[oDD]

hello

i'm almost 21 years old. I ve been learning to draw for almost two years (by tutorials found on net because i have no art education). I've been visiting this board since then. Lately more regular. In the past I didn't wanted to post because i know i suck at drawing (well i suck at 3d art and making webpages too) but i can see that few people here are willing to help talentless peole like me =] so for start i'll post some of my stuff. If someone could say something about it i would be more than happy.

So what your impression about my sketches ? what they got in common that u find most disturbing? what should I change in my sketches ? On what features of my pictures i should concentrate more ?

All sketches are made from photo reference ( i never drawn anything from life and i know i should).

those were made about two months ago(ball-point pen):





few weeks later.. (pencil)







3 weeks ago (pencil , from loomis book (thanks for the book to the guy who posted it here))



then i made some breake form sketching because i bougth my self a tablet.

2 days ago , about 1,5 hour (pencil)





[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: oDD ]

[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: oDD ]

[eyewoo]

False modesty my friend... You are quite good. The fourth one down - head of a man - is excellent.

[Light]

All of these look good BUT they are just copies.


So what your impression about my sketches ?

They all look pretty good.

what they got in common that u find most disturbing?

They are all copied.

what should I change in my sketches ?

Do some original or from life.

On what features of my pictures i should concentrate more ?

Finishing them and originality.

...

Seriously, if you copy a photo then you should be able to (after a small time) be able to know what you did as well or not as well as the original.

There is nothing wrong with doing this as I've defended it many times. And, it can be good practice.

But where is the art?

[pixelsoldier]

Light..

All of your critiques are incredibly abrupt and abrasive.

"Where is the art?"

Who the hell are you to define what is or what is not art? I definitely see the art. So do others, apparently.

Show us some of your work, Light.

[eyewoo]

Hey light... I'm not sure you understand what you are writing... Of course they are copies... all art from a reference, whether it be in the flesh or from a photograph is a copy. Some might even argue that art purely from imagination is a copy of that imagination - of an image in the mind.

So... cool it, my man. Think before you shoot from the hip. Your arguement may hold water, but not in the way you have presented it.

[edible snowman]

i think he has a good plan going, it looks like he's doing a lot of studies instead of jumping right in and starting to draw from his head. it should lead to faster improvement. however, he does have a point. if your ultimate goal is to be able to work from your own creativity you might want to start moving in that direction eventually.

[Light]

Hmm, I'm not arguing that "copying" is not art but art is suppose to "say something" or "express something" about the individual or from the individual.

Btw, if you read my post carefully you will notice I said "they all look pretty good" and "there is nothing wrong with copying".

What, I guess I tried to say is these do look good and it is time for this artist to "progress" to trying to express something more original. Something I haven't seen before!

If you work from your imagination, a photograph, or reality it is all copying. BUT (qualifer) only some of it is art.

-- But I dont want to get into what is and what is not art because everyone has their personal definition on the matter. And many illustrators perphaps do not have much to say on the matter.

If this individual considers this to be his artwork then that is fine for him and I wont argue about his view of the matter.

Odd, but if not then I suggest you take some photographs yourself and try to "express" or bring out something in them you like. You'll be doing two artistic things -- deciding what to photograph and painting them or bring out what you like in them and leaving the rest. Plus, it will be original.

If you dont want to do it this way then check out my article at http://light1.home.mindspring.com/magic.txt.
This may be very helpful.

You can even create art by copying other peoples work. But, you can't unless you start to "speak" on the matter. By speak.. I mean artisticlly. Yes, you can speak without doing original pictures but you are just "more limited" in what you can say.

Another point is some of these are figure studies.. You can learn a lot by copying other peoples gestures and themes but the purpose of doing quick figure studies is to develope your own ability at creating balance, rythym, and anatomy.

This artist need not look at my statements as negative really but as positive in confirming that I believe he is at a stage where he would be better off going to the "next level".

One other point is he asked what I thought and I told him. Most of what I said was said as advice and not in any way negative or harsh. My comments on work are very rarely negative or harsh.

