Sijun Forums :: View topic - my fight with the value demon (next update)

S4Sb · Posted: Mon May 27, 2002 9:57 am

Hey all!
This started as a speed painting pic, but in the end I spent 1.5 to 2 hours on it. Maybe someone can give me some critique about values and composition. I have the biggest problems with values, so if you have very little time criticise that please =) This is supposed to be a foggy swamp setting, so I thought under-emphazised values would fit, but I'm not too sure about that anymore. Also I thought that there would be a very high level of moistness in the air, so that I have a very high air perspective.

Basically it all culminates in the question: does it look like a swamp setting? And if not, then please elaborate.

Overpaints welcome! =)

Thank you for your time

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Fingerswinger · Posted: Mon May 27, 2002 10:11 am

looks very nice i'd say!
fog kills the dark values. everything gets blended with white (or grey, the "fog colour") - increasing with distance. exactly like you painted.
true black or fully saturated colours (in a colour pic of course) would only be seen directly in front of the viewpoint at no distance.

Novacaptain · Posted: Mon May 27, 2002 4:33 pm

nice stuff S4Sb!
If it was a swamp I'm pretty sure their feet would sink in a little more...

The metal (presubably) tips to their lances could use some more definition...harder edges, perhaps?

Also, There seems to be a lot of dead space in this image and the composition doesn't seem very strong right now. I'm no composition guru so i can't even guess at how to improve it.

Actually I suppose i can guess:
The image's bottom half has a lot of darks in it but the top half is pretty empty. The group in the center doesn't give much sense of movement. maybe some more trees could give it a more interesting look and take care of the empty spaces. I actually did a similar picture for the gas mask thread...certainly not better but you might find some aspect of it interesting.

image

Bilbo · Posted: Mon May 27, 2002 11:47 pm

This one looks great.. i think you definitely did a good job with the swampy look. i think that as a swamp it should have some more dense vegetation- trees, ferns,etc.. another thing that i'm slightly bothered by is that the guy on front and the guy behind him on the left seem to be too similar in value and tend to fuse into each other. the guy on the right is my favorite..great pose and expression.

Rhomb · Posted: Tue May 28, 2002 4:21 am

I think you captured the charged/on the edge mood very well. And yes, it looks like a swamp setting. I would try to correct the composition with e.g. adding a tree to the foreground, and maybe put its branch bending over the group. Also you should try to refine the foremost guy's hands/fingers, give them more expression. Now they look too bulky compared to the hands of the men behind him. Very nice work.

Ville

[ May 28, 2002: Message edited by: Rhomb ]

S4Sb · Posted: Tue May 28, 2002 4:57 am

Wow, thank you all for the great replies! They are really helpful.

Fingerswinger: Yeah, that were exactly my thoughts. But I thought it looked strange in the end. Somehow blurred.

Bilbo: Thanks! I agree that I should have seperated the colours better between the two. And I have always problems with adding backgrounds. That is probably the next big step to take. I always start with the characters and that makes it hard for me to put a background in the picture afterwards.
Hope to see some more art from you soon =)

Novacaptain: Thanks! Yeah, you are right. I completely forgot the metal on the pikes. Damnit, they won't be able to fight a lot with those sticks =)
You are right about the composition as well. I really should think about combining for- and background more. And thanks for that picture help. I really like the mood in that one.

Rhomb: Thank you!

You are definetly right about your points. But I don't think I will touch that one anymore. I really gotta do a lot of monochrome drawings if I want to progress. But I hope to see some more of your pictures soon. The Rhomb folder on my hard disk is longing for more content =)

So here's the next one:

I know that the composition really sucks badly on this one. But I tried to focus on values and completely forgot about background or all the rules of composition. I will try to make my next picture more readable.

Thank you for your time.

Gimbal8 · Posted: Tue May 28, 2002 7:31 am

I know you aren't going back to the swamp one but I figured I'd mention something else that could help. Putting more variation in the density of the fog/mist in different areas and making the mist more speckled, especially against dark objects. I think it might add to the look of wetness. Very cool image btw. It certainly looks like everyone there is a bit on edge.

I don't think the composition sucks badly in the second pic. The guy in the foreground gets lost in the silhouette of the big guy. Maybe just moving the little guy over far enough so his head breaks free from the big guy might help.

The values look good to me, although maybe some more contrast in them would help. Or maybe extended the reflected light out more so that the darkest value becomes more of a dividing line between the light and dark side of the form. This would allow you to bring more detail into your shadows too. No idea if that would look better or not, but it could be something to try.

Big Pa · Posted: Tue May 28, 2002 11:46 pm

I like both of them. You're on the right track. Keep it up

Fate · member Member # Joined: 16 Mar 2001 Posts: 168

maybe the formation of the soldiers look a little TOO well organized

S4Sb · Posted: Wed May 29, 2002 3:17 pm

Gimbal: Great points. Thank you. I tried to put all my gained knowledge into the new picture. Higher contrast etc. Better?

