[mjmcchesney]

my pants are tight.

[Chapel]

I don't think the members of the other forum should be blamed for anything. Everyone likes peace and quiet every once an awhile. They saw this as that opportunity to obtain it. I just think they didn't fully realize what they had registered for till after the fact. After all the inaugural statement has been updated after one of the members expressed disappointment in the original one.

I come from the same group as most of those members. I was here when there was hardly any posts and I saw the forum gain it's popularity. I was here during what some people consider "the peak", and I've been here during some of the crappiest times. Right now most of the people who have been here along with me think that this is a really bad time for the forum. We are closely approaching 5000 members with really only two forums to post art. You have folks here who are like me and just browse the net all day and post to pass the time. That makes the forum move. Then you have those who like to make bad posts just to pass the time. That also generates traffic. It's like survivor island.. only we don't lose members we add them in huge groups. Eventually the ones who have been around the longest just can't take it anymore.

[Chapel]

quote:

---

Originally posted by roundeye:
bingo. you cant see what the big deal is cuz there isnt one. unless youre fgfx and youre trying oh so chivalrously to protect a girl who dosent need his help. its just a forum and this thread is so beyond ridiculous.

---

I know the whole story. I don't think it was appropriate for her to be treated the way she was. I don't think this is an attempt at chivalry from faust. You would have to be a complete total unemotional jerk to not stand up for a friend who was treated the way she was, and faust just proved to me that he isn't. FaustGFX and I have never exactly gotten along, but this post tells me he isn't as bad as he acts.

[MoleculeMan]

So i will try to sum up this thread so we can move on.

Lets stop talking about the forum and start talking more about the art.
We obviously need a third art board. Like maybe Work in Progress, Critiques and Comments WAnted, and Finshed/Polished Works. The first would be for what it is now, the second for people who want C&C with which to improve, and the last one for final polished works that are for oggling/"sucking up". Also all the lil guys appreciate Faust .

[Akolyte]

This complete thread is an utter display of insignificant fecal dumpage. How dare you put down some of the artists at Lumental? They have nothing to do with the disclosed incident between PersonA and Frost. This is completely unprofessional. Why is it such a bad idea for the hard-working, developed, talented artists to display their works in a civilized, moderated, and rule abiding forum? They, like myself, obviously dislike the unruliness of Sijun. I do not agree with mixing ghetto bitch remarks in with an evaluation/stereotyping of the professional artists at Lumental. I will continue to visit Sijun, but the kindergarten atmosphere is disgusting. Verbal attacks such as this seriously defines one's attitude and present stature. Pompous, irresponsible, and childish; this thread should be closed.

[PersonA]

quote

Quote:

But also, those who are belly acheing about how they were left out of this "super forum", you are in no shape or form better then anyone else. If they had got at you and told you they wanted you to be a part of this secret thing would you be gripeing about it now? Probably not... it's just the fact that your feelings were hurt in being left out. Admit it. Selfish, spoiled bastards. And you come forth like you've revealed some big scandal that's sooo damn important. Fuck that forum, fuck those eliteist bastadrs.... but if you weren't left out you'd be amongst those concieted bastard wouldn't you.

Actually that's not true at all. It wasn't until I was denied access that I even realized what type of forum it was. Yes, I knew lots of great artists were there. But no, I didn't realize that I had to go through some cheesy "approval" process to find out if I was good enough to be involved with the rest of them. Well, now I know I'm not. Oh well.

This is probably my last post here. I don't like the attention that has turned on me... I feel like most of it is more negative than I would like and I don't want that sort of vibe following me around while I'm trying to be taken as a serious artist :/

quote

Quote:

How dare you put down some of the artists at Lumental? They have nothing to do with the disclosed incident between PersonA and Frost.

You're right, they don't. The artists still have my respect. I just don't agree with the double-standards at Lumental. I think it could be a great place... but... well... I won't go there.

