[gLitterbug]

I thought about that newbie-section, but how would you handle that? Would you tell them to post there until they are "good enough" or what have you thought of?

Oh and that was exactly how I imagined you being moderator.

And for being one of the very few persons who spell my username right you get a thick plus!

[Lunatique]

errr. Good question. I did think about it. Here's an idea: In that newbies section, there will be a basic rating system like our 5 stars system(which was kinda pointless). Any newbie that gets x amount of votes from x number of different old-timer members will sort of "graduate" to the other sections. This is in a way like having x numbers of experienced artist all thinking that you've improved, and the calibur of your work is now at a point where you don't need Drawing101-esque help, and you are capable of understanding more advanced concepts in art.

Personally, I think this could organize Sijun into a better and more productive place. Many regard Sijun as an online digital art school anyways, why not just give it a more art school feel? We can have a voting system so that we can all vote for the "instructors," "advanced artists," "learning artists," and "newbie artist." This is NOT classism, or is it elitism. This is to organize the forum into a great learning place, and the challenge/fun/reward of "graduating" into the next step would motivate people to practice, learn and improve. Also, the votes come from all members, not just a few people.

Anyone like this idea or wan to add to it/trash it?

[ August 02, 2001: Message edited by: Lunatique ]

[Mindsiphon]

Exactly. It's not so much the newbies but the "bad quality newbies". I've seen a few really talented newbies with a good attitude.

[dr . bang]

newbie sounds really good, but different people have different perspective of what a newbie is.

[Visigothan]

This is my last post here...An open letter to the idiots that now proliferate this board.

Let me start off by saying:

Fuck you up the ass with a 15" black rubber cock, Jussi.

You're a fucking moron. I used to just tolerate your shit because you've got a moderate amount of talent. Now, you're no better than the fucking no-talent newbie hacks that have been registering and posting as of late. You don't deserve to be on this, OR any other fucking forum. When's the last time you actually posted art here, instead of just flaming people that worked? When? I certainly can't remember. You have no right to bitch. 15 year old K0rn children like yourself make me want to strangle baby jesus with his own windpipe. I hope you rot in your own shit.

As for the rest of you newly registered idiots; I've seen a few of you that actually have talent, as well as putting genuine time and effort into your art.

You people already know who you are. I don't have to name you.

However, the rest of you...The rest of you can suck my nine inch cock. I don't fucking care if you think you have the "right" to post here. Get a fucking grip. Buy some books. Once you stop drawing like six year old children and start producing quality art, no one -- I mean NO ONE except your fellow chocolate starfishermen will respect, or even think twice about you.

The first 8 or 10 months I spent here was fabulous. This was a forum for intellectual, motivated and talented artists to collaborate on work and techniques together. As Isric so eloquently said; The streets were paved with gold and everyone could fly. People didn't needlessly pat each other on the back, but offered genuine constructive criticism.

Masters like Danny Guertsen, Fred Flick Stone, Spooge Demon and Loki have all but been entirely driven away by you mindless fucking troglodytes. You fucking idiot newbies are no better than cheap knockoff modern "artists" like Jackson Pollock who dribble paint or shit on canvas for 5 minutes and then call it art. I hope you fucking choke and die.

Goodbye.

I will no longer be posting here anymore.

P.S. To everyone here that DOES know me, that I've enjoyed posting with, I truly enjoyed the time I spent here. You guys are one in a million.

[Lunatique]

Well, I think I would say that we pretty much all agree that a newbie is NOT someone who is new to the forum. Many professional artists come here for the first time and post stuff that blew us away. My idea of a newbie is in the artistic sense--someone that needs basic art instructions.

If we implement my weird art school system, this is how it could work(you guys add to this any other cool ideas):

If a newbie comes, and is some 13 yr old, and draws stick figures, he/she will be a "novice artist." This person will have to practice, learn, and improve to graduate to "learning artist."

If a new member joins, but is already an accomplished artist, his/her post will definitely cause a stir in the newbie section because it's much more advanced than all the work posted there. So, immediately, someone from the newbie section will post a "suggestion" for this new member to be immediately "graduated."

We can also organize workshops, much like the ones Spooge and others used to have here. We will actually title the thread something like "Workshop # x-- using diffused lighting/low contrast to create the illusion of seperate planes of focus...blah blah." The "instructors" could take turns and trade off the teaching if some become too busy to participate.

Anyways, these are just some ideas. I suppose if I had the free time, I'd run a forum like that. An actual online digital art school that is free to anyone who wants to learn, and the teachers are all volunteers.

[gLitterbug]

That sounds like a good groundidea to me Lunatique, but who am I?

I�m not completely sure about this artschool system. But I�m sure IF something like that gets implemented here, there will be put some thought in it before it gets launched.