Big Pa: Thank you =)

Fate: Hmmm.. guess you're right. But I probably won't go back to that one. Thanks for your comment tho.

Novacaptain · Posted: Wed May 29, 2002 6:18 pm

"yeah! give that unsuspecting and treacherous hill the pounding it deserves! c'mon men! we'll have it blasted to smithereens by nightfall!!"

just kidding.

Anyways there could be a little more work on edges and materials...i know you have a tendency to make everything look "soft" almost like clay. but metal is quite hard most of the times. The guy's helmet, armor, skin, gun seem to be pretty much the same material (with different forms). The sky isn't just plain blue (or gray in this case). Even without clouds you'll have variation. on a sunny day, the sky will be a darker blue straight up and grow brighter towards the horizon...where you can see a hint of green if you look closely. Around the sun there is usuallly a whitish "aura".

S4Sb · Posted: Thu May 30, 2002 12:01 am

Novacaptain: hehehe, thanks a lot for your critique. I tried to cahnge a couple of things. Put some variation in the background and tried to define the metal of the weapon and the shoulder pad a bit more. I really don't know how to make metal look like metal.
arrr...gotta work from reference.

Gimbal8 · Posted: Thu May 30, 2002 5:21 am

Cool image, and I think the lighting is really good. Novacaptain did hit upon something I couldn't quite put my finger on before. The whole thing about everything being made from the same material, like clay or something. I think I get what he is saying there. It may have something to do with local value too. Aside from texture or color, local value could help seperate things of different material visually. Like take the guy in front for example: The gun, his armor, face, arm, helmet...they all look as if it all started as a 50% gray and then light and shadow way added to give it all form. But what if the guy's face and arm started out as 35% grey before adding light and shadow? Or maybe even go over the picture as is on a different layer. Set your brush to 10% on the white end and uncheck the opacity setting and block in his face.

I dunno. My suggestion could be crap too. I don't have time to try it out myself and see if it works.

As far as metal goes, I don't think I can offer any assistance. Maybe light having a sharper falloff range on the metal so that you get more sharp edged points of light instead of diffuse areas of brightness or something? Second pic does look better. The high reflective glint of the shoulder pad looks much more like metal.

merlyns · Posted: Thu May 30, 2002 6:09 am

wow you can handle black and whitt without getting the picture to look boring good work.

-david

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S4Sb · Posted: Thu May 30, 2002 8:30 am

Gimbal8: Thanks man! That totally made sense. I will try to practice some material definition in my future pictures. Thank you a lot for your time and help.

merlyns: Thanks a lot!

Another one. Practicing materials and the use of more contrast.
Again crits and comments are appreciated.

Dryfire · Posted: Thu May 30, 2002 12:27 pm

Wow man, your just pumping these out like hell! Looking great man! I like all of them! the last one especially, I think you have a great sense of depth in it. Hmm wish i could find some critiques on the values, but hehe i can't really offer much assistance, but i was wondering what that dark shape on the back of the knight on the right. Is it like a sheild? backpack? hmm well anyway, it should have more lighting on it since its facing the lightsource =) great pictures though man =)

Gimbal8 · Posted: Thu May 30, 2002 3:14 pm

Jeesh, every time I turn around you have something else done. I wish I could be as productive.

Kamal · member Member # Joined: 21 Nov 2001 Posts: 143

Really cool stuff.

My only crit would be that in general all the pieces are really bottom heavy (compositionally). Try balancing it out by putting some stuff up top. My favorite is the third one. What might help on that one is maybe adding a dark cloud on the upper part.

I tried something really quick in photoshop to show you what I mean:

nil900 · Posted: Fri May 31, 2002 1:39 am

geiles Zeug, warum habe ich erst eins davon bei decoy gesehen? Mach ma bunt!!!

Gecko · Posted: Fri May 31, 2002 2:42 am

Go St�lting go!
I'm liking these a lot!

SolarC · Posted: Fri May 31, 2002 3:41 am

S4Sb,
Great work! Your stuff is getting better picture by picture! I think I have to do the same exercise, since I got to learn a lot about the values too.

By the way, did you use any kind of reference material?

S4Sb · Posted: Fri May 31, 2002 9:01 am

Dryfire: Hey, how are you doing man? =) Thanks for your critique. The thing on the soldiers back is a backpack. I agree though that it's pretty hard to identify. It was the last thing I added and I couldn't wait to post it here =) Hope to see you in paintchat sometime. I haven't been there in ages.