[ August 02, 2001: Message edited by: PersonA ]

[Awetopsy]

seriously.. Ive been visiting these forums for over a year (registered for almost 1 year) and I must say as a "non-newbie" I still feel like Frost and Snake-Grunger just insulted me; indirectly albeit, but nevertheless....

Im a pro artist.. but apparently not an elite-pro-artist.

Honestly I think Dhabih and the other moderators should start cleaning this place out but it is still Dhabihs place and I think him for it. I love Sijun Forums, personally, and I come here to see art and to help out with Art.

I think its really bad form when somebody takes a point of view that they are better than everybody else and so they can just call everybody else down.

Well guess what, some of us newbies and non-elites are actually serious about posting and giving and getting help.

[S4Sb]

Indeed. What will happen to this place? What do we make out of it? Sijun had many offspring thru the last months.

Francis Forum ( who is at lumental as well now), Fausts Forum, lumental, german forum. Where is sijun going to be in the future? Will it be like.

Francis Forum: Conceptual design
FGFX Forum: that off topic forum
lumental: 2 cool 4 u
digital decoy: german forum
Sijun: artsy fartsy newbie forum?

[balistic]

If anything, this just makes me want to post more stuff here. I'm presently doing some of the best painting of my life, but unfortnately its for a game that's still under wraps . . . supremely frustrating. I'll try and polish some of the private pieces I've been working on and get them up within the next couple days.

[Pat]

Balistic has hit the nail on the head. If people want to participate in an "elite" forum let them go. There are compelling reasons to participate, but ultimately it's digital inbreeding of the worse sort. In an effort to reduce the "signal to noise" ratio, they're offering up their exposure to fresh ideas so vital to an artist's growth. By limiting their ranks to the "elite" they're limiting themselves. The logical progression of this path are a larger number cookie-cutter artists producing homogenized work. I for one am savoring this irony... as many of the more notable talents have been very vocal about the unwanted proliferation of their personal styles.

In any event, a community with dubious "standards" for entry can only grow as far as the tastes and foresight of the people making those decisions. Frankly, given the poor manner Snake Grunger and Frost have handled this situation I have little confidence in their judgment.

Lastly, I find the rules they've outlined in their "inaugural statement" to be poorly worded and too restrictive, not to mention plain offensive. I love the "No hardware/software questions" bit. This is digital art, folks --and hardware/software questions are necessary to artistic growth at EVERY talent level. It's necessary to explore and examine these complicated tools we use, because it's only through challenging them that we can break away from their common "look" and fully realize our own styles.

Faust was right. Quotes like "...flagrant ignorance will not be tolerated." and "Amateur people are asked to read and learn, as novice/advanced people are asked to discuss." have the rotten stink of elitism about them. Artists learn by doing, not reading. I'd be embarrassed to participate in a forum which didn't even recognize this fundamental truth.

But here's the kicker: their basic argument:

"As previously seen on nearly all other web forums, the uncontrolled arrival of newbies has a great negative impact on the value and functionality of a focused forum. Such newbies not only tend to occupy 80% of a forum user�s database, but they also constantly support themselves, by false encouragement and appraisals, turning lies into truths, undoubtedly leading a forum to its own self-destruction..."

While probably well-intentioned, I whole-heartedly reject this assertion. In addition to being insulting to Sijun --from which they've blatantly emulated their look, software choice and tone, and from which they've parasitically assembled their "elite" ranks, they've incorrectly assumed that this forum is "self-destructing". Far from it. I've been to other digital art forums.... and this one is by far the most healthy, active and productive --Lumental's included.

At times I've questioned Dhabih's "hands-off" policy of forum moderation. There's a natural tendency to make something good a little better by excising the annoying elements. But sometimes those annoying bits are essential. The absence of conflict leads to stagnation. So let them make their "Elite Digital Paradise" --it will end as all utopia's do. Hands down, I'd rather have guys like Brian "Balistic" Prince and, god help me, faustgfx looking at my work. At least they understand the value of what we have here.