I don�t think I understood 100% how that art-school-system would be like.

[-Tepox-]

hmmz... Lunatique has some good ideas...

[Breakerboy2]

Man, I chose one hell of a week to register here.

I definitely think the "art-school system" has potential, but there's got to be a way to do it without insulting those that come here to learn. The basic premise for Lumental is a great and useful one, but they belittled a lot of people in their rhetoric. The fact that they use the word "eliitist" so casually is a bit disturbing. But to be perfectly honest, I'd be honored to get feedback from those with as much experience as they have.

One of the things that disturbs me about this thread is that so many people seem to think that it's their god-given right to get crit's from people who are at the head of their respective fields. It's a rare opportunity that should not be taken for granted. Not that anyone should be put on a pedestal, but these artists have worked extremely hard and have paid their dues to get where they are. If they want to have a place where they can get advice from their peers, they've certainly earned it.

Granted, they need a better writer for their creedo...

This is just the opinion of someone who is trying to be objective. Take it or leave it, but this whole thing really isn't worth bursting a blood vessel over.

Whoever at Lumental said that we aren't all equal is very correct, and that is exactly what motivates us to be better.

[jr]

hey mike, forget about all that nonsense, just continue posting your work, and i'll post mine. this is an artist forum.

[Breakerboy2]

Rock on.

[Rinaldo]

As I have said. The problem with Faust and person A. was that the admin of Lumental lied in the inagural statement. tempting people to join up, and suggesting that they would take in people who were serious about art.
where in fact they had no such intention. they did not tell anyone about this, untill after blowing off a few people. who were lead to think that they were rejected becuase they do not meet the the stantards set out in the statment. when in fact they were rather reasonable and lot of people here would meet them.

you can read in the discussion thread about what the admin is saying they want out of the place.
In theory there is nothign worng with the Lumental boards are for. but the admin's attitude in personal conversation with people has been rather un-resonable. and I feel there are deep double standards and a lot of boasting. which is just sad. it puts a bad spin on it for everyone.
I have prolly gotten way to hot headed about all this with a few people. but particualr attitudes just make me really pissed off.
it is one thing to start a nice quite forum for serious artists. but another to go around preaching and boasting to everyone.
the incidents are few. but it still casts a bad name on a few people, and reflects badly on lumental in general.

[Flexible Elf]

Well i don't post here very often anymore but this is too damn juicy to pass up.

Wheras I can see how all of the people who are now on Lumental.com have gotten fed up with flames, etc. here, I also, on the other hand, think that starting a 'country club' of sorts was a bit harsh.

Part of the 'application' to get into Lumental is a website where your work can be reviewed? Man I don't know how that could be seen as anything but a bit snobby (though I know it's not the intention).

This board is seriously lacking moderation. It needs a few knuckle-wrapping patrol(wo)men. There's no question about that. Which is why I think if a new board was made, it should've allowed anyone who wants to join do so.. just be more strictly moderated to clean all the garbage and flames. But hey.. it's a free world (somewhat) so it's not my decision.

IMO there are no better or worse artists, just varying levels of experience and style. To say one artist is more worthy than the next to be part of something such as Lumental.com is something I could never do. It goes against the kind of person I am.

Though it would help me immensely to post on Lumental.com, I could never be a part of such a "we're more talented than thou" ideal.

This board will miss you guys.

This might inspire me to try and post more here.

-Flexible Elf

[Jaymo]

Lunatique: Well, sounds pretty nice, but sijun already HAS tons of members. How would you decide who already belongs to the advanced artists section and who has to start in the newbie section? I think this is a problem. Maybe the one problem making others start new forums.

I wonder what Dhabih's opinion is on that matter.

[Flinthawk]

As I've already discussed this with Flex, I second his feelings on this situation...

To restate the points I agree with, I feel that I would truly benefit from an environment such as Lumental...that it is the kind of environment that I could thrive in. But in doing so I would give in to that 'country club' mentality that I hate to see in many ways...the kind of mentality that has kept me from progressing in some way or another.

I, too, have thought that it is now time to take a more active interest in sijun.

-Flinthawk

[ August 02, 2001: Message edited by: Flinthawk ]

[gLitterbug]

Hm I�m sure there will be a very good solution to all the forum troubles.

I think the main problem is that dhabih doesn�t have too much spare time, if any, to use on this forum.

[Akolyte]

Me, Flinthawk, and Flexible Elf all agreed on wrapped knuckle action in PaintChat tonight. Promote us to Sijun Cop.

[gLitterbug]

I hope you are more sophisticated than the 20seconds-robot in Robocop.

[Blade]

Wow this is all being blown up to the size of something it needs not be.
Let them go to whatever board they want it's there choice not yours.

