[bearsclover]

I have to agree with the others here, Light. I don't want this to be a pile-on - I think you are a bright fellow and have a lot of good ideas (not that I agree with everything you say!). But one of the important rules in life is that you have to show what you can do in order for people to have a point of reference. This is especially true when you are giving out critiques and tutorials.

I've written some tutorials myself, and I am a pontificating windbag, so I'll critique, but I make damned sure I have some of my own work to show. I'm not the best, but I want people to know where I'm coming from, skill-wise. And, hopefully, to give my words some credibility (or not - depending on how others see my work!).

And, whenever anyone critiques my work, I try to see what they have done. And yeah, their skill level will make a difference in how I view their opinion. I daresay that a high percentage of people feel the same way I do.

[sensoryoverload]

-oDD, you're doing quite well. For someone with no formal art education, I think you have alot of talent. I'm looking forward to more of you work. keep it up!

-rhombus, ever heard of a song called PortRhombus by Squarepusher? it's my favorite song in the world.

[bearsclover]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jayceeL:
Odd - Don't be so harsh on yourself. I am a great believer in, that everyone has got an ability to become a great artist. The talent lies in wanting it bad enough and wanting to spend the time and effort that it takes getting there.

---

That's it exactly. I mean, sure, "talent" is a component, but without dedication, you won't get far.

If it helps you at all, I started taking pottery classes years ago, and I had NO, I mean NO talent for the potter's wheel. I was the worst in the class. I saw everyone just take to the potter's wheel, and I was making these pitiful "lopsided thimbles". They were REALLY pathetic. But I didn't give up. Other people saw how I was - a true geek when it came to pottery. I remember making 50 mugs with handles, just so I could practice making handles! I practiced and practiced, and got better. Other students with more innate "talent" got tired of pottery and gave up. I didn't. I kept on trying, and finally got better at the potter's wheel. So much better, in fact, that new pottery students would tell me how much "talent" I had! (I always laughed and said "Oh, if you only knew...") Through the years, I have gotten my pottery into craft galleries and shops. Pretty good for a person with no "talent", eh? (Of course, there are people with FAR more innate pottery talent than me, but I made the most of what I had - and I am proud of the results!) Here's an example (this mug broke accidentally, recently though. *sniff*):

Anyway - here you are with some REAL talent - not the feeble little bit of pottery talent I had. So please stop worrying about "talent". So much of it is what you make of it anyway!

[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: bearsclover ]

[nevanlinna]

THIS IS WHAT I CALL A REAL THREAD!!!

Light: Just want to sat something to you. Your art, what you linked here, were !all! worse than oDD's. You know, I (we) can definitely see that you really do NOT have trained sketching from photo refs etc. (too small nose, big eyes, too short forehead...just for example).
You are just trying to make your self as an expert, who can give advices to anyone, and you want to be an expert, but you are NOT.
Just think about it..

hehe, though I'm a newbie(here, and with tablet) too, I can well say WELCOME to oDD!!

that's what I wanted to say...

[nevanlinna]

just want to compare a bit....which looks better, and who can give advices to who.


...
this is why I dont like your criticism Light.

[bearsclover]

Poor Light. Don't pile on him too much! Come on! Have a little heart!

But, I gotta say, Light, the cat's outta the bag. We know what kind of work you do. It's not bad - it really isn't. But it is not at the "advanced" level, at least not when it comes to drawing realistically (people, anatomy, etc).

That doesn't mean you don't have good ideas, valid points, or talent. You do. But remember - people will always ask, "Yeah, but let's see what you can do?!?" And you'd better be able to cough up something to show off your skills. Every time.

[pixelsoldier]

I too am getting bored.

You keep excusing yourself with the idea that everyone here somehow misunderstands what you're saying at exactly the same time, in exactly the same way. It is ridiculous to suggest that everyone just constantly doesn't quite "get" what you're trying to say.

It seems to me that you say things that you might think are somehow positive, but then when people call you on it and let you know that you're being an ass, you backpedal and come up with excuses as silly as "we all just don't understand your words".

Take responsibility for the stuff you say, don't try and blame them on our inability to understand your genius thoughts. That too, is insulting.

[jesusclone]

Hey that's some great work oDD. Too bad you're thread is quickly going to hell

--------------------


http://www.twigpeople.com/dmo

[jesusclone]

Good work oDD! It's really too bad that your thread is quickly going to hell

--------------------


http://www.twigpeople.com/dmo

[Snorkles]

Have you heard of that retard who could just look at a complex building for a minute, and then go home and draw an exact copy of it! I haven't read Light's "article" but I think that would be what he means by drawing from imagination. Astablishing a link from your deepest art-brain to your hand and pen. It's my dream to become a retard. I mean, why do we struggle with reference and shit when we got everything in our heads already? I would just like to be able to "switch" and become a pro in one second. Sorry if I got you wrong Light...