[c]

hehe odd, ignore light he kinda likes to ramble (cough magic.txt) and stuff.

light i wish you would show more of your work. i have seen some original threads from you but i thought they were like, mocking flat[666] or something. i couldn't tell if you were serious.

odd your work is really nice. check out ian jone's reply in the digital art discussion, lots of good tidbits there.

aside from just drawing alot, and taking life drawing/painting (you'll hear that suggestion a lot), ultimately it will be you who decides how and what you will learn. there are endless resources, offline and online, it's just up you to go and seek them out.

regards.

[BASTION]

My opinion is don't change anything about you're skethes, they are great. I love the first few on graph paper, it's good how they show you finding the shapes and roughly blocking in areas of dark and light values (especially the second one)

I strongly suggest drawing from life and also out of your imagination. Try drawing a pose you have never seen before and work out how the anatomy works in the new positions.

Basically, just keep drawing

[nevanlinna]

hey odd. your art looks very good! You know there are people like "Light", who just want to critisize. They are so proud about themselves, that they just want to pull down other people. And just one question to "Light": How do you know that these pictures from Odd were all of his images. Maybe he has done a lot of other....just showed some of them, and right after there are YOU who put a dumper, and make Odd feel bad.
I think you understand a bit of these, though I do not write vey good english....
THAT's IT!

[bearsclover]

Very good. You have talent. Don't ever say that you have "no talent" ever again. Just DON'T DO THAT.

When you are a "newbie", (and even when you are not a newbie) you "copy". And that's OK. You need the confidence in your drawing skills, and that only comes from practice, "copying", practice, drawing, drawing, drawing, and, oh, by the way, did I mention...drawing?

As you draw, and draw, and draw, you will discover your own identity, and discover what it is you want to do with you art. It's already coming to you. Experiment with texture and color, try out new ideas, absorb the things you read on these boards, in art books, keep drawing, experimenting. And don't worry if you create a "dud" or a real loser of a drawing now and then. We all do it, it means nothing. It's just one of those things. If you want to be an artist, accept that you will create duds once in a while. (Not that I am implying that I see any "duds" here - I just wanted to give you a heads up! )

Bravo. What a wonderful talent you have! But - remember, talent is only part of it, for you have already discovered the most important part - PRACTICE! Striving to learn more, and practice! Even if you only had a feeble little speck of talent (which you don't - you have a lot more than a "speck") you could make it grow and flourish through dedication and practice!

Light: Is there any need to be so blunt? And, I will add my voice to others here, and respectfully request that you show us some of your work. I haven't seen any examples of your artwork yet. I sure am curious about it. And, I might add, seeing your own work will help us put your "tutorial" into a better context. (I've never read an art book or art tutorial that didn't have examples of the artists' work included in the text.) Hey - I am a pontificating windbag myself, but at least I show some of my artwork too!

So, come on. Show us some of yours, could ya?

[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: bearsclover ]

[Uninvited Guest]

HEY.....a new art NAZI......

I love people like that......really

[Svanur]

quote

Quote:

Hmm, I'm not arguing that "copying" is not art but art is suppose to "say something" or "express something" about the individual or from the individual.

Last time I saw someone "express himself" with art, he was standing on a phonebook, bound to it, holding one pencils in each hand which touched a nearby wall and then he began to jump and jump and jump and jump......

Give me anything but that.

oDD just keep on drawing, everything you draw, even from photos, are artistic vocabulary being hammered into your brain and if you like to draw more from photos/still life than from your imagination, just do so. Do what you like the most, I think that is the most important thing a one person can do.

[bearsclover]

Svanur, wonderfully expressed. You got it in a nutshell.

[Kaete]

No drawing on graph paper!

Yes, I know the siren call of a blank sheet of paper, even if it does have lines on it. But try to start carrying around a little sketchbook in case the mood hits you.