People this is American culture in a forum even if you dont live here.
Its the freedom, you have to take the bad with the good and if you cant then leave like those who couldnt stand it.
There also seem to be people getting themselves involved with this that dont need to.
If you were going to try to flock to lumental because all the most well known ones went there then do yourself a favor and stop it.
There will be others that will grow in strength of there art skill without those who were once here to show. Dont be some kind of fucking sheep, you CAN work on your art without them you dont need them.
YOU DONT NEED ANYONE BUT YOUR OWN SELF.

As for being hurt because they called this forum a swamp, SO WHAT, if you still react to namecalling then go back to your mommy because you havent grown up yet.

THIS WILL BLOW OVER and believe it or not sijun will not DIE just because a few people decided to join another forum. If you think it is going to break down just because of one bad event that happen between a few people then you should stop worrying because LIFE GOES ON and so do our lives.

If you dont think I hold merit or think I am just some newbie because you never even seen me post you might want to stop yourself because I have read this forum for more than 1 year and I have seen this happen to other forums too.
I know what I feel and if I cant get you guys understand whats in my head because I didnt get it across the way I want it to then this post was a waste but I am bored anyway.

[Mindsiphon]

I just read a bit more in depth at that forum and yes it is an elitist forum.

They pretty much bash Sijun and it's members there. How far can one's head be up their own ass?? How much do they enjoy it??

Setting up another forum is fine. But to blatantly say that you are an elite forum and membership will be granted upon personal
issues and not skill in art is something entirely differnet.

You members on that forum ought to be ashamed of yourselves. Especially if you know the motives of it.

I've lost alot of respect for alot people tonight.

*disgusted in the human race*

[Mindsiphon]

It seems like one of the Sijun moderators are on Lumental. I guess ones judgement gets clouded after recieving an invite.

[faustgfx]

hey visigoth (15 year old mansonite), when was the last time you posted art? or even a shitty half assed overpaint? same back at you. oops, damn, i got alotta years younger and picked up korn's music all of a sudden. oh well, your post's other words speak more than i can be bothered to throw back at you, so.. 'nuff said.

[Lunatique]

Well, here's an idea regarding members already on the forum: we just make a template that looks something like this which will be included into everyone's profile, and then we'd vote:

Mr. so and so's profile..blah blah...

His votes:

Instructor (12 votes)
Advanced Artist (46 votes)
Learning Artist (38 votes)
Novice Artist (5 votes)

Which ever highest number in your votes will determine what category you fall into. In Mr. so and so's case, he's now an advanced artist. Maybe we'll cut off the voting for a person once his/her total votes reaches a certain number(let's say 100), and this person will remain in that category for good. If in the future a certain number of members suggest that Mr. so and so has improved in the last 6 months, and should be considered for "Instructor," Another round of votes will be cast.

Argghhhh. I know this sounds a bit formal, but like I said, it's just an idea designed to motivate members to be more productive and strive to improve and learn, instead of flaming and posting sub-Drawing101 doodles.

Of course, the simplest solution is to have our current moderators be less tolerant of destructive/disruptive behavior, or add more moderators who are less tolerant.

I know that our moderators have been very tolerant because they believe in the freedom that we all enjoy here, but to be honest, I'd rather have the forum monitored more closely than have utter chaos. Freedom to let people cause destruction and anger to me is not worth it.

[Pat]

Bwahahaha! I noticed over on Lumental they redrafted their "Inaugural Statement" to conveniently remove all the poorly worded segments I objected to in my earlier post in this thread. What's the matter guys? The nasty stink of elitism a little too close to home?

-Pat

[A.Buttle]

Someone, please, hold me.

[balistic]

quote:

---

Originally posted by A.Buttle:
Someone, please, hold me.

---

You're one of them "fancy lads", ain't ya?

[Frosted Flame]

I don't entirely understand what exactly the big deal is.

I mean, I'm sure Jussi is completely warranted in whatever he is saying. It seems that he has been involved in all of this on a much deeper level than most of us. So, I admire his forwardness in the matter.

At the same time though, I don't understand why it's such a big deal to have a seperate forum for other artists? I mean, it is a free world (for the most part), and this is just the Internet. I mean, it's not like Sijun is their girlfriend and they are cheating on us. They have the right to make any decisions they wish, just as all of us do. If they want to move their input to a forum they feel is better suited for their level of expertise, than sobeit.

Just my >2 cents.

[Happy Man]

Worthless

[Ragnarok]

This is SO sad...

little eddie, attack please...

[mk]

this is all so disgusting.
You cant make art with your ego. But you can use your feelings... intressting so much feelings here just thrown away for a nonsense ego trip...sad.

mk