteed failure. People are too lazy to update bookmarks.

[gLitterbug]

I�m somehow shocked how often people use the word Nazi, without thinking about it. At least I get that impression. I�ve made comparisons like that myself in the lumental matter, but I really thought about why and also said that. But I don�t think that moderators would "nazi up" that place, but keep it clean. They won�t hunt down people for racist reasons! Just to make that clear!

So said that; going on.
I agree with random musings not getting moderated as aggresively as the art-forums. It�s not THAT important and has another use than they.
I don�t think a new forum is a guaranteed failure. People who are too lazy to update their bookmarks, aren�t too valuable for a board at all I think. I could imagine building a forum, but I�m not 100% sure about being good at it.

[LordArioch]

I was under the impression that a separate "work in progress" forum was started just so people posting in the regular forum wouldn't have to worry about wondering whether or not the piece was done, and the artist couldn't say, "oh, well I was going to fix that." I don't really think the roughness (or sketchiness) of the piece has anything to do with whether it's "finished" or not. If the artist is done with it, then it's finished. I don't see why it's so hard to critique a rough piece on its merits. Not every piece has to be a photo-realistic rendered masterpiece. Otherwise, who decides whether a piece is "good" enough to go in the Finished forum? Or should we rename the forum "stuff Red Leader doesn't think is crap"? And, is this really the biggest problem on the forum?

As for the "real" problems such as the constant flame wars... well, that's to be expected on an unmoderated forum. Dhabih hardly ever posts here, and I can't remember the moderators (who are they? I only know of one) actually doing anything. So, you can complain all you like, but trolls aren't going to police themselves, and unless Dhabih actually empowers someone who cares about the forum to moderate it, nothing will change.

[-Gux-]

I just saw someone posting 60k animated gif in his reply. Just think how this forum would be if signature images were allowed. :/
Gallery/Finished Work forum makes me feel lost. Where's the respect and common sense?

LordArioch: There are moderators and they do what they can. It's just to big. And the biggest problem is the influx of half assed art(read: not serious) and the absence of constructive critisicm.

[ August 05, 2001: Message edited by: -=Gux=- ]

[Red Leader]

Hey, let's quit complaining. Arioch, I mean you. The post you are referring to had a note at the bottom of it specifically stating that it was not complete, and would never be finished. I did not think Imhotep's "Blade of the immortal" post was crap, I just said it was in the wrong category.

Not done = not done = work in progress.

Lets get back on topic, namely, what rules can we present to Dhabih?
Keep it positive and realistic, this does not mean starting a new forum, let's save THIS one.

We need a good set of rules that the majority agree on. Tighter moderation excluding Random Musing is a good start, lets keep it going.

[ August 05, 2001: Message edited by: Red Leader ]

[-Gux-]

Setting rules of conduct that should be displayed openly. Closing down the forum for a few days and display these would affect people I think.

[Flinthawk]

To start, personally, I'm trying to figure out exactly when pencil sketches became 'digital art'...I mean, these are digital art forums, no? Tighter restrictions on those kinds of images would help keep traffic down in the artwork forums. If people are still into posting pencil sketches then I wouldn't mind seeing another Misc Art forum where pencil sketches and other traditional art pieces can be displayed (such as oil or gouache paintings or marker renderings). Yes, I know that many digital pieces start as pencil sketches but there are more sketches that don't progress beyond traditional media than those that do.

That said, I agree with Red Leader that we should come up with a set of rules to be approved and enforced by Dhabih and the moderators. I understand that some of the ideas stated have already met resistance, such as what do we consider finished and what do we consider a work in progress. Well, I think my suggestion above should help cut down 'unfinished' work hanging out in the gallery because even if an artist considers their pencil sketch finished it would belong in the Misc (or maybe Traditional) art forum.

Keeping the traffic low within the sub-forums may help keep things manageable and it may give people the opportunity to critique people's work before it falls into the abyss of page 2. I personally feel that I would be able to critique more stuff if I didn't have to wade through thread after thread of rather unfinished stuff...by the time I've gotten through all the threads I'm too worn out to offer up any advice (which might be a good thing, haha...no advice would be better than bad advice ).

So, just making a point and offering up my support of a new rule set to govern the forums by.

-Flinthawk
ICQ#78045851

[java]

(my avaj account has gone wild or something .. grr ..)

Red Leader: Yeah, I guess you are right, even though it doesnt really feel ok to comment on others art..

I agree with Flinthawk, maybe Sijun needs to have more sub-forums for stuff like traditional art and such.

And yes, we need more devoted moderators, especielly now since Sumaleth has gone to "the other side". We need to tidy up around here more.

New users should also be better informed about the rules and expected behaviour here when registrating.

[Imhotep]

I think there are a lot of good suggestions here; I hope some of them will work . Anyway, what's sort of getting to me is I see people wanting and getting feedback but not giving any. It has to be a two way street. I think many wouldn't feel so left out of getting if they would give some too. Also I think it would cut back on some of the traffic if people realize that art forums aren’t art temp galleries. So I believe a permanent attention post stuck at the top of every art forum with rules would definitely help. With more strict moderation to enforce those rules of course.