[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: Snorkles ]

[Baby Jesus]

"Yes, the picture is from vebjorn. If you read closely you will notice that the ones I said with "hack" or paint over were made to help other artist. This should give you an idea how old this stuff is. Most of it is quite old."

lemme get this straight.. YOU... were trying to help VEBJORN? you have serious mental problems

[nevanlinna]

j��-�. mycket bra...

[Beowulfthefallen]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snorkles:
Have you heard of that retard who could just look at a complex building for a minute, and then go home and draw an exact copy of it! I haven't read Light's "article" but I think that would be what he means by drawing from imagination. Astablishing a link from your deepest art-brain to your hand and pen. It's my dream to become a retard. I mean, why do we struggle with reference and shit when we got everything in our heads already? I would just like to be able to "switch" and become a pro in one second. Sorry if I got you wrong Light...

[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: Snorkles ]

---

They're not retarded. They're autistic. There is a huge difference.

[c]

odd i hope you take all these comments to heart. there is a lot of past discussion you can search in this forum. look up 'talent' and you'll get some interesting reading .

re: light

it boils down to this, light likes to jibber jabber. if you want to talk like an accomplished artist, you might want to be one in the first place. i don't care what you say. like if i had to go in for brain surgery, i'd seek advice from surgeons that know there stuff not with what they say but how they perform. a quackjob could talk as fancy as he wants but the proof is in the pudding you know?

on the flipside, there's NOTHING wrong with being a amateur and still offering constructive criticism. the best artists here will not hesitate for a second to say they too are 'novices' that have a lot to learn.

it's all in the attitude.

[Torstein Nordstrand]

This is quite bad, no? I think Light appeared in this forum approximately when I did, and I've seen a lot of his critiques. Almost every time he is offering advice it is to the point, usually valid and constructive. It's the way he goes on that annoys. What he is capable of producing himself isn't really important. Or does any art critique have to be able to reproduce a painting to give his estimations? I read what Light does, and usually agree, but I don't like his tone. When I see the name, I know it will be an intelligent remark, though uninviting and sometimes almost unfriendly in tone. Light, I want you around, but some people here need more encouragement than the easy "wake up, you're not doing it riiiight!!!" remark.

Light, I repeat, your comments are good standard, and I think everybody should dare give critique, no matter what artist... I remember Jason Manley being corrected (and rightly so) on anatomy on a published piece.

The ones more annoying in this forum than Light and Flat and the rest, is the young ones who always have to pick fights to be heard...

And Odd, I don't believe in in-born talent. As somebody else said, "after years of hard work, people were coming up to me saying I had talent". Your practicing seems to have served you well. We're all students here, even the Pro's are learning. Do something challenging, and when it's too difficult, post it here for us to embrace it in all it's faulty glory. That's what I do

[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: Torstein Nordstrand ]

[saladbowl]

I really like the sketches and I think there is nothing wrong about copying things to practice.
I bet I copied every character feng has on his site to practice and even though I still suck it helped me to understand things better.
Well...I guess Light is just making a point and expressing his opinion on copying, but I don't think he did that in an appropriate way... .
Everybody, I bet, started out by copying spider man comics or something like that.

[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: saladbowl ]

[iByrn]

Can I just make a comment not regarding Light here? This is for oDD (if you're still checking this thread).
I hate modesty. Sell yourself. Seriously. People don' want to see a self-conscious, whiny person beating themselves over the head about how they have "no talent" (obviously you have some talent). People like self-confidence. People like to be told how to think (just look at TV), and they like to be told what's quality work. So if you're serious about becoming an artist, you should develop the confidence to be able to tell people that you think you're good. It will nearly always make your work seem better.
[all: these are my opinions, please be civilized if you wish to refute them]

[bearsclover]

iByrn's right, you have to have confidence! Believe in yourself, and don't be afraid to stick your neck out. When you are so hang-dog and timid, you don't stretch yourself as much, and that's bad. And, don't be shy about saying that you are "OK". Don't poor-mouth yourself all the time. That's just irritating!

But, don't be so full of confidence that you don't think you have anything more to learn. And definitely don't be so confident that you shoot your mouth off too much, bragging and possibly alienating people. I know this is common-sense stuff, but we all fall prey to either having too much ego, or not enough. Finding that balance is tough sometimes.

[leechmeister]

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics- even if you win, you're still retarded.

[nevanlinna]

hehe...pixelsoldier.
that's right...!

[Light]

yawn.. hey that picture was made without reference or copy plus it is old.