-Pat

[ August 02, 2001: Message edited by: Pat ]

[Glondus]

Amen to Akolyte.

This thread makes me depressed...

[Lunatique]

I really think that instead of dwelling on this issue, we should just concentrate on making Sijun into a great place it once was.

The best forum I've seen so far is The Drawing Board(http://pub54.ezboard.com/bcartoonandillustrationparadise66133). It's got a heavy emphasis on cartooning and animation, but there are game artists, comic book artists, and illustrators there too(pro and aspiring).
What's so great about that forum is that everyone makes an effort to be friendly and nice. I have not seen one angry, immature outburst there yet. I doubt Sijun will ever be that civilized, but it could definitely be better than it is now.

[Pigeon]

Hey, we'll just have to outdo them, and grow and learn from all sorts of digital art, and expand, rather than limit the definition of the art we do. Art is a way of life and work rather than any one particular skill. Let them be artisans, let us be artists.

Let the Van Goghs and the DuChamps and the Warhols of the digital art age rise from this forum!

Please excuse the melodrama

Dean

[dr . bang]

why can't the admin ban all the ahole instead of just locking up threads?

[S4Sb]

hah, and you would decide who an ahole is and isn't?

[NukleoN]

Personally, I like to post my work in many different places...and I like different things about different forums. I very much udnerstand why an artist might feel offended by the acceptance policy. I'd be offended too...I would not mind interfacing with 3D artists from Lumental but really, what does a rejection mean? Who cares? I mean, I could just as easily start my own forum with my own particular rules.

As for Sijun, I love the enthusiasm, even if it is raw at times. I love opinions of my work and appreciate anyone who is willing to sit down and labor over a post about my work when they could be doing something else.

I do not care whether the comments are from pros or not. Do we not all have eyes? When I work on video game art, the public (artistic or not) knows good art from crappy art, and it is reflected in user comments and sales.

Whether one is a seasoned vet or rank newbie...everyone's opinion matters..whether we agree with it or not. And believe me, I definitely don't agree with everything another 'pro artist' might say...they are human and prone to competitive spirit, jealousy as much as a newbie might be lacking with expert advise. However, I still appreciate the comments, the effort, regardless of whether I actually agree with the comment.

Ye can't please em all anyway.

[dr . bang]

quote:

---

Originally posted by S4Sb:
hah, and you would decide who an ahole is and isn't?

---

the admin would decide

[gLitterbug]

I just want to add some things.

For all those who say: "whats so bad about another forum, just for pro-artist?"
Nearly nothing. It is their falseness that is so bad about all that.
I mean look at posts and replies on lumental. I�m sure you will see what I mean.

Read the thread about the Inaugural Statement. Read it carefully. When I read it I can feel the "tension" and "fear" inside it.
Another thing that came to my mind when I read some posts and "critiques" on lumental is, that they made rules and don�t stick to them in any way themselves. Look at the statement that they don�t want replies that just consist out of praise for the work of an artist. Read some replies and you know what I�m talking about.
The thing that made me do the comparison to WW2 and Adolf was Snake Grungers Reply with his parole: "Mediocrity generates equality."

If they would have founded it in a different and more clear and honest way I�m sure it would have become a great thing.

Would they have made clear from the beginning that it is a forum for pro-artists who are their friends, I wouln�t have cared.
It just makes me sick, if somebody says that it also is a great place for amateur-artists, because they can learn by looking at the work of the pros and the comments they got. How should they? Nobody but the members would know about lumental, if it wouldn�t have been brought up by faustgfx.
That is what I hate about all that. This liar-attitude.
I remember when some pro-artists stated how happy they are when they can help somebody become a better artist. It seems like they now shit on that statement and shit on the amateurs.
Spooge for example, he has been worshipped on sijun like a god. I think it was too much for him, in recent times and he didn�t really like that praise-only. But I�ve read a post of him on lumental with 4 pics where 3 of them are VERY basic and in my opinion nothing to be too excited about, especially not if you�re spooge. But the replies consist of nearly only praise, as if those images would be the greatest on earth. Sure, I probably won�t be able to express that much with so little strokes, but I wouldn�t be proud of those images if I would be spooge. Here on sijun people have been told to put more effort in their pictures before they post it and on lumental spooge gets hyper-praise for 5stroke images.
That is something that hit me, because I had VERY high ideals about Spooge, not only as artist but also for his personality I thought he has.