[Lunatique]

Some ideas:

1)Any inflamatory threads will be closed down, or deleted completely.

2)Personal insults and juvenile bickering will not be tolerated. If a member steps out of line by saying things similar to "Fuck you, you piece of shit, your art sucks..blah blah" will be given a warning. If this person does it again, a second warning will be given. Third strike, a ban. I'm really sorry to say this, but any faust-like behavior will not be tolerated. I have nothing against him, in fact, I think he's basically a decent person. Just the way he expresses his anger is a very negative role model for newbies. There are much more polite and civilized way to express yourself. (Sorry, Jussi, this is just my idea of the kind of behavior that we NEED at Sijun to improve it. I really don't have anything against you as a person. Just your anger is a bit much at times. I know you can be really sweet to people you actually like, but the thing is, we have to be nice to everyone in general for this place to work.)

3)Clueless people that post stolen art, 30 doodles in Galery section will be told politely to cease and desist, but if that person continues, just IGNORE him. It's that simple. If it's severe enough, we just delete the threads.

There, my 5 cents.

[Mezoic]

Lunatique: interesting ideas, however, don't you think that might be slightly difficult to keep up with? maybe im wrong, but keeping a 3 strikes and your out record on someone might put a little strain on a moderator, especially with so many members.

[burn0ut]

theres a 3strikes rule already... but its never used hehe

[aquamire]

Some good ideas going on in here. I had a somewhat unique idea that I posted in a thread earlier, which dropped off the face of Sijun, so I thought I'd repeat it here, if no one minds.

I had a relatively good idea some time ago, that I've never actually seen implemented anywheres before. A simple way to stop, or at least slow down trolls. An Idiot-Filter, if you will. In no means should this limit 'newbies', as I believe a lot of new people who come to this forum are eager to learn, have knowledge to share, and many of them are well behaved.

Heres the idea. It would require writing a small perl script or something. New users would come to the forum, and before being able to register as new, would have to read a list of rules. After the user has read the forum policies, they would be taken to a cgi script that would actually be a quiz on what they had just read as the rules. The purpose of the quiz is not only to make sure people know what the rules are, it's also a natural filtration device against ignorant people who cant be bothered with rules. The idea being, an arrogant user might not take the time to read the rules, and will just not give a damn enough to actually fill out a quiz. Of course, it wouldn't be 100% asshole proof, but I think it would slow that kind of activity down.

A hurdle with this kind of device is the implementation of it with UBB. UBB isn't scalable itself, unless you feel like hacking its code. What could be done is making the forum require a password as if it were private. Of course it wouldn't really be private, the user would retrieve the password after having passed the test.

Sound like a good idea? Of course if it is a good idea, Dhab would need a person with knowledge of Perl or some other CGI backend, but I imagine there's a few people here who could do something like that.

Just an idea I've had for awhile, curious to see what people think.

[Akolyte]

Hehe, good idea Aquamire. Would be nice to have something formal implemented here.

Here's my thoughts:

I think instead of arguing about what a finished sketch/rough idea is, why not make seperate forums for these? We could have Digital Discussion and Random Musing for talk, and for display, Works In Progress, Finished Work, and Completed Work Gallery. The sketches or ideas (blah blah blech) could go in the Finished Work section. or, since everyone dislikes the traffic amount, we could take another approach at splitting up the forum. We could go as far as to split the Finished section into basic sections of art. Since the majority of what is posted here is either A.) Fantasy B.) Science Fiction C.) Conceptual Art or D.) Works from observation, then we could split it among those lines. This way, you will know what you are looking at before you even enter each forum. There is just way too much traffic in the Finished section as of now, and stuff is getting left behind, which is NOT fair, whether the artist be a newbie or not. There has to be some guidelines smacked down and some people placed in charge within the next couple of weeks, or we WILL see Sijun deteriorate continually. This is my opinion.

[Red Leader]

I like Akolyte's idea of more forums, this will help keep people's posts from slipping down the list so quickly.

How do you feel about breaking up the art galleries as follows:

1) Finished art... for completed digital art only

2) Conceptual drawings ... this would Include pencil sketches, rough drafts, sketchbook pages etc

3) Work in progress

4) The fridge door... I really like this one, this would be for work we'll never bother to finish, old oil paintings we found lying around, etc. Basically the art equiv. of random musing.

Fun stuff like the Green monkey thread would be posted on the "fridge door" too, I think this would bring back a lot of the good natured fun of the board without bogging down the poor abused finished gallery.

Of course, we'd leave art discussions and Random musing as is.

We really shouldn't break it down more than this, it would spread things too thin. I feel these 2 new ones help cover all the holes that currently plague the board. Who agrees?

[ August 05, 2001: Message edited by: Red Leader ]

[Red Leader]

Stupid back button on my browser keeps double posting me, sorry.

[ August 05, 2001: Message edited by: Red Leader ]