Why not comapare some of my better work?

Lets see..



-- Made from memory with mouse.



-- Painted with mouse from short term memory (original creds to a scene artist)



-- Original 3d work.



-- Original painting made with no reference and no copy.



-- sketch on paper.. copied. poor shading quality but anatomy is right (and could be turned into quite nice work) original brom

--------------

Cut.

These are all old too! I've others that I feel are better but are not very main stream and may not be understood well (like pilgrim is one of my favorites).

Anyway, none of these have been made recently except some of the paint overs. And none of these were made with the new powers of imagination I discovered. Btw, in my article it says I just discovered them.

Also, check out the thread in "work in progress" or an example of my recent tk paint over.

But, the logic that one is qualified by their skills or showing work is often given primary weighting because most things don't come for free like my article or critiques. A lot of people would pay for the critiques I give. So, obviously it is hard to determine how much someone knows.

However, this "second rate logic" if taken too far will result in disastourous assertations. Like, what if a pilot required the scientist to be able to pilot a plane to hold his theories regarding the limitations of the plane seriously. .. Or imagine having to compare all of the statements here against the people's art in order to see which statements are most true.

Or imagine the converse of this type of logic where someone who couldn't "pontificate" on art shouldn't be considered a good artist -- no matter how good their art is. Especially, the austic artist would be in trouble.

Anyway.. I'm not the best and never claimed it. Although, I expect I will turn out some pretty awesome work soon -- at least in my opinion.

Don't worry about upsetting me as I tend to take what I like and leave the rest regardnig comments on my work. Everyone else would be better off if they did the same. =)

[nevanlinna]

heh. you say "anatomy is right", with that women with juting out lips, and women with VEERY small legs...
well, we really see that you haven't used a ref...
sorry dude...

[po.ck.ket]

hehe...light just made you all look pretty dumb...

he is giving advice for free..you dont have to like it...but he is mostly accurate..

nice work.

[pixelsoldier]

Haha, oh yea, I feel incredibly dumb now. You obviously don't interpret the English language all too well.

Like I said, I'm done arguing. Frankly, it isn't worth the effort. I've said what I had to say, and some agree and some don't. It's just an opinion.

[bearsclover]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Light:
Why not comapare some of my better work?

---

Why didn't you show some of your "better" work before?

Some of these drawings are very nice. Well, the top one is very nice. I can't speak for the 3-D one, since I don't use 3-D software. I don't know how much of it is you, and how much of it is the software. (I don't know, I'm tellin' ya!)

quote

Quote:

sketch on paper.. copied. poor shading quality but anatomy is right (and could be turned into quite nice work)

No - the anatomy is not right. IMO.

quote

Quote:

And none of these were made with the new powers of imagination I discovered. Btw, in my article it says I just discovered them.

What? You wrote an article?!?! What's this? And ARTICLE?!?! And you've been so shy about mentioning this ARTICLE!!! (Sorry, I couldn't resist. Sheesh. I see you used some self-restraint and didn't link to your article yet again! ) I'm just teasing ya...

quote

Quote:

But, the logic that one is qualified by their skills or showing work is often given primary weighting because most things don't come for free like my article or critiques. A lot of people would pay for the critiques I give.

What? Who? Where? What are they smoking? (I am JUST KIDDING. Like I said before, I think you are a bright fellow. A bit of an ego, but a bright fellow.)

quote

Quote:

So, obviously it is hard to determine how much someone knows.

Not really. I know that Burne Hogarth knows a lot. Andrew Loomis knows a lot. Their work was good, their words were good. (I had a class with Hogarth. Man, could he draw! And could he pontificate!) He was opinionated, I didn't agree with all that he said, but he KNEW a lot.

quote

Quote:

However, this "second rate logic" if taken too far will result in disastourous assertations. Like, what if a pilot required the scientist to be able to pilot a plane to hold his theories regarding the limitations of the plane seriously. ..

Wha...? Is art a life-or-death thing here?

quote

Quote:

Or imagine having to compare all of the statements here against the people's art in order to see which statements are most true.

What? We all use our own discernment to decide who we want to take most seriously. If someone has a "beginner" talent, we ought to be able to take that into account when assessing the value of their opinions.

quote

Quote:

Or imagine the converse of this type of logic where someone who couldn't "pontificate" on art shouldn't be considered a good artist -- no matter how good their art is. Especially, the austic artist would be in trouble.

But no one is claiming that artists are no good unless they can pontificate. We are saying that artists who pontificate out to be able to "put their money where their mouth is". Talk is cheap, after all.

quote

Quote:

Anyway.. I'm not the best and never claimed it. Although, I expect I will turn out some pretty awesome work soon -- at least in my opinion.