Also, I think you should do a little life-drawing, so that your pictures are less static. No, you definitely don't need a paid nude model! Just ask a friend (fully clothed to move around for you. Or if you find that too embarrassing, head to the gym or the mall.

Good potential. And just so you know, nudity is allowed in this forum but you should *always* put a warning in the title of the thread. The character sketches wouldn't need a disclaimer, but the lady getting undressed and fondling herself might raise some eyebrows.

[oDD]

thank you for the comments.

quote

Quote:

False modesty my friend...

about 6 years ago when i was deciding what kind of school i should go to i said to my mother:
"i like to draw, and i spend much time doing some graphics on my computer, maybe i should chose some art school"
she replied
"son , but u have no talent.."
When i was younger i liked to draw and I could see that i can do it easier and with better reasults than others (like my brother for egzample). But I was never able to draw something more coplicated like a human figure. So i was saing to my self you got some small talent but its too small to make complicated stuff. About two years ago alot have changed since i started reading some tutorials on drawing...
I practice a lot and i can see the progress (i can draw something that looks like human now ) but still comparing to what i would like to draw like, there is a huge gap.
Theres a girl in m family that goes to art school and although i havent seen any of her works i whould be to shy to show her some of my stuff.
I know a guy that draws very good, when people look at his stuff they say "wow, You 've got such a great talent", guess what.. i can try very hard but they won't say something like this to me (i cant blame them because i think the same)
I remember discussion about talent on this forum. And i don't want to start another one here. I'm writing all this because i want to say one thing. All my life i never considerd my self as someone that is able to draw "something good", i'm just trying to draw something good. As it was said that talent was a cup and practice was liquid filling it, well i think my cup is pretty small.


about Light's comment

thanks, I don't look at youre reply as a negative one. edible snowman commented it very good. All above sketches are practice, so when i draw from imagination i'm not so much limited by my skills (because i developed them in COPING (not tracing) pictures. And i draw from imagination! So when i asked what they got in common that u find most disturbing i was expecting the answear like "anatomy of women got something wrong", "you draw too big eyes" ect. As nevanlinna guessed: presented sketches are only few from what ive done. But i can see now i draw to much from reference, i practice and don't think about what i want to express in stuff i do. Your reply was harsh but i wont cry I didnt wanted to recive a reply like somene 2 weeks ago did -
"DRAW FROM REFERENCE !"

I will try to do more sketching from life and imagination because this is my goal.

BUT i think thoes COPIES (i hate that world =]) tell something about me...

some of my from imagination art:



my second picture made with tablet:



this was made yesterday for madival topic:



now u know why i have to practice =]

i got one question:
what do u thing about smoothing the sketch with a finger ? some people said i shouldn't do it but for me it gives beter results...

[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: oDD ]

[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: oDD ]

[jeromoo]

Greetings Odd, I used to think (about two years ago) that smoothing your pencil drawings with your fingers or tissue paper gives good effects, but actually that's only a false impression.

Ever since I entered college, I realise the importance of sketching with soft, normal and hard strokes of pencil. By mastering this technique without ever having to rely on the smoothing method, your drawing sense can really improve very much. Smoothing effect can sometimes make the figures look stiff and plastic-like,but give them beautiful and well-controlled strokes and you'll breathe some life into them! (I'm not sure if anyone can understand my imaginative writing! haha )

I bid you to keep on trying your best!

regards!

[Mindsiphon]

oDD you definitely have artistic talent and it shows through your sketches. Have some confidence in yourself!
I think sketching from life or a book is good training.
Some of that training stays in your mind and eventually you can call on it when reference isn't available.


Light try to break it up a bit and give some of the artists the credit they deserve.
Critiques are very helpful but only if they are justified.

BTW Light, I found your gallery on digitalart.org

Lights gallery

Why not post here for critiques?

Cheers!

[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: mindsiphon ]

[pixelsoldier]

lol.

Light, you really need to change your approach. You are in no position to criticize the way you do - EVEN if you're trying to be "helpful". I'd suggest you take your advice and apply it to your own work.