For anybody who thinks I�m just full of envy because nobody asked me to come over to lumental. I really am not. If Frost would�ve posted a thread here on sijun with the link to lumental and stated it�s an elite-board where he and snake decide who get�s in I wouldn�t have even thought about trying to register there. For the simple reason that I AM NOT good enough. I�m sure I wouldn�t have been angry or disappointed about it. I would�ve tried to improve myself till the point where they would�ve asked me to join by themselves, because THAT would�ve meant something to me, I can�t and don�t want to deny that. I would also be honoured if they would invite me now, after all that happened, but I wouldn�t join, because I can�t identify with the way things are handled there.

I don�t have less respect for the artists that stay on lumental. Most of them are very good artists and see the place as a very good chance to improve themselves and surely to have fun too.
I�m a person who has many prejudices towards people, in both ways good or bad, and I make no deal out of it. BUT everybody has as much chances as he takes, to change what I think about him, also in both directions.
I would really like to talk to Frost about all that and get the thoughts he had about that all directly from him. Maybe he doesn�t care maybe he does. I DO. Maybe I care way too much about things, but that�s me. Even though that topic seems to be not half as important as it was yesterday, I still have very strong feelings about it.

I hope that nobody disrespects me for what I have said and gives me a chance to explain what I meant even further, if he isn�t sure he got my points or thinks I am wrong. I won�t change my opinion about the lumental-case. But people make mistakes and those who have the courage to admit them have my greatest respect. One thing I admire in people is if they are honest even if they get into trouble because of it.
Another thing I admire very much is, if somebody stands up for a friend and fights for him, even if he hasn�t asked for it.

faustgfx has done that and for that he really earns my respect.

I also want to speak out my admiration toward Rinaldo for leaving the maybe very helpful experience he would have been able to get at lumental behind him, because he couln�t identify with their ideal and for saying it out loud.

I also want to agree with balistic on what he said about critics from "normal" people.

Maybe that sounds like asslicking, but it�s not, I don�t try to slime me into their hearts or such shit. I�ve never even talked to balistic or Rinaldo. They surely don�t even noticed me, maybe now, since this thread here, but not before. The only one whom I talk to sometimes is faustgfx over icq and that makes me to one out of hundreds on his contact list I think.

If I have written something in my reply that is not right or just plain shit, contact me and tell me. As I stated above I�m probably far to emotionally whirled up to be objective, but I�ve my reasons.

[FireFry]

I'm suprised how immature grown people can act sometimes. Creating a forum that only the [elite] artists can participate in is a piss poor excuse at solving the spamming problems _that every forum has to deal with_. So what about those of us who don't have this killer art background on their belt. Unless I'm at their level I don't deserve to recieve their feedback?

Glitterbug I can sympathize with how you feel. I don't have an art background either, I joined Sijun hoping that what art pieces I do post I could get some feedback at improving my skill, because thats the only way I am going to learn. I too don't have much but I've learned to work with I got.

I don't think they (the "elite") are superior in any way, but if they believe they are then it's sad to see how petty they've become.

Just my opinion.

[S4Sb]

quote:

---

Originally posted by dr . bang:
the admin would decide

---

and how would he decide who an ahole is and who is good? Is someone an ahole if he/she posts anothe question like: "I can't draw should I buy a wacom now?" or "is photoshop or painter better"? What about the "post your favourite songs aholes. What about the aholes who post a scribble in finished work. Ban em all? That would be a tad too harsh, don't you think? But on the other hand, if you don't do it the forum stays the same.