Hope and ambition is great. Good for you. But "I will be able to" isn't the same as "I am able to". Just so you know.

[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: bearsclover ]

[po.ck.ket]

bah..i'll let that slide...

you have no idea "soldier"

[nevanlinna]

yeah. good opinions here, I guess. Just take it oDD, and do what you heard. And one thing, have you noticed that anybody here did NOT criticize your sketches (exepting Light who commented your style to make them), because they REALLY WERE talented and good ones. You understand?
So get off that self-pity, and keep up the good work!

[jezelf]

using reference is essential. where its a photo, 3D, life, using a mirror, gray's anatomy, whatever. I believe you can never have too much reference. we all learn by observation - from day one as a child, you're learning through observation.

I find it a bit odd that people post stuff sounding they chuffed about using no reference for an image " hey look I used no reference for this - aren't I great!" kind of thing. normally, that case proves to be the oposite.

To be a good artist you should spend most of your time observing. who the hell cares if you used reference? as long as you are original in your final work.

There's a lot of work out there from people who don't bother with ref - and it shows. Especially when it comes to anatomy. people draw what they *think* they know is right - not what *is* right.

Plus, copying isn't a bad thing if you're training. A lot of great masters work were copied by students to get technique right, so just because we live in another century doesn't make it wrong to do.

As long as when you are ready and done enough training and learning from others - be original. why waste time copying another's work when you could invest your time (and learn better lessons) making your own reputation and exploring your own imagination? reference etc, are just tools - its how you use yout tools thats important.

anyway - just my humble opinion. looks good oDD. keep going, and thanks for showing us your work. hope everyone else is doing some groovy work - good luck to you all.

best wishes
jez

[oDD]

once again thanks for the comments and suggestions. I'm taking notes so you are not wasting time =]

about modesty

I can't change the way I'm thinking about myself so easyly. And To tell you the truth i don't want to. Some times i'm proud of what i have done so the situation isn't so bad. But i promise you i won't comment my stuff so much because i can see it's irritating.

quote

Quote:

When your doing your finial sketch... lose the hatching... do "One line One Draw" this will make you drawings look very professional.

Could you show me the picture ilustraiting this because I'm not sure if i understand When i draw something i always have to draw alot of lines to get it rigt. And when i want it to make it clean then i use erasor, that makes the image look worse and the final line is bold.

Ligt: I can understad that one drawing is better than other because the fist one is oryginal and the second one is a copy. but i cant agree with statement that picture is good only because it's oryginal.

ps.
bearsclover: cool mug u got there

[Light]

Odd:

Hmm, I didn't say a picture is good only if it is original. In fact, a picture that is only original and offers nothing else is not worth a whole lot.

A lot of things can be original and worthless.

Originality in my opinion has little to do with or not copying. Originality in my view is creating artwork that doesn't already exist. Of course, I think it is great if the artist such as Brom can do something that doesn't even exist in reality and employ his imagination even more.

I'm not going to argue the virtues of this anymore. It is my personal opinion and stems from my interest in fine art and fantasy art. If these are not the types of things that interest you then you probably will have a harder time understanding where I'm coming from.

Art is different for everyone. For some people art is painting rocks and mail boxes and for others it is trying to create a new piece of great art that doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. And for still others it is just making a paycheck.

But, let me ask you this -- why copy other artworks?

Why copy other art when there is a whole world, a whole universe both internal and external, and things all around you that are fleeting but could become art ?

Why copy other artist rendition of people when there are 5 billion people in this world living and dying with stories to tell?

Why copy other fantasy art when people believe that the brain records an image of everything it sees and is well known for its ability at creating illusions and its powers of imagination?

...

I guess what I'm saying is that if you want to copy then that is your point.

But, I'd rather try to enjoy the complexities of reality both internal and external.

The answer to why do artist copy other artworks when there billions of times more value in their own minds and in the reality around them is that copying is easier.

Drawing from reality is harder as things are changing all the time. There is too much detail or not enough. The colors are not selected for you. The view is not selected for you. The medium has not been selected.

Other issues will crop up when trying to draw from the imagination.

I think copying other art is good as it allows you to work on your rendering, your shapes, anatomy, and 'style'. But, the artist shuold always be trying to learn these things and how to apply them to their own work.

Snorkel:

If you read my article then you would know this is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about when Brom creates an original work of art from his imagination or when a master painter purposefully paints a portrait in a certain way to bring out something special.

I think "retard" is a bit of a derogatory word.

But, who is the "retard" -- the rare autistic savant who can look at a building and then go home and with nothing in front of him copy it exactly and perfectly?

Or the student artist like many here who could work all day on copying it in from of them and make a mess.

Just think on this.