I also just noticed in another thread that someone designed a logo, and you replied in his thread trying to promote your design services. That is NOT what this is about. When you see work that needs improving, you try and help them move forward with constructive criticism... FOR FREE. You don't try and solicit yourself to remake their work.

Your ego is as big as a hot-air balloon. Consider me a giant pin.

[Light]

Ah yes those -- old and not so good. Those are a few years old and were made before I learned the new powers of imagination. But, still yet they were made without copy or refernnce.

If you want to see what I can do by using reference then look at these:
http://light1.home.mindspring.com/copies/

The ones with "hack" or "paintover" were made on this forum to help others. You can see I dont work too much on copying any more because (with work in progress) you can see that I know how to do it and it is not rewarding.

These were made btw not from pure copying but from short term memory.
http://light1.home.mindspring.com/originals/

These are all originals and they are old too. But, most of these were made without reference or copying.
http://light1.home.mindspring.com/sketches/killerfin1.jpg

This is one of my better sketches. A copy. On paper with sucky shading.

----

But anyway these are all very old and not representative of my skills. But, they are still pretty good.

You'll see my new work whenever I make it and I can assure you it will be high quality.

But, my art shouldn't be a qualifier for my logic. If my art was awesome THEN you would be be hypocrtical to change your views just because of my skills. Unless, you judge people based on their skills and not their beliefs and actions.

I wasn't going to post my art here because this is not my thread!

But, sense it seems everyone wanted it. You got it.

But.. when I speak of making art and copying just ignore me and the experience I speak from.

[Light]

A few more notes:

Pixel Soilder:

You'll notice that my comments on the logo thread were some of the most beneficial for the artist. I offered my services as he said he had a client and it looked like he needed some help (and no I'm not going to do commercial art for free).

You'll also notice that in this thread even if my comments were taken the wrong way they were what was needed.

Artist post work for "critiques" and for showing off their skills. A critique is not "google.. wow thats awesome" and a critique is not "that sucks. that sucks". A critique points out the flaws (few if they be) and good points of a work as I have done in this thread.

How many people have really critiqued this artist work besides me? Eh..

Last, Odd -- I think your black and white original is better then your copies. Working on copying is fine if its what you want to do. Tracing is good too. But, remember to think "how can I apply this to my originals". It is great to see that you are doing that.

[Light]

odd:

2 answers to your question. Smoothing with finger often leaves oil on paper and thefefore doesnt work too well after a few minutes. Second, it gets your hands dirty and makeing it very hard not to smudge the paper. And third, as pointed out if you are not quite good at burnishing then you end up with a mess (see my sketch). Pencil artist often like to include pencil strokes in the work to leave some quality of the medium behind but this is personal preference. You can smooth well (use tissue paper or anything besides your finger) then you can get good work but if your not good you'll get a gray mess. Ive seen many top notch professionals end up with these messes so its not hard to do.

[rhombus]

LOL! Light you're the equivalent of an obnoxious fan at a basketball game trying to give Kobe Bryant advice on how to play.

I'll give you credit for showing your work after all your harsh critiques. You're probably opening yourself up to a lot criticism here. But, I really think you need to look at your own work before you start ripping apart some of the people here who are significantly more advanced as artists.

I remember you gave Socar Myles a pretty harsh crit a couple of days ago. Dude! Have you compared his work to yours?! You should be asking him to give you a lesson instead. I think your level of expertise does affect how seriously your opinion will be taken.

BTW: Nice sketches oDD! I think you tend to draw eyes a little large sometimes... that's the only thing that I consistently noticed. I think you definitely have a talent for drawing. Good luck to you!

[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: rhombus ]

[Snorkles]

http://light1.home.mindspring.com/copies/vebhack.jpg
I remember that pic. Wasn't it verbjorn who posted that? Mayby it was you, bad memory.

[pixelsoldier]

There is a difference between constructive criticism, and negative criticism. Your comments always come accompanied with insult. You talk to people as though they are beneath you, as though you have some higher knowledge.