[S4Sb]

quote:

---

Originally posted by NukleoN:

---

-Thanks. That's great

[dr . bang]

quote:

---

Originally posted by S4Sb:
and how would he decide who an ahole is and who is good? Is someone an ahole if he/she posts anothe question like: "I can't draw should I buy a wacom now?" or "is photoshop or painter better"? What about the "post your favourite songs aholes. What about the aholes who post a scribble in finished work. Ban em all? That would be a tad too harsh, don't you think? But on the other hand, if you don't do it the forum stays the same.

---

those are not ahole, ahole = ppl like st.neil

[gLitterbug]

I think the dr. means the extreme cases, that don�t learn, even if you tell them 100 times.

[S4Sb]

If you don't kick those the place will stay the same. If you only kick assholes like stneil then we have about 3 to 5 people less here. And that isn't really a big change

[gLitterbug]

I think what this forum lacks are some people that spread a good spirit among it�s members.

[Lunatique]

How about this solution: for glaringly obvious posts like "should I get a Wacom?", the moderator will just post a "search previous posts for this often asked question.", and then close the thread. Do you think that'll work?

For others like "your favorite music", will just get moved to random musings.

For posts of doodles in finished gallery, just tell the person once that those belong in WIP. If they are just elementary drawings from 13 yr olds, and he/she believes it IS a finished piece of work, then I suppose one of us forum members would have to politely tell the kid to learn the basics before posting stuff. But, see, that is very tricky. Younger members want to learn, and they want to learn from members of the forum, but having to give Drawing 101-ish critiques/advice is almost pointless and a waste of time for everyone. So how do we handle this?

[ August 02, 2001: Message edited by: Lunatique ]

[dr . bang]

here is a though that comes to mind mind. This board has 4500 members and there are only 3 (2) moderators, maybe we should increase the number of moderators, that might help the board. No, that WILL help the board!

[gLitterbug]

I don�t think it has to do much with the amount of moderators. I don�t see the ones we currently have do much.

We could need a moderator like Lunatique I think. I�ve noticed that he has much patience, but I�m sure if something needs to be done he would do it. But I don�t know if you�ll be able to find somebody with enough time to do it.

Your suggestions sound good in my opinion Lunatique, but as you said the problem with artists that stand at their VERY beginning is a tricky one.
I wouldn�t like to demotivate somebody by telling him his art is not good enough to get critique.
I am afraid myself sometimes that my art isn�t good enough to be worth getting posted and I don�t want to make other artists think I waste space with my work. I think it�s maybe hard to tell if your own work is worth showing and some members maybe tend to post very basic drawings, because they simply are happy about what they achieved.

[Mindsiphon]

Well I don't see any problem with creating a forum to escape the "Yo newbie here! Waddup peeps, check out my art skillz!" threads.

Nothing against newbies as we were all newbies once but there seems to be lots of crap coming through the sewerage pipes lately.

I would think the only way to solve that problem is to create another forum.

I don't know too much about this situation to throw any accusations so I'm not taking side, just stating my opinion.

Were certain individuals sent personal invitations to join? Did others artists (pro or amateur) try to join and were denied membership?

I don't think having an elitist attitude is to hot. So if the Lumental forum is for individuals who are considered to be "elite" then I can understand the hostility here.

[Lunatique]

Hmmmm

How about if Dahbih created another section to the forum called "newbies"? They can then post as much as they want there, and if the more experienced members feel inclined to teach the younger kids, they'll just skip on over to the newbies section and teach to their heart's content.

what do you guys think? Mirc chat channels have newbie rooms for people who are new to IRC, we can do something similar here.

gLitterbug --hehehe. I'm only patient until I'm ready to bitchslap. Believe me, if Dahbih is crazy enough to let me moderate, I would NOT be nearly as merciful as the other moderators. Any pointless insults, personal attacks, rip-off art, trolling, and stneil-esque behavior will get axed the second I spot one.