Gimbal8: Hehheeh, university starts soon and I want to use every minute until then =)

Kamal: Hey, thank you for the paintover. You're absolutely right about the composition. I guess I somehow unconsciously tried to solve that problem with the tree in the soldier picture. But it really looks a thousand times better with the smoke in the bg. I will definetly try to change that in the next couple of pictures.

nil: Danke =) Eigentlich sind sie alle bei Decoy. Ich wei� allerdings noch nicht ob Ich davon eins bunt mache. Mir fehlt da irgendwie die passende Technik. Wie hastn Du z.B. dein Hammermann Bild bunt gemacht?

Gecko: hehehe, thank you! I will! Did you get my message? How are you, man? What's up over there in Finland? Army's over... what's next?

Solar C: Thank you =) I can only recommend that. I have the feeling that I learned the most on the first 3 pictures tho. I didn't use any reference. But that isn't so much idealism. It's more the fact that as soon as I start to use any ref, I will doodle the picture to death. I loose too much speed and I have the feeling that I learn less. But if you are comfortable using ref, then do. It's probably better.

edit: forgot the picture =)

We'll attack at dawn, your majesty

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Kamal · member Member # Joined: 21 Nov 2001 Posts: 143

Love these comps. Especially the last one.

once again I couldn't resist the temptation to paint over one. On the last one add the horizon. Maybe a few stars?

kind of like this: (I hope you don't mind me doing this, let me know if it bothers you)

Novacaptain · Posted: Fri May 31, 2002 2:19 pm

hey that's nice. the last one is neat.

The city looks a little too densely populated (and urban planning is something more recent i believe) for the time in which people used armors and swords...

But then again...time travel?

spooge demon · Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2002 2:01 am

I don't know if this helps any, but here's my take on it.

Worry more about drawing, less about value. This goes double for myself. There are instances where the two dovetail. Example, look at the thickness of the spears. The viewers brain assumes that they are all of the same thickness, so in perspective (part of drawing) they get thinner. It's a subtle thing, but a really important clue of depth in one of the few areas of the image that has any kind of sharp edge or contrast. hehe I made the same mistake in a couple of places.

And of course you need to draw from life more, if you are not already.

Godwin · Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2002 6:09 am

quote:
Originally posted by S4Sb:

man i love this pic

and....
did spooge just REPAINT that thing??
cool

S4Sb · Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2002 6:52 am

kamal: Hey, I'm very thankful for your paintovers. You have excellent composition suggestions. Those are very much appreciated. Just continue as long you have fun doing them. I'm learning from them =)

Novacaptain: hehe, yeah right. I was so happy that I got the perspective right, that I totally forgot about scale =)

spooge demon: Hmmm, I'm not sure if that will help me either. I'm thankful for your paintover though, but weren't you the one who told us that value is much more important than colour or anything else? Value defines form etc. I thought that this was the best practice I could do.
Well, you are right when you say that my paintings scream from 1000 miles away that the artist has no experience in painting from life. So, I guess I will stop this picture series here and start to buy oils and paint from life. Hope that this is the step in the right direction.

godwin: Thank you

Godwin · Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2002 6:57 am

quote:
Originally posted by S4Sb:

Well, you are right when you say that my paintings scream from 1000 miles away that the artist has no experience in painting from life. So, I guess I will stop this picture series here and start to buy oils and paint from life. Hope that this is the step in the right direction.

hey no, im sure that wasnt what he meant, and i sure hope u're joking

S4Sb · Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2002 12:13 am

Godwin: Hey, wow, thank you for the support. But I won't stop posting here. Just start with what spooge suggested

spooge demon · Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2002 5:19 am

s45B- Nonono... Value is more important than color, but drawing is more important than value. They do overlap, but getting things structurally where they belong is the top priority. So it is drawing, value, color. In drawing, think gesture (action), volume, detail- in that order!

As far as getting oils and doing the plain air thing, you don't need to do that. The idea of drawing from life is that you are presented with objects in 3-d, with way more information than you can possibly record. It is also constantly changing. With working from photos, you copy shapes. Your brain is working at 1/10th power. Working from photos is fine after you have a lot of life drawing under your belt, but it is best draw from life first. In working from life, you have to digest what you see and make a lot of decisions. It is the difference in fresh veggies and bland pureed crap from a can. You have to work your artistic brain a lot harder in working from life. You will take this greater experience back with you into the studio.

Photos are not real, they are very selective. The problem is that the tool is doing the selecting and not you. As you work from life, take photos of your subject. You will see the differences. If you have lived your artistic life through the lens, you will never know the differences.

So draw from life, draw everything, and look and think hard. You do not have to do the stilted traditional barn paintings on location as you might see do from time to time. That's a stylistic choice.

Try to find a good teacher for figure drawing. They are around but hard to find. The best way is the traditional way, draw from castings for a while and get your skills up and then go to the live model.

As far as materials, full value charcoal is fine to start. You can then move to value painting, then to a limited palette. A teacher can help you with that.

Look up Glen Villipu on the web- he's really great and teaches a way of drawing that is very widely applicable.

Hope this helps-