Your skill level can't back up your words. I'm not going to comment any further on your work than that, because I don't want to sound like what I'm annoyed with in you.

You don't see Craig, or Loki, or whomever billing people for they paintovers they offer. Help people for free. Help them because you want to see them grow as an artist. Don't offer to help them for money with a level of competence that that usually isn't as good as the original artist to begin with. Ya don't see me suggesting to Craig that I handle the mattes for his latest film.... for a small fee. That'd be pretty ridiculous, wouldn't it?

You just have this arrogance that is incredibly irritating. You were just involved in another thread recently where you stated that Photoshop basically sucks ass, and that you could easily design a better title. I mean.. hahaha.

[Light]

Rhombus: If you believe "level of expertise" does affect how seriously your opinion will be taken then you too will need to show your work. Also, if you want to speak on who is "significantly more advanced as an artist" then you would need to have authority to speak on this matter. Unlike you I don't base people primarily on their skills, and I will disregard your logic outright without requiring to see your work.
I give my opinions and it is up to the individual to decide the merit in them.

Yes, the picture is from vebjorn. If you read closely you will notice that the ones I said with "hack" or paint over were made to help other artist. This should give you an idea how old this stuff is. Most of it is quite old.

[Light]

I'm getting bored. But Pixel, I do help people for free and it is constructive critism.

Also, I wouldn't consider the author of the phoenix logo the same talent of Mullins or Loki. I can, also, not state if it would be ridicoulous or not for you to offer Craig that. If he were behind and you are a good artist then it might not be ridicoulous at all.

I think the problem is, perphaps, people do not read carefully enough what I write or take it the wrong way.

I said I could DESIGN a better program. Design is not implementation. I, also, said something along the lines that I could implement one aspect of such program better given the proper development environment.

I never even said this was not art. I asked a question.

Anyway, perphaps I'll have to speak with fewer words as most people don't seem to be able to read what I have written precisely.

(yes that was arrogant but true.)

[HellSpawn]

Just a thought.... If your looking at characters and figures from art books to learn the best thing to do is to study the pose and the turn it... draw the same pose but from a different angle... Personally I find that's when you really learn to draw. It's a lot harder then you think and it solves the problem of what some people have been saying about just coping what your seeing...

When you practice this technique that's where you draw on your anatomy knowledge.

I'm not a big fan of drawing from life i.e. 'life drawing' cause your basically just copying again... Don't get me wrong then best artists 'always' use reference. Just that in the working world your boss needs that drawing yesterday so you don't always have time to find reference and you have to draw it on the spot.


So take one of those drawings and draw it 10 - 15 times but turn it slightly a little each time. Then draw it from above. then Below. If you can do that that's what will separate you from the newbie's and get you up to the expert level. But that's just for character drawing... you don't even want to get me started on perspective ;-) hehehe....

Good work on your sketches you definitely have talent keep researching and don't lose your thirst for drawing.

One last crit. When your doing your finial sketch... lose the hatching... do "One line One Draw" this will make you drawings look very professional. And when shading always shade lines towards your light source. don't just put hatch lines in every direction... I hope that makes sense.

Cheers,

- Shawn

[rhombus]

Pixelsoldier basically summed up my position. It's always cool to offer your opinion in a constructive, helpful manner... regardless of your skill level. I don't think someone has to be a master painter to offer a valid critique.

However, if someone wants to portray themselves an "expert" on a subject, then they better have some credentials to back it up. From the advice you're giving, you seem to be positioning yourself as an authority on drawing and painting. I mean, you wrote an article on how to draw from your imagination... one would assume you have some practical knowledge of the subject.

[jayceeL]

Odd - Don't be so harsh on yourself. I am a great believer in, that everyone has got an ability to become a great artist. The talent lies in wanting it bad enough and wanting to spend the time and effort that it takes getting there. Surely some people will reach the goal sooner that others, but if you are willing to give what it takes, I can say for sure that you will eventually get there. Good journey!!!

JayCeeL